psycho contractor pours concrete down drains because he was fired

psycho contractor pours concrete down drains because he was fired

Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes

I had a rental house in Kansas City come vacant in January and hired a handyman ..in process of trying to become a contractor (he had recently formed an LLC company)... to replace some tiles and paint...simple job and nothing complicated. He came highly recommended as he had done good work for a couple people I respect & I had used him on smaller fixes and no problems. He also used to work at a large respected property mngt company that manages 1000 properties.

My job was suppose to be done end of February and we kept giving him extensions until finally we got super fed up & gave him a hard deadline of last week. We told him we'd pay him for whatever he could finish by then but he was off the job...fired basically. The work he did was extremely poor quality and mostly having to be redone. I suspect he might have fallen into hard drug use based on the work quality of what I saw & what the neighbors told me they saw of him when he did show up in the middle of the night. I did pay him partial payment and withheld funds to fix what wasn't done or done poorly...more than fair.  Although he let it be known that he thought he had done a perfect job & was completely delusional about it. 

I noticed the basement drain backing up on his final day after he had just left (and before he knew what he was going to get paid) but just thought it was the drain clogged and yesterday when my plumber came out he found there were rocks and cement that had been flushed down the sewage pipes which was causing the sewage to back up in the basement. There is even cement that was poured down the tub drain and cement over the drain in the basement..every plumbing hole he could find he poured cement in. My plumber said whoever did this spent a lot of time flushing rocks and he estimated about 80 pounds of cement down the sewer. He said it had to have been flushed down the toilet to get that far in the pipes & it was a crap ton of cement and whoever did it took A LOT of time to get that much rocks and cement down the pipes. I called the police and they told me that because I don't have him on video and no one saw him do it and because he had legal permission to be in the house working on it when this was done there was nothing they could do. They wouldn't even do a report. 

 No one else but him had keys/access to the house so clearly it was him or someone he brought in to work with but can't imagine why anyone but him would have a motive to do this & go to this much trouble. I feel he did it to get back at me for firing him. 

I am also afraid of what he is capable of doing if I publicly go after him too hard seeing how crazy he is but at the same time he's going to be out there possibly working for other investors or property management companies or homeowners etc and is a dangerous & super vindictive psychotic person. 

I am interested to hear what advice you guys have for me as I'm not sure what my next step to be. Feel free to PM me as well. 

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Rental Property Investor · Clarksville, TN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y

@Laura Williams

I'd back charge him for any rework, drain cleaning, and cost associated with changing the locks. Then I'd share this information with the people you respect that have used him in the past.

Don't think there is much to be gotten out of a civil action, so don't think I would pursue that.

Captain Hindsight, Never fire someone with notice. Clean breaks are way better. He should have found out he was off the job when he was off the job.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams my advice would be to not own rental property long distance. It’s not a good investment. It’s actually incredibly risky and lots of opportunity for stuff like this to happen.

    Have you considered selling?

  • Tucson, AZ · Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 39 votes
    6y

    First post alert...

    I’ll bet that this guy charged you for the concrete... the fact that the police were unwilling to even consider taking a report is entirely unacceptable.

    You may have to do some detective work and then provide it to the police. For example, if you can prove that he bought concrete recently (and you paid for it) but he hadn’t done any concrete work for you recently... I don’t see how it’s not a reasonable suspicion that he used that concrete to destruct your personal property.

    Interview the neighbors and see if any of them observed him taking in bags of concrete. Look for other evidence, like old empty bags or mixing equipment.

    I work in Asset Protection for a National home improvement brand, and there’s certainly going to be video of him buying concrete from a Home Depot or Lowe’s about the same time you fired him. I find it unlikely that he just had spare bags lying around because they’re so messy and can’t be stored outside.

    Just my two cents! Give a little bit of evidence and sometimes the police will work hard to make it right.

  • Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
    6y

    @Caleb Heimsoth

    Sorry to burst your bubble but this was not a long distance rehab. If it had been the damage would have been thousands more cause sure it would have been discovered after someone was staying there and they had poop coming up in the basement. I was the one who called the plumber out right away cause I needed to clean the basement and the drain was starting to smell and puddle around the furnace.

  • Contractor · Coachella Valley, CA · Member since 2017 · 252 posts · 176 votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams You can report him to your state's contractor license board.  In CA I know they compile a list that is publicly available and will expose the person with a simple Google Search.

    https://www.cslb.ca.gov/Media_Room/Most_Wanted/

    Keep in mind that you have to prove he was the one that in fact did this...

    Regardless of proof, you can still file a complaint.  The fact that he does not have his license will also flag him in the future when applying to obtain a license.

  • Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 102 posts · 181 votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams

    1. What the cops are saying is inaccurate. I would call the police department and ask to speak to a detective. Tell them you'd like to file a restraining order and criminal property damage complaint.

    Let's say its Saturday night and you invite some friends over for a dinner party. While you're in the dining room one of your dinner guests goes upstairs to your bedroom while you're not paying attention pulls a can of spray paint out and sprays the words scumbag liar across your walls and windows.

    You invited them into your home right? Sure. If you invite someone into your home does that mean it's not criminal if they light your house on fire? Of course not. Does that strike you as a scenario in which you cant file a police report?

    Of course not. You're dealing with lazy cops. If they dont take you seriously the second time call the equivalent of your alderman or ward manager and ask them if they can help you with the lack of police response.

    2. Write a letter to anyone and everyone who recommended that contractor that starts with-

    "I hired Joe based upon your recommendation. The job took 4 months longer than was estimated. We had to give him several deadline warnings. He failed to meet those deadlines. We fired him off the job on thursday. On friday morning we encountered plumbing issues. After an inspection it was discovered that concrete was poured down every drain. I have no direct evidence that Joe did this but I strongly suspect he did. This had caused us thousands of dollars in damages. For the sake of your future business relationships I urge you to use caution in recommending this man again.

    3. Walmart sells a 20 dollar Geeni camera. Buy 5 of them and plug them into a job site on every angle. Front and back doors and immediate work areas. They have an incredibly easy app to you that allows you to view the job site. And has motion detectors.

    4. Buy cameras

    5. Buy cameras

    6. Buy cameras

    In the future it will tell you when and if people arrives on jobs. What actually happened throughout the course of the day. And I doubt he would have done what he did with cameras going or he would have unplugged them which is evidence of guilt in and of itself.

  • Contractor · Coachella Valley, CA · Member since 2017 · 252 posts · 176 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Meryl McElwain:

    @Laura Williams

    1. What the cops are saying is inaccurate. I would call the police department and ask to speak to a detective. Tell them you'd like to file a restraining order and criminal property damage complaint.

    Let's say its Saturday night and you invite some friends over for a dinner party. While you're in the dining room one of your dinner guests goes upstairs to your bedroom while you're not paying attention pulls a can of spray paint out and sprays the words scumbag liar across your walls and windows.

    You invited them into your home right? Sure. If you invite someone into your home does that mean it's not criminal if they light your house on fire? Of course not. Does that strike you as a scenario in which you cant file a police report?

    Of course not. You're dealing with lazy cops. If they dont take you seriously the second time call the equivalent of your alderman or ward manager and ask them if they can help you with the lack of police response.

    2. Write a letter to anyone and everyone who recommended that contractor that starts with-

    "I hired Joe based upon your recommendation. The job took 4 months longer than was estimated. We had to give him several deadline warnings. He failed to meet those deadlines. We fired him off the job on thursday. On friday morning we encountered plumbing issues. After an inspection it was discovered that concrete was poured down every drain. I have no direct evidence that Joe did this but I strongly suspect he did. This had caused us thousands of dollars in damages. For the sake of your future business relationships I urge you to use caution in recommending this man again.

    3. Walmart sells a 20 dollar Geeni camera. Buy 5 of them and plug them into a job site on every angle. Front and back doors and immediate work areas. They have an incredibly easy app to you that allows you to view the job site. And has motion detectors.

    4. Buy cameras

    5. Buy cameras

    6. Buy cameras

    In the future it will tell you when and if people arrives on jobs. What actually happened throughout the course of the day. And I doubt he would have done what he did with cameras going or he would have unplugged them which is evidence of guilt in and of itself.

    It's such a shame that a few bad apples give the contracting profession such a bad wrap that customers feel the need to install cameras beforehand for what if scenarios.  

    This is case and point of why you only work with people you thoroughly vet and who you KNOW, LIKE & TRUST!

  • Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 102 posts · 181 votes
    6y

    @Trenton Miller

    I sub in on a lot of high dollar commercial work and their job site procedures have taught me a ton that I've brought over to residential.

    Cameras are not even a question on commercial jobs. There always there from every single angle. They prevent accidents because do less stupid things when they know they're being watched.

    In Chicago we use geofencing for everything now. You have to have an app on your phone that's tracks your steps on a job site.

    You have to take pictures of everything. Videos of everything you complete. Inspections are done in camera. But it saves a lot if heartache.

  • Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 41 votes
    6y

    It's bad to hear about that contractor cementing your drains, although as a silver lining your experience is an example of how to improve both your future experiences and others. I learned quite a bit on this post and I appreciate the input. I never considered using some form of cameras on the job site, nor did I consider the vetting process in such detail as several on this thread has mentioned. I'll definitely keep those tips in mind once I begin REI, especially the cameras.

  • Member since 2018 · 41 posts · 23 votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams That's terrible what he did! Criminal complaints require proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, while civil complaints only require a preponderance of the evidence. Did he ever get his license? You could sue his bond quite easy if he's licensed! If he isn't licensed, I guess you learned something

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 30 votes
    6y

    I've heard that a lot of the time when there is a contractor with a new LLC that they've had problems like this in the past or their last LLC got sued, so they just open up a new one. Perhaps one should inquire if they had any other LLC's in the past and if they have, then why that one is no longer in use. It might help to weed out the ones that are honestly trying to start a company from the ones that have had legal troubles with their "disposable" entities previously.

  • Whittier , CA · Member since 2013 · 176 posts · 96 votes
    6y

    1. It is not worth your life. People be crazy(drugs involved=1000x) 

    2. See if you can get a police report on the vandalism. Not about the contractor just damage. You have great pictures!

    3. Call your insurance company and see what is covered under vandalism.

    4. Good luck!

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:

    @Matthew Paul. "I would love to hear the contractors side to this event . To go to those lengths there is more to this story"

    Ya? What would the contractor need to say for you to think any of this was ok?

    What happened was wrong . But ....... without hearing the other sides story , and the numbers involved , and seeing the scope of work , I find it hard to believe someone with a fairly good reputation would do this without a reason . 

  • Rental Property Investor · MI · Member since 2019 · 192 posts · 205 votes
    6y

    @Meryl McElwain

    Thank you. You just taught me something.

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams quite a leap to get a silver lining out of this, but that pipe you dug out looks like it was either leaking already or about to go. Water, sewage etc under and around the foundation would have created major issues and at least this is a clear cut insurance claim while sewer issues can be dicey. Don’t ask me how I know :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Enterprise, AL · Member since 2019 · 137 posts · 85 votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams Daaaanng!! That is messed up. Sorry to hear about this.

  • Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Laura Williams:

    I had a rental house in Kansas City come vacant in January and hired a handyman ..in process of trying to become a contractor (he had recently formed an LLC company)... to replace some tiles and paint...simple job and nothing complicated. He came highly recommended as he had done good work for a couple people I respect & I had used him on smaller fixes and no problems. He also used to work at a large respected property mngt company that manages 1000 properties.

    My job was suppose to be done end of February and we kept giving him extensions until finally we got super fed up & gave him a hard deadline of last week. We told him we'd pay him for whatever he could finish by then but he was off the job...fired basically. The work he did was extremely poor quality and mostly having to be redone. I suspect he might have fallen into hard drug use based on the work quality of what I saw & what the neighbors told me they saw of him when he did show up in the middle of the night. I did pay him partial payment and withheld funds to fix what wasn't done or done poorly...more than fair.  Although he let it be known that he thought he had done a perfect job & was completely delusional about it. 

    I noticed the basement drain backing up on his final day after he had just left (and before he knew what he was going to get paid) but just thought it was the drain clogged and yesterday when my plumber came out he found there were rocks and cement that had been flushed down the sewage pipes which was causing the sewage to back up in the basement. There is even cement that was poured down the tub drain and cement over the drain in the basement..every plumbing hole he could find he poured cement in. My plumber said whoever did this spent a lot of time flushing rocks and he estimated about 80 pounds of cement down the sewer. He said it had to have been flushed down the toilet to get that far in the pipes & it was a crap ton of cement and whoever did it took A LOT of time to get that much rocks and cement down the pipes. I called the police and they told me that because I don't have him on video and no one saw him do it and because he had legal permission to be in the house working on it when this was done there was nothing they could do. They wouldn't even do a report. 

     No one else but him had keys/access to the house so clearly it was him or someone he brought in to work with but can't imagine why anyone but him would have a motive to do this & go to this much trouble. I feel he did it to get back at me for firing him. 

    I am also afraid of what he is capable of doing if I publicly go after him too hard seeing how crazy he is but at the same time he's going to be out there possibly working for other investors or property management companies or homeowners etc and is a dangerous & super vindictive psychotic person. 

    I am interested to hear what advice you guys have for me as I'm not sure what my next step to be. Feel free to PM me as well. 

     One of the reasons why I do not recommend long distance investing.  You cannot really visit the place and see what the contractor is doing.  You can sue him in civil court, but you really do not have any proof on what was done and if he actually did it.  It is basically heresay and would be accepted by the Court.  You have little remedy here because you are unable to prove that he actually did this.  If, however, he was a general contractor, you may be able to file a complaint against his license.  It seems, he's not technically licensed yet.  I'd talk to a lawyer in KC and see what they say.  I do not think you have a legal remedy here.  However, you may be able to claim vandalism or some sort of relief through your insurance company.  Speak to your insurance agent and see what your policy covers.  Aside from that, you may be SOOL.

  • Crystal SmithPro Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Laura Williams:

    I had a rental house in Kansas City come vacant in January and hired a handyman ..in process of trying to become a contractor (he had recently formed an LLC company)... to replace some tiles and paint...simple job and nothing complicated. He came highly recommended as he had done good work for a couple people I respect & I had used him on smaller fixes and no problems. He also used to work at a large respected property mngt company that manages 1000 properties.

    My job was suppose to be done end of February and we kept giving him extensions until finally we got super fed up & gave him a hard deadline of last week. We told him we'd pay him for whatever he could finish by then but he was off the job...fired basically. The work he did was extremely poor quality and mostly having to be redone. I suspect he might have fallen into hard drug use based on the work quality of what I saw & what the neighbors told me they saw of him when he did show up in the middle of the night. I did pay him partial payment and withheld funds to fix what wasn't done or done poorly...more than fair.  Although he let it be known that he thought he had done a perfect job & was completely delusional about it. 

    I noticed the basement drain backing up on his final day after he had just left (and before he knew what he was going to get paid) but just thought it was the drain clogged and yesterday when my plumber came out he found there were rocks and cement that had been flushed down the sewage pipes which was causing the sewage to back up in the basement. There is even cement that was poured down the tub drain and cement over the drain in the basement..every plumbing hole he could find he poured cement in. My plumber said whoever did this spent a lot of time flushing rocks and he estimated about 80 pounds of cement down the sewer. He said it had to have been flushed down the toilet to get that far in the pipes & it was a crap ton of cement and whoever did it took A LOT of time to get that much rocks and cement down the pipes. I called the police and they told me that because I don't have him on video and no one saw him do it and because he had legal permission to be in the house working on it when this was done there was nothing they could do. They wouldn't even do a report. 

     No one else but him had keys/access to the house so clearly it was him or someone he brought in to work with but can't imagine why anyone but him would have a motive to do this & go to this much trouble. I feel he did it to get back at me for firing him. 

    I am also afraid of what he is capable of doing if I publicly go after him too hard seeing how crazy he is but at the same time he's going to be out there possibly working for other investors or property management companies or homeowners etc and is a dangerous & super vindictive psychotic person. 

    I am interested to hear what advice you guys have for me as I'm not sure what my next step to be. Feel free to PM me as well. 

    I'm going to limit my response to what I would do next:

    • Protect the property from any further damage - Prior to releasing a contractor we change the locks & depending on the neighborhood we may install steel doors from DAWGS. While it increases our cost it's still often less expensive than what a fired contractor may try and do.
    • Change all security codes- We change all codes before releasing a contractor. If we're able we install cameras on projects.
    • You say the contractor has an LLC- Given that file a complaint with the BBB. This isn't much but a nuisance to the contractor but the complaint becomes a warning for other investors who may use the BBB.
    • File with your insurance company
    • File another report with the police- If they won't do a report then go up the line to a detective. You'll need the report for your insurance company
    • Call the people that made the recommendation- Make them aware of what happened so they do not recommend him to anyone again
    • Regarding filing a suit- It may not be worth the time & money. You'd also probably lose because while your speculation may be true, if you have no evidence you'll lose the case. Plus he has no money.
  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams so you live in KC and not NYC

  • Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
    6y

    @Caleb Heimsoth

    I’m in NYC when I don’t have rehabs or turnovers going on in KC.

  • Rental Property Investor · Murrieta, CA · Member since 2016 · 129 posts · 67 votes
    6y

    Oh no! I have heard of homeowners doing the cement down all drains back in the foreclosure waves of 2008-2011 but I had never heard of a contractor attempting this! Mostly because all of the contractors and subcontractors that I know are worried about their reputations, insurance, and contracting license. I would change the locks, repair everything, and keep all documentation then file a small claims case against him. I wouldn't bother hiring an attorney because little is likely to come of this but you mention he started an LLC he might have taken out handyman insurance etc that if named might pay for this.

    I would definitely tell the people that referred him, as well as leaving a review under his LLC and personal names on google, yelp, and the BBB. I would also contact the state licensing board.

    The chances of getting money from him in court are slim, if anything the negative reviews, notices from BBB, notices from the state board, then the notice from the court will force him to come to you to pay the damages and go back to hiding under whatever rock he scurried out from under.  Even this has a small chance of working but coming at him from several sides at once might make him think you are far too much trouble to not just pay back quickly and get away.


    SO LUCKY you are a local and this didn't happen to an OOS investor!! Other investors pay attention and make sure you never fire anyone with access to your properties.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Laura Williams:

    @Caleb Heimsoth

    I’m in NYC when I don’t have rehabs or turnovers going on in KC.

    So it is long distance and my advice still stands.  Even if you fly there (which is going to be costly and you probably shouldn’t be doing given COVID-19 and you’re from NYC) 

    I would listen to @Calvin Thomas. He owns a lot of stuff and is in your own backyard.  Probably a good guy to listen to.

    I have owned long distance before and it’s a massive headache.  Have you made any money on this deal? Be sure to calculate your true return with all the travel and everything accounted for. 


  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 345 posts · 281 votes
    6y

    Sorry that you are facing this situation.  Cement-in-the-pipes is a nightmare scenario. 

    If it is as bad as you describe, I don't know how one could repair it without replacing all of the sewer pipes in the house - cutting into the slab etc. 

    I can't see how this repair wouldn't exceed the deductible on your insurance policy.  
    If you hired an unlicensed contractor to perform the work, the insurance company may not cover the situation. "In the process of getting an LLC..." You can get an LLC in a few days in California. And an LLC is certainly not a contractor's license.

    How much work was the person supposed to complete (in dollar terms) and how much had you paid him?  

    How many similar jobs have you run prior to this situation?

  • Investor · Lawrence, MA · Member since 2017 · 48 posts · 16 votes
    6y

    I once had a tenant a tennis ball in the pipe somehow, cost me 2 grand.

    But this is quite extreme.

    I would certainly take videos and pictures of everything and talk to an attorney on possible options.

  • Real Estate Agent · Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Laura Williams - I’m so sorry this happened to you. Ideally you’ll file in small claims court against this guy to get something on his record.

    I had a similar instance where a day laborer entered my rehab and stole $1000 of tools and materials after I told him “G” and my house sitter that I wasn’t hiring him “G” anymore but he could contact me to get HIS tools. He let himself in with a stolen key to the back door he changed (after having shown me both back door keys inside the house on the table and I changed the lockbox combo to the front door). I called the police and because it was a small town they showed up because I claimed it as a robbery but they immediately blew me off when I said he had worked with me and I fired him and then he reentered my property and stole MY tools (tile saw etc). Didn’t go anywhere.

    Things I’ve learned- 1. always invest in obvious and hidden WiFi cameras with cell phone alerts for motion detection. They’re cheap now. I was able to follow when my guy was on site this last rehab and i know now to fire fast anyone who stops showing up daily. 2. Get photo of his drivers license with current address (even better if you can run a background or credit check like companies do for employees.) 3. Hire someone recommended by someone you know (which you did). 4. Get written signed contract with schedule and charge a fee if they finish late. I charged $100/day on a $3000 job. (Though when I did this with a tile guy after he disappeared for 5 days probably on another job he never picked up a call from me again.) 5. Get a big scary looking guy in your life- and have him available to visit your contractor or be on site for a visit if you feel you’re getting taken advantage of.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Straight-up nuts. I hope the best outcome for your efforts to recoup your losses and hold this person responsible. A tall and delicate order to be sure.

    As far as some of the responses here that imply somehow there is another side of this story - wow - I'm not sure if I'm more shocked with the contractor or some of the responses here.

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