Our buying agent is incompetent - need input

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Our buying agent is incompetent - need input

Pamela Gondeck
Rental Property Investor · Destrehan, LA · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 9 votes

We’re buying a coastal property and made the mistake of not getting references for an agent in that area. The one we ended up with is incompetent.

Skipping past other issues to the about to be deal-breaker: We’re past the inspection, waiting on appraisal. I discovered last night that the bathroom the sellers added wasn’t permitted. We already knew from the inspection that there was some sort of defect in the sewer pipe that was pumping sewage from the lift pump under the deck/house. When the bathroom was added, supposedly it was also renovated from septic to city sewer. I’m now questioning how it was connected to city sewer without a permit.

When I asked for proof of permitted work and sewage connection, Realtor just responded back that “Not all permits are on line and buyers can put in themselves without permits FYI but will ask”. Nonsense. Owners can pull permits themselves, but legally they are required. Realtor should know that.

Can I go to her broker for help at this point? I don’t trust her to provide input or to advocate for us.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
5y
well its your investment you need to take charge of this.. dont blame it on the realtor..
what did the sellers disclosure document thats required by law say ???

its come to light prior to closing which is a good thing..  but end of the day its your responsibility.

Sellers lie all the time..  


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  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    5y

    Call the city yourself and find out if a permit was pulled and signed off.

    3Reply
  • Bruce Lynn
    Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y

    You may have to go to the city directly to check permits.  You are correct that not all cities put all permits online.   Usually there is some kind of cutoff date....from 1/1/15 all permits are online or something like that.  There could be some differences with connecting to city sewer.  I think it could be possible that when cities come through neighborhoods with options to convert the residents from septic to city sewer they may not issue permits.  However if you check with the city they will likely tell you if it was done to their specs of requiring permit or not.

    0Reply
  • Pamela Gondeck
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Destrehan, LA · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 9 votes
    5y

    @Bruce Lynn

    It’s definitely from after the city started posting permits because the roof these owners put on has one as well as the “repair” the previous owner did in 2005.

    I’ll call the city Monday. But if one was required, not pulled and my realtor is telling me it wasn’t required and treating this like no big deal, how should I proceed?

    I’m preparing to walk away, but want to give the sellers a chance to make it right.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    well its your investment you need to take charge of this.. dont blame it on the realtor..
    what did the sellers disclosure document thats required by law say ???

    its come to light prior to closing which is a good thing..  but end of the day its your responsibility.

    Sellers lie all the time..  


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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Pamela Gondeck:

    @Bruce Lynn

    It’s definitely from after the city started posting permits because the roof these owners put on has one as well as the “repair” the previous owner did in 2005.

    I’ll call the city Monday. But if one was required, not pulled and my realtor is telling me it wasn’t required and treating this like no big deal, how should I proceed?

    I’m preparing to walk away, but want to give the sellers a chance to make it right.

    This is only about your realtor's "no big deal" attitude:  In my area of little working-class homes, its extremely common to have unpermitted work.  I know my (very experienced) agent has told me she rarely has buyers in this area getting upset over permits, but I would assume its the same kind of buyers who will do their own unpermitted work eventually anyway.  

    If you or your insurance co are uncomfortable about lack of permits or bad workmanship, and you are still in your due diligence period, you should feel comfortable walking away and get your EMD back. Then if you still feel your agent doesn't understand your goals, just get a different agent.

    1Reply
  • Pamela Gondeck
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Destrehan, LA · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 9 votes
    5y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    The sellers were required to disclose unpermitted work. Which they signed the line saying there was none. That my out of the contract at this point.

    I’m taking on all the due diligence, but I need the realtor to do her part in advocating for me.

    This is a potential deal breaker because it they never got hooked up to sewer and just been flowing under the house this whole time, what we thought was a simple refloor and joist repair is about to get foul.

    0Reply
  • Pamela Gondeck
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Destrehan, LA · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 9 votes
    5y

    @Nicky Reader

    But can I get different agent I this point in the deal? World going to her broker help with that?

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Pamela Gondeck:

    @Jay Hinrichs

    The sellers were required to disclose unpermitted work. Which they signed the line saying there was none. That my out of the contract at this point.

    I’m taking on all the due diligence, but I need the realtor to do her part in advocating for me.

    This is a potential deal breaker because it they never got hooked up to sewer and just been flowing under the house this whole time, what we thought was a simple refloor and joist repair is about to get foul.

    OK agreed.. but a simple home inspection and sewer scope would flush this out.. no PUN intended .. :)

    at this point forget about the agent.. the seller is paying the commish.. just do normal due diligence which is sewer scope and home inspection. And if your worried about permits go to the city ( if they are open ) and try to find out if one they were needed and two if they were done.  For investor homes this is not a huge issue.. but if this is owner occ and your going to sell in the future to  owner occ.. then this is a bigger issue and should be addressed by you up front do not rely on an agent for this its not their job. 

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Pamela Gondeck:

    @Nicky Reader

    But can I get different agent I this point in the deal? World going to her broker help with that?

     If you are still in contract, I believe you are also still also in contract with that realtor's brokerage, and that realtor is owed for her services.  You should have signed an agency agreement that specifies the terms of your representation. 

    I would advise not being passive-aggressive though, if you just bluntly tell your agent that you are being serious about the permits and apparent false disclosure, and need her to also take it seriously during her representation of you, that should get the message across. If she still won't take it seriously, then ask her broker to explain your concerns.  

    2Reply
  • Jennifer Ruelens
    Property Manager · Williamsport, PA · Member since 2020 · 93 posts · 74 votes
    5y

    I will let the other posters address the deficiency in your potential purchase.  As far as your agent, yes, you should go to the Broker to report what you feel is bad representation.  The broker is the boss and can handle it.  Good luck!

    0Reply
  • Nic S.Pro Member
    Danville. CA · Member since 2017 · 313 posts · 221 votes
    5y

    @Pamela Gondeck Sounds like this is not the first issue you have had with the realtor. I would sit down and have a honest conversation with them about how you were feeling and let it be known you are considering walking away. If nothing changes within the first week, go to the broker.

    0Reply
  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    I don’t know why everyone is stuck on permits. Sure, you could find something that wasn’t permitted and inspected and it wasn’t done correctly. Or not permitted and a perfect job, and up to code. I’ve bought properties with 1 year old heating units. Permit? I couldn’t care less.

    If your home inspector found an issue, either deal with it or don’t.

    9Reply
  • Henry Lazerow
    Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Whenever a client asked me something like this I educate them on what's normal for the area and then refer them out to their attorney for any legal questions. Your realtor is not an attorney it's not their job to dig up or validate permits being pulled and doing so would open them up to potential liabilities, during the licensing they repetitively tell agents that you cannot act as an attorney. In some areas like Chicago unpermitted rehab work is the majority and it's pretty rare to see properties where the rehab was done with permits on small/medium jobs while other places like the suburbs unpermitted work is a no go on 2-4 units due to annual inspections on rental properties. 

    7Reply
  • Lynnette E.
    Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    I don’t know why everyone is stuck on permits. Sure, you could find something that wasn’t permitted and inspected and it wasn’t done correctly. Or not permitted and a perfect job, and up to code. I’ve bought properties with 1 year old heating units. Permit? I couldn’t care less.

    If your home inspector found an issue, either deal with it or don’t.

     The reason that people are concerned with permits is that in some areas the governing agency can be very wicked if they find something without a permit.  They can require back property taxes with interest and penalties to when they think it was built.  They can require that the thing is removed.  They may never approve it to be rebuilt, leaving you with a weird layout and a mess.  And in some areas you loose the sell it exit as its hard to sell, which impacts your bottom line.

    0Reply
  • Michael Noto
    Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    Now that you know what the issues are I would focus on doing what you need to do in order to feel comfortable closing on the deal. Do not become pre occupied with the agent to the point where it impacts your ability to think clearly about things that really matter. You can always get a new agent for the next deal, that is the easy thing in this equation. 

    0Reply
  • Crystal SmithPro Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Pamela Gondeck:

    We’re buying a coastal property and made the mistake of not getting references for an agent in that area. The one we ended up with is incompetent.

    Skipping past other issues to the about to be deal-breaker: We’re past the inspection, waiting on appraisal. I discovered last night that the bathroom the sellers added wasn’t permitted. We already knew from the inspection that there was some sort of defect in the sewer pipe that was pumping sewage from the lift pump under the deck/house. When the bathroom was added, supposedly it was also renovated from septic to city sewer. I’m now questioning how it was connected to city sewer without a permit.

    When I asked for proof of permitted work and sewage connection, Realtor just responded back that “Not all permits are on line and buyers can put in themselves without permits FYI but will ask”. Nonsense. Owners can pull permits themselves, but legally they are required. Realtor should know that.

    Can I go to her broker for help at this point? I don’t trust her to provide input or to advocate for us.

    So let's examine what your agent said according to you- "Not all permits are on line and buyers can put in themselves without permits FYI but will ask”  Your realtor told you the truth- Any owner of a property may decide to do their own work, whether legal or illegal, without a permit.  I read your realtor's comment as managing expectations- she will check on permits for you but if the owner installed it themselves without a permit then she may not find anything.  I think there's more to this story than this comment from your broker.

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    4Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    5y

    First question is, do permits even matter in the location? Nearly every house that exists in the DC area has un-permitted work and its not an issue here.

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  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Lynnette E.

    If you are just buying a house, and a bathroom was added or an addition was put on without a permit, how the f can they go after the buyer/new owner for back taxes and penalties etc?!

    In 2005 I built onto my house (at the time), fully permitted. Inspector came for the rough framing/roof/etc. never came again. Not for electrical, insulation, drywall, I called him 3x at each step. He showed up for the final c.o. When it was all done. He had no idea if I did it right or not. If a buyer is skeptical and no permits pulled or whatever, move on.

    1Reply
  • Matt M.
    Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Lynnette E.

    In one small city I work in, they require permits for replacement windows. Really? It’s a bunch of bs. One time I asked the inspector what he was looking for. He didn’t know. Other than a sticker with a U value of under .30 there’s nothing really to look for. And if a “contractor” does a crap job and has no clue what he’s doing, a homeowner is going to find that anyway. Either way that “contractor” is going to walk. 3/4 of permits are just money making schemes.

    0Reply
  • Ola Dantis
    Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Pamela Gondeck You should look at this from a point of interest. Most real estate on the residential side is very transactional and some agents are just trying to push these deals all through to the closing so that they can get paid and you may never see that agent again until you want to buy or sell. 

    Sellers will tell you what they think you want to hear to sell their properties (I know the world should be a better place and all, but on the commercial side (the dark side) it is even worse lol)...

    Knowing this fact, your goal is to protect yourself as much as you can. Yes, I can understand that the agent should know and fight for you. 

    My advice is to take charge of this matter and find out directly from the City plus you have this on record and if and when you do buy you can tackle the issue head-on! 

    1Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y

    @Pamela Gondeck my guess is the agent meant that home owners do unpermitted work. Half the houses I have purchased contain unpermitted work. It is common and it doesn't stop a property from selling. You can call the city and ask them, but generally speaking what is done is done. If you catch someone doing unpermitted work, you can report them and the city will intervene. Once the work is done and especially years later, the city will generally do nothing. If you find some of the work was sub-standard through inspection, you can request repairs. The seller can deny your request, accept it or negotiate something in the middle.

    1Reply
  • Pamela Gondeck
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Destrehan, LA · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 9 votes
    5y

    For those asking if this matters - in this area, yes. If I want my insurance claim paid out later for hurricane damage, it sure as hell better be a legal bathroom. Some states may allow homeowners to do that work unpermitted, but this was not done by the homeowner, it was contracted out. And FL/Bay County doesn’t allow that.

    If this is found later, I would be liable for fixing it and potential back taxes.

    0Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    I don’t know why everyone is stuck on permits. Sure, you could find something that wasn’t permitted and inspected and it wasn’t done correctly. Or not permitted and a perfect job, and up to code. I’ve bought properties with 1 year old heating units. Permit? I couldn’t care less.

    If your home inspector found an issue, either deal with it or don’t.

     I have had tons or work done by qualified professionals and I always require them to pull permits. Half the time, the inspector finds something that needs correcting to comply with code. If professionals have issues half the time, amateurs are obviously much worse. Several of my houses have had unpermitted work done, usually basement finishes. In every case there are things that don't meet code. Some I have corrected and some I have left because it isn't a big deal. Still you never know what lurks under the walls. 

    I guess my point is lack of permits doesn't scare me away, but getting work done under permits is better. Of course there are people who do excellent work without pulling permits. That is probably the exception rather than the rule for DIY.

    0Reply
  • Edwin Epperson
    Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2020 · 202 posts · 116 votes
    5y

    Ouch... thats no bueno!

    0Reply
  • Gregory Tapscott
    Real Estate Agent · California/New Jersey · Member since 2020 · 29 posts · 14 votes
    5y

    @Pamela Gondeck By all means go to the broker! That one statement you quoted makes it hard for us agents that pride ourselves on going above and beyond for or clients. But what you just described sounds more like below and to the bottom.

    Good luck!!

    0Reply
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