Is this too much to ask my realtor to do?

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Is this too much to ask my realtor to do?

Ashley Benning
Woodland Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 98 posts · 40 votes

Hello, BP! I have realtors in California, Utah, and Arizona and am actively seeking my first property to fix and flip or--even better-- BRRRR. While they are sending me automated MLS listings (except for my CA realtor, who I think maybe forgot to set that up for me because he is crazy busy right now), I am doing the legwork of sorting through the listings and trying to figure out which ones are in need of significant repair. I then try to guess based on images and description what kind of renovation would be required, and then I email the realtor (or his team, in the case of my CA realtor) to ask for comps for the ARV. Once they send me the ARV comps I can run my little formula and see if it is worth offering.

I want to have a good relationship with my realtors, and definitely make sure our time together is valuable for both of us. I hope they will enjoy working with me and want to continue to work with me throughout my REI career. Here are my questions for you realtors and brokers:

1. To make my numbers work, I will usually need to offer lower than asking on these properties, sometimes significantly lower. When clients ask you to submit low-ball offers, are you annoyed? Am I making a faux-pas by requesting that my realtor make low offers that have a fairly good chance of being rejected? I mean, you never know unless you make the offer, but I also don't want my realtor to think I'm just wasting his time. And I don't want to waste his time.

2. Is it a significant amount of work to submit offers? I mean, I would LIKE to be submitting a handful of offers every week for properties in every state, and see who bites. But I hesitate to ask my realtors to do this because I don't know how much work is involved in this. If it's just a matter of a phone call to place a verbal offer, that's one thing. But maybe all offers need to be written out, and maybe it is a lot of time?

3. When I ask for comps for ARV for properties, is that something automated or does that take significant time for the realtor or his team to do? Ideally I'd like to create a funnel where I'm going through the MLS and picking 10 rehab properties each week that look viable, then asking for ARV comps for all those and based on those numbers narrowing to 3-5 properties on which to offer each week in each state.

I appreciate your insights.

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Ivy Wang
Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 95 posts · 76 votes
9y

It takes me anywhere from 10-30 min to do comps for ARV. It takes me anywhere from 30 min-60 min to write up offers. Most realtors want to receive written offers as there are other terms than price that need to be determined. A verbal offer is rarely done, unless you're an agent on HGTV. I don't like when clients are unrealistic and make low-ball offers unless I truly think they can get it for the "low-ball" price. My clients hire me for my professional advice, including how much to start at negotiations. I would not like writing up 5 low-ball offers for a client, unless I had a lot of extra time or an assistant.

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  • Ivy Wang
    Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 95 posts · 76 votes
    9y

    It takes me anywhere from 10-30 min to do comps for ARV. It takes me anywhere from 30 min-60 min to write up offers. Most realtors want to receive written offers as there are other terms than price that need to be determined. A verbal offer is rarely done, unless you're an agent on HGTV. I don't like when clients are unrealistic and make low-ball offers unless I truly think they can get it for the "low-ball" price. My clients hire me for my professional advice, including how much to start at negotiations. I would not like writing up 5 low-ball offers for a client, unless I had a lot of extra time or an assistant.

    7Reply
  • David Faulkner
    Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    You should be capable of pulling comps and determining ARV on your own, even if you don't have access to MLS. Even if an agent could/would do this for you, it is really important to get right as it is directly tied to your profit, so I'd still want to do it myself. Will be tough to find a deal with enough margin to flip off the MLS in CA, but if you do, you will need to act fast. I would advise going through the listing agent with your offers ... easier to put 100 offers through 100 listing agents that may double end it if they close your offer than to put 100 offers in through the same poor buyer's agent that at best will only make one side of one closing for all that work.

    How the heck are you planning on doing a flip or a BRRRR in AZ or Utah? ... you need to seriously reconsider this strategy ... way too many ways to get ripped off there. If this were your 100th flip and you already had the systems in place and team on the ground to do it, maybe I could get behind the idea, but to try this without too much experience and scale would be a non-starter IMO.

    3Reply
  • Paige Marie
    Real Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 36 votes
    9y

    I just had this conversation with my agent and here's what she shared with me:  because she knows 1) I'm an investor and 2) I'm serious when I inquire, she doesn't mind making the offers, and she understands why my offers will more often than not be less than asking price.  I do not ask her to run comps for me, simply because I do believe it improves my skillset.  I'm also not sending her every deal, rather I'm sending her the best ones after running the numbers.  Having said all this however, I still feel guilty because I'm aware it can be a great deal of work without guaranteed immediate return.  I also know some agents that charge a higher percentage or a flat rate for investors because they are chasing leads for them all day.  I suggest being up front with your agent and asking them if it's a good fit. 

    1Reply
  • Jacqueline Mann
    Rehabber · DC/MD/VA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    These are great questions. I have wondered the same things. Years ago, I found my own 2 rental properties. However, now I want help, but I don't want to run my realtor away. He's very responsive and helpful right now, so I want to keep that going. I hope people keep providing answers and insight in this thread. 

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  • Kris Lippi
    Real Estate Broker · Hartford, CT · Member since 2013 · 32 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    1+2) Low ball offers can be problematic if you take the approach of just submitting as many as possible and seeing what sticks. You are going to burn your agent out because while it is not necessarily that hard to submit an offer, it does take time and effort. That adds up when done over and over. It's not that it is annoying, it's just not the best plan and your agent needs to focus on activities that make money, consistently.

    Additionally, I would probably try to talk a buyer out of low balling houses that just came on the market. Even bank owned properties. It seems the banks are pricing close to what they want and do adjustments about every 30 days until it sells around the asking price. 

    But, lowballing a home that has been on the market for 90+ days and is vacant, estate/probate or distressed in some way can be a sweet spot.

    2) Doing an ARV for every single property you want to lowball will get annoying if you expect a report and analysis. Again, this takes time and effort.

    If they know the market well and can just give a range based on sqft, bed, bath, etc. That's doable. I do that for a couple investors all the time. But they also know the market and just want to double check their thoughts.

    A good solution would be for your realtor to give you a dump of all sold comps in the area you are looking for property. You can get both an excel format and report with pictures. 

    Ask you agent to meet with you for an hour and show you how to do a few ARV's. If your market changes rapidly, have them send you updated sold data every month or so.

    This way you can start figuring out ARV by yourself and you will be in a better position to work with your agent more productively.

    I guarantee if you do those 2 things, your relationship with your agent will be solid.

    1) Form a plan around submitting low ball offers

    2) Get sold data from your agent and figure out ARV on your own.

    5Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9y

    Why not just partner from someone already doing this? For instance a deal with J Scott or Brandon Turner etc.

    Learn from their network and experience. You place smaller amounts of capital per deal in a partnership for example.

    It just seems trying to rehab and have a team in an unknown market all on your own because you think it's a deal can be a recipe for disaster.  

    Show the broker/agent your ability with cash and then tell them what you want. It's better to know upfront.

    The skill level of the broker/agent usually determines demand. They won't let any one person take up most of their time unless they are getting usually transaction after transaction off of them.

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  • William Hochstedler
    Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I too am interested in what your strategy will be if you do get a property under contract.

    But to your question, I don't think you're giving your agents enough credit here. You should be working with agents that will know right away if a property has good flip potential, whether it's worth making a low ball offer, etc. For example, under market REO's are getting 10-20 offers and selling for 10-20% above list in some of my markets. I wouldn't write a low ball on this for you.

    There is no doubt that, even in hot markets, there are sellers willing to accept low-ball cash offers.  You will have a tough time convincing a real estate agent to both run comps for you and make offers without any more screening than your analysis from 500 miles away.

    However, if you were to pore through everything that hits the market and look for anomalies like photo opt-outs, frustrated listing agents (from their comments), etc. you might be on to something. 

    In other words, making me do a ton of work so you can do analysis to determine what level of offer to make assumes that I don't know anything about my market.  I can look at 100 properties in 5 minutes and tell you the best ones to make offers on.

    So find agents that are knowledgeable in what you are trying to accomplish and follow their lead instead of making them do a bunch or work so you can feel comfortable with their markets.  That's what due diligence is for.

    3Reply
  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    9y

    If you are looking for your first deal in three separate locations and using agents in each one and they know that, they will first ask are you looking to and do you have the means to close in all locations. Because if not, you are going to be wasting two of the agents time. As an agent, in order to be comfortable with out of state buyers, I want to see a proof of funds and also know your plan for properties. I also want to use something like UberConference to make sure we have a good idea of how we both work.

    You are asking a lot of agents who don't know if you will do 10 deals with them if it works or if you are looking for the best deal with 3 realtors and when you find it, you will opt out of the other areas. Running comps is not simple if done right, especially for investors. You want to know block values, foreclosure prices, market prices, this all takes time so you need to show the agent if you are intending on making this a business and how you are going to do it. Automated comps are not comps.

    Any agent can put you on an MLS drip every morning, that's basic. In terms of all lowball offers, you have a much better chance of finding an agent to do this where you live. Being out of state and expecting an agent who you have never done a deal with to look at the properties for you, do all the comps, assess everything and then basically be responsible for your purchase, all tied in with low-ball offers is going to be very hard.

    I hope this helps.

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  • Jon Lanclos
    Real Estate Broker · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 64 posts · 27 votes
    9y
    From a Realtor- it depends on the deal - if the properties need work, putting in low ball offers is not the big of a deal - if it has a lot of days on the market DOM, it's not the big of deal - it may be the only option the seller has - as far as putting offers in, it's just filling out a contract - not that time consuming - now comps take a little more time - I know it's just a search in MLS but depending on the volume, it takes a little time - find realtors who work with investors - they should be used to all of this - make sure you are pre-approved and and have funds to close otherwise you will may be wasting their time
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  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    Just to add something that hasn't already explicitly been said:

    I suspect most agents would be far more comfy with targeted lowballs than shotgun lowballs.

    Meaning you aren't just asking them to write a half dozen lowball offers on whatever just hit the MLS, but are targeting properties that have been on the market for a while or that are otherwise for some specific reason a good model match for this strategy.

    I've heard that some listing agents on normal retail MLS listings will get their clients' permission to throw offers in the trash without even presenting them if they do not meet certain criteria (offer price being the most common). In such cases, the real estate agent writing the offer is literally wasting their time with a 0% chance the seller will even see the offer, much less accept it.

    Although I suspect not many agents will come out and say it: you working with 3 agents = 2/3 chance they are working for free = spend at most 1/3 as much time as normal on this client. I'm not surprised that the one local agent is spending more time, simply because an in-person sale is easier to present and close than an email sale, meaning that this one agent probably has a better than 1/3 chance. 

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  • Ashley Benning
    OP
    Woodland Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 98 posts · 40 votes
    9y

    Such excellent feedback! Thanks so much everyone. I appreciate the push to learn how to be comfortable pulling comps on my own. It is a skill I am developing, and this conversation has solidified for me the importance of getting better at that quickly. 

    My takeaways from this discussion are:

    1. Get better at doing comps on my own

    2. Find a system for digging up those properties that would be more likely to sell for less--whether that be auction properties or doing yellow letters or working with a wholesaler or something else.

    3. Think again about my strategy to tackle three states at once, as asking realtors in each state to help me is not fair to the two of them who end up not getting me the next deal (at least until I can afford to do three simultaneous deals)

    4. Meet up with my realtors and have an honest conversations about my goals, and hear their suggestions.

    Just so everyone knows, I haven't yet started asking these agents to churn out lots of comps, or to submit any offers. I'm just a few weeks into this stage, and so I don't think I've done any irreparable damage to my relationships with them yet. :) Only my Los Angeles agent has found me a few ARV comps, about 4, and I would very much have acted on them if the numbers had worked.

    Now it's time to re-strategize. Love this community. Thanks to all of you!

    5Reply
  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    A lot of this depends on how low is low. If you think you're going to get 1 out of every 100 offers, then yeah, you're agent will get tired of that really quick. However, if you're working with an agent who mostly works with investors, they should expect to have to make quite a few offers. It also depends on how many properties you're going to buy.

    As far as the amount of work. A detailed CMA can take a while, but just pulling up some nearby comps is pretty quick. And most offers don't take that long, but some, particularly Fannie Mae, make you fill out a ton of forms.

    And another option you could consider is trying to become an agent yourself. Then you can write the offers and also have access to the MLS.

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  • Shelly Doris Milburn
    Property Manager · De Soto, KS · Member since 2017 · 58 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    In a nutshell. Yes. What you are asking for takes a lot of work. If you are working with agents that specializes in working with investors they may have some systems in place to streamline the process and/or be able to use one work flow to service multiple investor clients. That would be an ideal setup for the agent.

    If they have any hesitation in providing what you are asking for it could be (1) lack of historic relationship with you, (2) what you need is not their main business focus, (3) you are out of state.

    I think you can find agents in any location that are ready, willing, and able to service your needs but it may take some time to find the right fit. Also, the comps you want may be part of what is included in the saved search results they are sending you. You might want to ask the Realtors if their MLS allows for saved searches to send all statuses or only active status. If their local MLS limits what you can receive it will take a lot more work on the agents part to get you the comps for ARV.

    0Reply
  • Rick Wang
    San Gabriel, CA · Member since 2017 · 20 posts · 7 votes
    9y

    @Ashley Benning Great topic.  I've also had those same questions and this thread answered them for me.  I like your takeaways, they're solid.  I will be following them as well, especially #4.

    0Reply
  • Ashley Benning
    OP
    Woodland Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 98 posts · 40 votes
    9y

    @Andrew Syrios I am definitely considering getting my license. Thanks for the suggestion. My hesitation is two-fold: 1, I fear just royally messing something up with the paperwork, but that's just regular nerves about trying something new for the first time and I'm sure doing my homework would help with that fear. 2, I am wrapping up a master's degree right now and the thought of doing more school is giving me some anxiety. But I submit my thesis in a few weeks, and maybe then I'll be ready to jump into school again.

    @Shelly Doris Milburn I'll ask about the MLS saved searches. Great tip!

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  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by :

    I am definitely considering getting my license. Thanks for the suggestion. My hesitation is two-fold: 1, I fear just royally messing something up with the paperwork, but that's just regular nerves about trying something new for the first time and I'm sure doing my homework would help with that fear. 2, I am wrapping up a master's degree right now and the thought of doing more school is giving me some anxiety. But I submit my thesis in a few weeks, and maybe then I'll be ready to jump into school again.

    @Shelly Doris Milburn I'll ask about the MLS saved searches. Great tip!

    I can definitely understand that. But here in Missouri, it's only 42 hours (I think). I don't know how much it is where you're at, but it's not terrible usually, and should teach you all about those contracts.

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  • Shazia Chiu
    Real Estate Agent · Heber, UT · Member since 2016 · 56 posts · 46 votes
    9y

    Hi! I'm a realtor in Salt Lake City. There are some awesome points in this thread. With Utah, I've found that making lowball offers usually doesn't do much right now. Of course it depends on the property and the situation, but right now the market is so hot that those offers seem to get overlooked by many buyers. I think that @William Hochstedler brings up some great points about your other questions. 

    Good luck with your search! 

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  • William Hochstedler
    Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Ashley Benning

    I like your attitude, but still don't see you giving your agents credit for knowledge of their markets.  You are still talking about direct marketing and doing a ton of analysis.  Basically doing their job for them.

    Would you ask your attorney to send you all of the relevant case law so you can pore through it in order to instruct him/her on how to prepare your legal strategy?  The value that agents bring to the table is not just to help you fill out the relevant forms, but to help you find what you're looking for in the marketplace.  Find agents who can do that for you.

    You mention that you looked at a bunch of deals in LA, but the numbers didn't work.  If you were my client, I would have a discussion with you (ahead of time) about what your criteria are look at preparing offers for you on anything that meets those targets.  You can figure out the details (like running your own analysis) if it goes under contract.  

    I just think you are selling yourself short by thinking that you can recognize deals remotely better than a local real estate agent.  If this is true, you have the wrong agent.  You need to find professionals that will get you what you want because of their market knowledge (or set you straight if you're being unrealistic), not paper pushers who are willing to play blind-folded darts for you.

    To be fair, there are a lot more of the latter than the former.  Good luck!

    1Reply
  • Michael Kalisch
    Investor · Airmont, NY · Member since 2017 · 30 posts · 7 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @William Hochstedler:

    @Ashley Benning

    I like your attitude, but still don't see you giving your agents credit for knowledge of their markets.  You are still talking about direct marketing and doing a ton of analysis.  Basically doing their job for them.

    Would you ask your attorney to send you all of the relevant case law so you can pore through it in order to instruct him/her on how to prepare your legal strategy?  The value that agents bring to the table is not just to help you fill out the relevant forms, but to help you find what you're looking for in the marketplace.  Find agents who can do that for you.

    You mention that you looked at a bunch of deals in LA, but the numbers didn't work.  If you were my client, I would have a discussion with you (ahead of time) about what your criteria are look at preparing offers for you on anything that meets those targets.  You can figure out the details (like running your own analysis) if it goes under contract.  

    I just think you are selling yourself short by thinking that you can recognize deals remotely better than a local real estate agent.  If this is true, you have the wrong agent.  You need to find professionals that will get you what you want because of their market knowledge (or set you straight if you're being unrealistic), not paper pushers who are willing to play blind-folded darts for you.

    To be fair, there are a lot more of the latter than the former.  Good luck!

     Are you saying that investors should go into contracts blind folded without doing the numbers, just becuse a broker told them its a good deal?

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  • Ashley Benning
    OP
    Woodland Hills, CA · Member since 2016 · 98 posts · 40 votes
    9y

    @William Hochstedler You are completely making sense. I am finding it challenging to figure out what is the value a realtor adds vs. what I SHOULD be doing on my own, and also not being too needy or too controlling. Oh wait; that's my whole life. Ha!   I really appreciate your candor.  You make such a good point that a good realtor will bring deep knowledge of the market and the area, something I can't just calculate out on my own on the spot. 

    1Reply
  • William Hochstedler
    Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Michael Kalisch

    That's exactly what I'm saying.

    But not just "a broker", but "my broker" who I've carefully vetted and selected because that agent has demonstrated that they are more capable than anyone else I have found to deliver expertise and value and are working as my fiduciary putting my interest ahead of all else.

    I follow my attorney's legal advice, my accountant's tax recommendations, and my doctor's medical advice rather than learning it all myself.  Why wouldn't I do that with other professionals I pay to work for me?  

    The great thing about going under contract is you usually have a due diligence contingency that allows you to cancel without cause or cost.  This means that you can now spend all that time and energy kicking tires, running numbers, visiting the property, etc, knowing that, if everything meets your granular criteria, the seller must sell you the property.  That is not the case, if you do this pre-offer.  Not only are you wasting your agent's time, but you're wasting your own.  (With the exception of education yourself--which is very much okay.  Just be up front about it.)

    Your broker should be able to tell you where you need to be making those blind offers to hit the sweet spot of getting things under contract and not over paying to a point where you have to dramatically renegotiate after tying the property up.

    But, like I said, there are a lot of agents who aren't worth their salt, so I understand your skepticism.

    0Reply
  • Tobias Falzone
    Real Estate Agent · Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 126 posts · 74 votes
    9y

    I would not ask agents to do CMA for most properties if your goal is to submit 100 offers hoping one sticks. They can always do that during the due diligence after the fact. I would recommend having each agent make a template offer where the only things they need to change is the address and the purchase price. That should significantly reduce the burden on the agent's time for submitting many offers. Be respectful of their time as much as you can be. You are saving them a lot of time by not having to show you tons of houses, but you need to make the relationship mutually beneficial.

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  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Ashley Benning I agree with a lot of what has been said here. And because I value my time and my realtor's time, I have gotten to know my markets so that like @William Hochstedler I can look through 100 deals in about five minutes I send the ones that look like deals to my realtor partner who I split the deal with.

    I also agree with what was said about having a criteria. Our criteria is we buy houses in Arizona between $100,000 and $200,000  that we can sell for $100,000 more than what we purchased the property for after we put $40,000-$50,000 into the rehab. That usually nets us at least $20,000  which I split 50-50 with my realtor. Because I work full-time and split my time between Arizona and California, I need to have boots on the ground where I invest. So because my realtor gets half the deal, he doesn't receive a commission when we sell the property, and he puts back his commission into the profits of deal when we buy a property. Therefore, he has an invested interest in making offers that will net us at least $20,000.  

    When I wake up in the morning I usually Scan through realtor.com or Zillow.com and then I sent him five or six properties for him to do comparables and send out offers. He usually sends an email to the agent saying that he has an investor who is interested in the property at (a specific price) and then asks the agent if the he should send in an offer.  This is about the same procedure we use when we get deals from wholesalers.

    I agree with @Joel Owens about the benefits of partnering with people in your target markets.  If the partnership agreements are written well, this should limit your risk considerably even though you may not make as much money if you were to do it on your own. However, you are more likely to make money this way then to lose a lot of money.  Because of the system we have built over the last couple of years, we have started partnering  with others both in state and out of state to help them learn how to flip in Arizona and to show them how they can build a system where they can invest effectively sure if they work full-time or live out of state.  You can send me a private message if you are interested in partnering up on a deal in Arizona. 

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  • Jeff Schneider
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 154 posts · 117 votes
    9y

    Providing you're serious and have funding lined up and ready to go, I wouldn't say your asking too much.

    The AZ market is hot right now so the low ball approach won't be real effective. It would be better to have someone that can spot a deal for you and work it than to low ball a bunch of turn key, owner occupied properties. You will probably only get 4-5 a year this way but unless your turning them over fast, that may be more than enough.

    They're out here but I haven't found any wholesale deals that actually have good margins in the properties for flips. I check ARV's and they're always 20K-30K (sometimes more) over what you can actually sell the property for.

    If you have systems in place, it's easy to write up an offer and figure out comps in an area are.

    0Reply
  • Joe FunariBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Keller, TX · Member since 2017 · 850 posts · 825 votes
    9y

    Ashley, I am first a real estate investor. But also a Realtor. The reason I became a real estate agent is to purposely help other investors acquire investment properties here in Texas. It is a wonderful market for both buy-and-hold and flip strategies. I have personally done both and have been very successful. So now I help my fellow investors acquire additional properties. I understand your frustration. The markets you mentioned I have personally lived in all of them and a great for investing. Problem with most realtors is that they have been conditioned to work the "traditional" real estate transaction. They fail to understand cash-on-cash, cap rates, etc. I don't require my clients to sign an agreement to work with me. I have been very successful at finding both MLS and "off market" investment properties for them. They use my services to submit offers. I don't mind submitting 10 offers a day and only one gets accepted. I am an investor and come from an abundance mentality. There will always be another property that will meet my clients needs down the road. But you can't win unless you play. So comps, bids, etc. take me only a few minutes. MLS systems in place here are really good. Oh, and congrats on your masters thesis. Been there done that twice. So I understand your pain.

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