New investor needing help/advice.. I got scammed :(

New investor needing help/advice.. I got scammed :(

Member since 2022 · 20 posts · 2 votes

So I bought a 4plex in Michigan back in September and hired a handyman who only had positive reviews on Google, Yelp, Facebook, etc.

He seemed pretty trustworthy at first and I hired him to get all 4 units rent ready where he quoted me $8000 to paint and cleanup all 4 units.. He requested I pay upfront and I was naïve (dumb) enough at the time to do this. He also asked I move in his girlfriend to one of the units where I found out she had numerous eviction histories later on (luckily I was able to collect rent up to this point).

So, after receiving my $8000, the handyman painted 2 of the units where I moved my inherited tenant to the newly painted unit for extra $50 more in rent ($800), and allowed his girlfriend to start her lease on the nicest unit that was just painted.

So this left him with 2 more units to paint & clean and have it ready for rent.

It is now December and when I visited the property from California 2 weeks ago, only 1 of 2 was partially painted.

Furthermore, back in October my property was inspected by the city and they wanted me to fix a list of violations. The handy man quoted me $5K where I paid it upfront being a dummy that I am L.

This violation list was also never even corrected, and now the handyman has ran away with my money at this point.

I’ve also found out through my inherited tenant as well as his girlfriend (when she got pissed at him for him cheating on her) that he was renting out one of the unit as a flop house for people to do drugs in all this time since September.  

But anyway, this is total of 8K + 5K I paid to this guy to make all units rent ready and resolve all city violations.

I was speaking to a lawyer in the area to sue him, and she mentioned that he is well known by the police and the prosecutors for having bunch of misdemeanors and other legal related issues. She mentioned I probably wont be able to collect anything from him and told me to move on with the loss. now I am just depressed that I am out of 13k by this SOB..

I want to see if I can get some advice here.. It really sucks that people like him can get away with taking advantage of new investors like me..  

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Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
3y

Will the property cash flow when he's out? That could be your light at the end of the tunnel

I believe the thing that separates super successful investors from those who stall or fail, is the super successful investors learn from these mistakes, take the expensive lumps, and move forward. The fact of the matter is that everyone has a deal go wrong eventually. The keys are to mitigate the damages, learn from your mistakes, and move forward.

It sucks to lose money, but do you still want to be hung up on this issue 5 years from now? Or would you rather learn, grow, and move on?

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2020 · 184 posts · 182 votes
    3y

    I would file a free online complaint with my state’s attorney general for consumer fraud.

    They will follow up and may even help you get some money back. 

  • Scott AllenBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2020 · 449 posts · 471 votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh This sounds like a tough area for an OOS investment which typically you should try to make sure you have a property manager in place prior to closing. Definitely try to see if you can get on the local PM's list for when they'll be able to help

    Reafco - Columbus, OH
  • Member since 2022 · 20 posts · 2 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Danny Polanski:

    I would file a free online complaint with my state’s attorney general for consumer fraud.

    They will follow up and may even help you get some money back. 


     Thank you for this advice! I'll definitely follow through on this!

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh you got what you deserved, now what are you going to do about it?

    What did you learn, what can you do differently next time?

    Should you hire a local expert or keep trying to do it yourself?

  • Arlington, TX · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 6 votes
    3y
    Sorry to hear about all the issues you had.  As many have said, don't pay up front.  One piece of advice I didn't see, which I believe important is to invest closer to home starting out.  Investing that far away for your first deal just opens you up to all kinds of issues.  You need to stay close enough to be able to visit often as you are learning.  Once you are more experienced, venture out to wherever you want.  I know people that have invested for years and have lots of experience that still wouldn't go that far away.
  • Cory J ThorntonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2021 · 240 posts · 281 votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh - 

    I don't think you're allowed into the investor club unit you've made a few mistakes and bounced back ... it sounds like you are learning and well on your way to becoming a true REI!

    Here are some of my most painful failures. 

    - Purchased a single family ranch off market. I looked at the tax site to get my square footage, assuming that these sites are usually correct. Turns out, not so much. A year after I purchased the property the tenant moved out, and I did a renovation. Turns out I paid for about 250sq' of property that are not there. That one hurt, but you can bet I now have some systems in place to ensure square footage before I buy. 

    - I had a tenant call and ask if they could take in their grandchild's service dog. I had a no pet policy on the property. The tenant said that the dog was a service dog but his grandson was moving and the dog needed somewhere to stay for a few months. Without meeting the dog I caved. That animal ripped the bottom half off of two interior doors and damaged another two beyond repair. The tenant moved out, leaving me with a mountain of pet damages. I could have gone after him, but he had no income so it would have been a waste. To make this worse, I purchased this property and the original owner did not keep any security deposits. When I signed new leases with the existing tenants, I didn't require them to put up a deposit either. All those damages ended up coming right out of my pocket. You can bet that I now have a very different process when it comes to pets and deposits. 

    You always win more when you loose a fight than when you win one. Loosing isn't fun, so just be sure you harvest as much value from the experience as possible. 

    Congratulations on being human and on being a real estate investor! With a good blunder under your belt you've got a solid platform for future success! The key right now is taking all the awesome advice given, and finding away to turn this property into a win. 

    Keep us posted on the journey! We're looking forward to learning the outcome of this situation. 

    Merry Christmas! 

  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jon A.:

    This experience sucks. Sorry you had to go through it. The only way to view it imo is that $13k we'd the cost of your education. In my experience, it's rarely beneficial to sue in situations like this, unless he has a w-2 job. You get a judgment and then what? Based on your description of him, I'm guessing he has many many creditors.

    I think the first two lessons are obvious - don't pay contractors up front, carefully screen all tenants and don't rent to people you otherwise do business with. One perhaps less obvious lesson - install video cameras on your property so your know next time someone turns it into a flop house.

     you lose some. You win some, but if you play smart going forward, you should win more than you lose.

    We all talk about what we should’ve done differently after the fact, but if things would’ve turned out, OK, then we would not have even been reading this post. If you keep investing and do enough deals, this will not be your last mistake of some kind., But hopefully, you will not make this same mistake again.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y

    " Handyman " = unlicensed contractor .  Unfortunatly you get what you pay for .  You did get some of the work done so you are not out the entire amount . 

    What happened is a common mistake made by homeowners and investors . They go for the cheap price , and it ends up costing them more than what a professional would charge 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matthew Paul:

    " Handyman " = unlicensed contractor .  Unfortunatly you get what you pay for .  You did get some of the work done so you are not out the entire amount . 

    What happened is a common mistake made by homeowners and investors . They go for the cheap price , and it ends up costing them more than what a professional would charge 


     And you have zero protection or recourse should something go awry......

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago · Member since 2018 · 74 posts · 67 votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh

    Think of this as paid real life education. I had a contractor run off with 20k on my first deal. I ended up selling that property for 100k. You can check out that story on my profile. I recently just purchased a 4 unit building. My point is, we all take our lumps in the RE game. It sucks in the moment but if you fight through it and learn from your mistakes you will keep getting better and will make better decisions. You will learn to take care of RE and RE will take care of you.

  • Investor · Palm City, FL · Member since 2020 · 8 posts · 6 votes
    3y

    Please share the handyman’s name - thanks

  • Wholesaler · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 45 posts · 12 votes
    3y

    Hey Kwan. I am local here in the Detroit area. I could refer a good Property Management company that also could get your units city certified and rented for you. I would also recommend that you have the PM get you Section 8 tenants. They tend to stay longer, the rent is higher and will get paid each month even if something like COVID hits again. Let me know if I can be in any assistance to you. TC

  • Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh there's some excellent feedback in this thread that you can use to move on and succeed--in fact, I'd suggest reading this thread a few times, because there are some valuable lessons here...

    Here's some more feedback and suggestions for moving forward:

    1. Good job keeping it real. Good on you for being honest with yourself about screwing up, and being willing to share it with others (we all screw up, but few of us are real with ourselves or others about it). It takes guts and maturity to recognize your mistakes, admit them to others, and ask others for help. And importantly, being real with yourself and others is the best way to learn from your mistakes, and become a better, smarter, stronger real estate investor (plus, others get to learn from your experience).

    2. Avoid C's and D's. As others have mentioned, OOS investing is difficult enough, but it's EXPONENTIALLY more difficult in a C or D area. One of the main reasons is that C and D areas attract problems and problematic people (as you discovered), and very few property managers will put in the significant amount of work it takes to correctly manage a D property, because it's simply not worth the small amount of money they get from the property. Managing a D property is like taking on the worst job in the world, and getting paid almost nothing for it--so, understandably, PMs usually do not put in the effort required for these types of properties. Because of this, I'd suggest considering ditching this property, and looking for A and B properties instead (the lower cashflow of an A or B is absolutely worth the significantly easier management).

    3. Keep it local. OOS investing is challenging (even with A and B properties). It is exponentially easier to learn the basics of REI if it's a property in your area. Because of this, I'd suggest trying to start with properties in your own area.

    4. get some property management experience.  Being a successful real estate investor usually requires understanding how to manage properties. Even if you have a PM, you still need to understand how to manage your properties--because you can't effectively manage your PM if you don't understand how to manage properties.  Think of it this way: a person can't manage a law firm unless they have legal experience.  A person can't coach a team to an NBA championship unless they have basketball experience. A person can't run a mechanic's shop without any mechanical experience ...and similarly, it's very difficult to manage a PM (or team of PMs) if you have no property management experience.  Because of this, if you want to be a successful real estate investor, I suggest starting off with a strategy that gives you property management experience (ideally, managing your own property).

    5. Stick with a strategy that matches your experience level. You're a beginner, but you tried to start off with an advanced strategy. Instead, you should start off with a beginner-appropriate strategy.  OOS investing is known to be challenging, and OOS investing in C and D properties is known to be so challenging that even highly experienced real estate investors rarely attempt it (and the few who do often fail!). ...OOS C and D property investing is one of THE most challenging strategies, yet you tried it as a beginner!  That's like trying to ski a double black diamond run the first time you put on skis, or trying to surf a fifty-foot wave the first time you get on a surf board--it's gonna end in disaster! So, don't beat yourself up too much--even experienced investors often fail at what you tried to do...but also, make sure you learn this valuable lesson: stick with the REI strategies that are appropriate for your level of experience--if you're a beginner, use a beginner-appropriate strategy.  In particular, house hacking a single fam or small multifam is one of the best ways for people to get started in REI (and there are plenty of free resources available on this topic).  Get some house hacks under your belt (which will teach you how to manage properties--which, as I said, is critical), and then if you want, move up to some of the more advanced strategies.

    6. Keep the loss in perspective, and wear the scar with pride. As others have mentioned, it is not possible to succeed in REI without some big failures, and those of us who have been in REI for a while have suffered losses way more than $15k! In fact, you're not really much of a real estate investor until you've survived a few $10k, $20k, and even $50k+ punches to the gut! As James Brown sang: ya gotta pay the cost to be the boss. So, welcome to the club of real estate investors. Although you took an L on this one, at least you know you did something that everyone *talks* about doing, but which very few people have the cojónes to actually do--buying a rental property. Plus, you have some lessons here that are probably significantly more valuable than the cash you lost! 

    Good luck out there!

  • Member since 2019 · 90 posts · 56 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Todd Vernon Chunn:

    Hey Kwan. I am local here in the Detroit area. I could refer a good Property Management company that also could get your units city certified and rented for you. I would also recommend that you have the PM get you Section 8 tenants. They tend to stay longer, the rent is higher and will get paid each month even if something like COVID hits again. Let me know if I can be in any assistance to you. TC

     @Kwan Suh you will need to watch the PM's out there. Make sure you vet the PM Carefully. I don't know how much I lost this year due to the PM charging me the full price and then hiring a contractor for a lower price. After switching PM's I found that you need pictures/video evidence if you are Out of State investor. Potentially get another contractor out there for a second quote to keep them honest. This was only after my new PM told me about their shoddy work.

    We all take our "lessons" in RE but it's still worth it in the long run.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    So this happened in Detroit....

    And you did not foresee or expect this kind of swindle behavior ahead of time.

    Lots of red flags here along the way.

    Ask other local based owners who they would use vs picking someone at random.

    And learn to pay in draws--with lien releases.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Kwan Suh:

    So I bought a 4plex in Michigan back in September and hired a handyman who only had positive reviews on Google, Yelp, Facebook, etc.

    He seemed pretty trustworthy at first and I hired him to get all 4 units rent ready where he quoted me $8000 to paint and cleanup all 4 units.. He requested I pay upfront and I was naïve (dumb) enough at the time to do this. He also asked I move in his girlfriend to one of the units where I found out she had numerous eviction histories later on (luckily I was able to collect rent up to this point).

    So, after receiving my $8000, the handyman painted 2 of the units where I moved my inherited tenant to the newly painted unit for extra $50 more in rent ($800), and allowed his girlfriend to start her lease on the nicest unit that was just painted.

    So this left him with 2 more units to paint & clean and have it ready for rent.

    It is now December and when I visited the property from California 2 weeks ago, only 1 of 2 was partially painted.

    Furthermore, back in October my property was inspected by the city and they wanted me to fix a list of violations. The handy man quoted me $5K where I paid it upfront being a dummy that I am L.

    This violation list was also never even corrected, and now the handyman has ran away with my money at this point.

    I’ve also found out through my inherited tenant as well as his girlfriend (when she got pissed at him for him cheating on her) that he was renting out one of the unit as a flop house for people to do drugs in all this time since September.  

    But anyway, this is total of 8K + 5K I paid to this guy to make all units rent ready and resolve all city violations.

    I was speaking to a lawyer in the area to sue him, and she mentioned that he is well known by the police and the prosecutors for having bunch of misdemeanors and other legal related issues. She mentioned I probably wont be able to collect anything from him and told me to move on with the loss. now I am just depressed that I am out of 13k by this SOB..

    I want to see if I can get some advice here.. It really sucks that people like him can get away with taking advantage of new investors like me..  


     I am very sorry but the first mistake when investing OOS is not using Professional PM.

    Second, using a handyman is fine, but I always DD his record, even to the point I'm visiting their house and meeting their wife/brother so I know he's trustworthy.

  • Member since 2022 · 20 posts · 2 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Leo R.:

    @Kwan Suh there's some excellent feedback in this thread that you can use to move on and succeed--in fact, I'd suggest reading this thread a few times, because there are some valuable lessons here...

    Here's some more feedback and suggestions for moving forward:

    1. Good job keeping it real. Good on you for being honest with yourself about screwing up, and being willing to share it with others (we all screw up, but few of us are real with ourselves or others about it). It takes guts and maturity to recognize your mistakes, admit them to others, and ask others for help. And importantly, being real with yourself and others is the best way to learn from your mistakes, and become a better, smarter, stronger real estate investor (plus, others get to learn from your experience).

    2. Avoid C's and D's. As others have mentioned, OOS investing is difficult enough, but it's EXPONENTIALLY more difficult in a C or D area. One of the main reasons is that C and D areas attract problems and problematic people (as you discovered), and very few property managers will put in the significant amount of work it takes to correctly manage a D property, because it's simply not worth the small amount of money they get from the property. Managing a D property is like taking on the worst job in the world, and getting paid almost nothing for it--so, understandably, PMs usually do not put in the effort required for these types of properties. Because of this, I'd suggest considering ditching this property, and looking for A and B properties instead (the lower cashflow of an A or B is absolutely worth the significantly easier management).

    3. Keep it local. OOS investing is challenging (even with A and B properties). It is exponentially easier to learn the basics of REI if it's a property in your area. Because of this, I'd suggest trying to start with properties in your own area.

    4. get some property management experience.  Being a successful real estate investor usually requires understanding how to manage properties. Even if you have a PM, you still need to understand how to manage your properties--because you can't effectively manage your PM if you don't understand how to manage properties.  Think of it this way: a person can't manage a law firm unless they have legal experience.  A person can't coach a team to an NBA championship unless they have basketball experience. A person can't run a mechanic's shop without any mechanical experience ...and similarly, it's very difficult to manage a PM (or team of PMs) if you have no property management experience.  Because of this, if you want to be a successful real estate investor, I suggest starting off with a strategy that gives you property management experience (ideally, managing your own property).

    5. Stick with a strategy that matches your experience level. You're a beginner, but you tried to start off with an advanced strategy. Instead, you should start off with a beginner-appropriate strategy.  OOS investing is known to be challenging, and OOS investing in C and D properties is known to be so challenging that even highly experienced real estate investors rarely attempt it (and the few who do often fail!). ...OOS C and D property investing is one of THE most challenging strategies, yet you tried it as a beginner!  That's like trying to ski a double black diamond run the first time you put on skis, or trying to surf a fifty-foot wave the first time you get on a surf board--it's gonna end in disaster! So, don't beat yourself up too much--even experienced investors often fail at what you tried to do...but also, make sure you learn this valuable lesson: stick with the REI strategies that are appropriate for your level of experience--if you're a beginner, use a beginner-appropriate strategy.  In particular, house hacking a single fam or small multifam is one of the best ways for people to get started in REI (and there are plenty of free resources available on this topic).  Get some house hacks under your belt (which will teach you how to manage properties--which, as I said, is critical), and then if you want, move up to some of the more advanced strategies.

    6. Keep the loss in perspective, and wear the scar with pride. As others have mentioned, it is not possible to succeed in REI without some big failures, and those of us who have been in REI for a while have suffered losses way more than $15k! In fact, you're not really much of a real estate investor until you've survived a few $10k, $20k, and even $50k+ punches to the gut! As James Brown sang: ya gotta pay the cost to be the boss. So, welcome to the club of real estate investors. Although you took an L on this one, at least you know you did something that everyone *talks* about doing, but which very few people have the cojónes to actually do--buying a rental property. Plus, you have some lessons here that are probably significantly more valuable than the cash you lost! 

    Good luck out there!


     Everyone on this forum has been a blessing including you. thank you so much for taking your times to respond to my post. I truly appreciate it.

  • Member since 2022 · 1 post · 0 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Ruchit Patel:
    What's your reason to jump into investment completely on your own and exposing yourself to potential scams? 
    Hi Ruchit. Noob question: what would you suggest as an alternative to going on my own to avoid scams and other mistakes? 
  • Bay area, CA · Member since 2021 · 383 posts · 306 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Phil Garber:
    Quote from @Ruchit Patel:
    What's your reason to jump into investment completely on your own and exposing yourself to potential scams? 
    Hi Ruchit. Noob question: what would you suggest as an alternative to going on my own to avoid scams and other mistakes? 

    I will tell you. Every kid holds someone's finger for every unknown endeavor. Just like that, doing with someone, or making 100s of phone calls to lawyers, realtors, etc to learn more, or investing with turnkey providers who take care of behind the scene work, etc is the way to go. 

    People spend decades in the school system to get basic jobs, but for some reason, everyone thinks that they can make money in other aspects of life after watching a few YouTube videos. 

    There are enough nice people out there who willingly hold fingers and don't charge any money upfront. 
  • Developer · Boulder, CO · Member since 2018 · 530 posts · 365 votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh Kwan, I'm very sorry to hear your story. Being taken for a ride is never fun especially if the bruises you receive come from being a good guy.

    If this helps, with decades of experience in real estate development l did the same thing. I “bought” a contractor’s sob story and spotted him 50% of his work knowing how much of a no no it was to do so.

    No good deed goes unpunished

    I was able to catch up with the bad actor and fire his *** when we about even. This resulted in a citizen’s standby with a Sheriff protecting the home we were building to make sure the contractor didn’t make good on his threats to take a hammer to home as he exited.

    Don’t be too hard on yourself for being honest and kind in the face of all of the con artists out there.

    Consider your $13k loss a valuable and relatively cheap lesson. But don’t lose or harden your heart too much because of your experience.

    There are still people out there who sincerely need a break.

    Guys with open hearts just need to become more careful about who to trust.

  • Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2022 · 66 posts · 28 votes
    3y

    I know some folks kill it buying out of state.  

    I'm more of the mindset that I would want to have regular eyes on my investments. 

    Detroit has loads of promise.  Why California?  

    Also in the future, screening tenants. All of them.  No passes for family or friends.  And anyone you move in you might need to evict. 

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Kwan Suh:

    So I bought a 4plex in Michigan back in September and hired a handyman who only had positive reviews on Google, Yelp, Facebook, etc.

    He seemed pretty trustworthy at first and I hired him to get all 4 units rent ready where he quoted me $8000 to paint and cleanup all 4 units.. He requested I pay upfront and I was naïve (dumb) enough at the time to do this. He also asked I move in his girlfriend to one of the units where I found out she had numerous eviction histories later on (luckily I was able to collect rent up to this point).

    So, after receiving my $8000, the handyman painted 2 of the units where I moved my inherited tenant to the newly painted unit for extra $50 more in rent ($800), and allowed his girlfriend to start her lease on the nicest unit that was just painted.

    So this left him with 2 more units to paint & clean and have it ready for rent.

    It is now December and when I visited the property from California 2 weeks ago, only 1 of 2 was partially painted.

    Furthermore, back in October my property was inspected by the city and they wanted me to fix a list of violations. The handy man quoted me $5K where I paid it upfront being a dummy that I am L.

    This violation list was also never even corrected, and now the handyman has ran away with my money at this point.

    I’ve also found out through my inherited tenant as well as his girlfriend (when she got pissed at him for him cheating on her) that he was renting out one of the unit as a flop house for people to do drugs in all this time since September.  

    But anyway, this is total of 8K + 5K I paid to this guy to make all units rent ready and resolve all city violations.

    I was speaking to a lawyer in the area to sue him, and she mentioned that he is well known by the police and the prosecutors for having bunch of misdemeanors and other legal related issues. She mentioned I probably wont be able to collect anything from him and told me to move on with the loss. now I am just depressed that I am out of 13k by this SOB..

    I want to see if I can get some advice here.. It really sucks that people like him can get away with taking advantage of new investors like me..  

    Your problems are more than a dishonest handyman. You are unforunately, inexperienced.

    You need to team up with an experienced investor for the next couple of properties until you are familiar with the processes.
  • Contractor · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2021 · 82 posts · 35 votes
    3y

    @Kwan Suh sue him! haha Buddy take your losses and move on. You won't get a dime and you'll spend more time and effort that you'll regret more. BP probably told you how easy it is and you read Long Distancing investing and now you realize its not so easy. I invest out of state but manager the flips/rentals actively on site with people I hire. If what you bought is in a good area then I'd suggest trying to get a reputable property manager and let them locally hire another person to finish the work. write the expenses off on your taxes. Yes, never pay upfront but you learned a hard lesson. A lot of times for a contractor/handyman if they know you are out of state saying this myself I probably wouldn't want to do the work either because its easy they would never get paid and never come after you either. You can sue and win and never get paid (trust me I know this way too well as a landlord). Move on. good luck.

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