Can bitcoin be utilized in real estate?
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Can bitcoin be utilized in real estate?
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Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 409 posts · 105 votes
12yYou know a bubble has reached its peak when...
150 Replies
- 12ySteven Hamilton IIPro MemberAccountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
it is irrelevant as the requirement is worldwide income. All currencies must be converted to US dollars. The transaction side is no different than the existing transaction base. Meaning rent is still reported as rent. You just have to make an additional calculation.
- 12yRoy N.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I get that part, but would we be dealing with a currency gain/loss on any transaction if BitCoin is not recognized as a valid currency?
- 12ySteven Hamilton IIPro MemberAccountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Originally posted by Roy N.:
@Steven Hamilton II
I get that part, but would we be dealing with a currency gain/loss on any transaction if BitCoin is not recognized as a valid currency?
No, unless you were trading us dollars and bitcoins specifically.
- Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes12y
@Michaela G.and @J Martin
Here you go:
http://news.msn.com/science-technology/vegas-developer-selling-dollar785m-mansion-for-bitcoin
- Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 409 posts · 105 votes12y
Originally posted by @Troy Fisher:
@Michaela G.and @J Martin
Here you go:
http://news.msn.com/science-technology/vegas-developer-selling-dollar785m-mansion-for-bitcoin
Another marketer with no actual end plan that has not really thought this through.
- 12yJ. MartinPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@Michaela G. , if you don't have any BTC yet, set up a wallet on coinbase.com and send me the bitcoin address. I'll give you a little bit ;)
@john rooster, you're right that at this point it is marketing hype. Its hard to find a compelling reason it is truly better. But it is so easy to do nowadays, you can lock in the rate by tying to USD and there are bitcoin escrow companies. So there's not really much to hash out.. Its just people who want to add marketing sizzle and expanded audience, even if u don't transact in bitcoin. There's no way some average $7.5mm luxury home in Vegas would have made the newspaper or a blog/forum without it.. So couldn't hurt. Don't overthink it. It is what it is for now: a marketing ploy.. No need to hate..
@troy fisher, that's not news! Both Michaela and I already put our properties up for Bitcoin!.. Some others are just coming around! Lol. But mine is about $100k over market, so someone has to REALLY want it for bitcoin to get any action.. Set up a wallet and I'll send you a little for free. Just for ***** and giggles.
Mr rooster, I will even give you some for free! If it goes to $0, you will have the satisfaction of knowing that u should have hated it all even more than u do today. If it goes to $1mm, we'll both be laughing all the way to the bank (maybe w u begrudgingly laughing) Either way, life will go on and I'll have a smile on my face as usual..
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it. Unfortunately, they won't let me set up a wallet, because I don't have a credit card. I pay with cash or debit card and they don't accept that as verification.
Oh, well ;-)
- Real Estate Investor · Lansdowne, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 656 votes12y
@Michaela Graham
I don't know of its legitimacy or not but I just saw a property being offered for sale on craigslist and it welcomed bitcoins and lightcoins(not sure of the spelling) as a barter. There was an additional link within the post which I did not click on but I guess your idea is getting around. :-)
Kudos,
Mary
- 12yJ. MartinPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Don't be so quick to give up @Michaela G. ! That site can be used to purchase from your bank account also, which is why they ask for financial verification. You can get a wallet that doesn't require a credit card and more info about wallets at this link. Then I'll send you some.
http://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet
By the way, I am going to make my first bitcoin payment for an actual transaction tomorrow. I went to a hiking group on meetup.com today and met some cool folk (and a BEAUTIFUL hike through the presidio, land's end, baker beach, and sutro.) There's a $2 "fee" for something, that the leader takes through paypal. I asked if she'd accept bitcoin instead (because I can't remember my paypal password and have my bitcoins handy). She said, "I'd love to!" She's getting her wallet tonight and I'm going to send it tomorrow. Just for novelty's sake for her at $2. But still, interesting... And the first time it's actually easier for me than another payment system, even if only for own forgetfulness of my PayPal password..
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
When I had tried to set it up last week, it required both for verification: Bank account as well as credit card. Wouldn't let me do it with just one. I'll figure something out.
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12yBit-coin does not provide you insurance like the FDIC does and if one of those Bit-coin collect a boat load of money and close up shop you are out of luck because they are in another country.
Joe Gore - 12yJ. MartinPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@Michaela G. check the other wallets on the link on my post above. The wallet software for your computer does not need any verification at all, because it's stored on your own computer, not on their server. There are other online wallets that don't need verification in that link I believe.
@Account Closed , you are absolutely correct that there is no FDIC insurance. I consider holding it highly speculative, as stated before, which I am doing. And I plan on sending Michaela some for free (when she gets her wallet!). So no risk for her. You are also right that there are a lot of spotty, or at least non-transparent exchanges out there for purchasing it. I use coinbase.com because it's based in San Francisco where I live (so at least it's in the US and I know where to go yell at someone!) But that's why a lot of people store it offline ("cold storage") where it cannot be taken, hacked, etc. because it is not connected to any network. It can be stored on a flash drive and stashed safely in your favorite spot.. I didn't use BTC-E because it's in Bulgaria, w/ unknown owners.. and there's enough risk in the price itself.. totally with you on all that.
ps. if you get a bitcoin wallet, I'll send you a little bit too for free.. ;)
@Mary B, Was it my property in Richmond? lol
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
They're accepting rent in bitcoin
https://www.rentalutions.com/bitcoin
- Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 43 posts · 0 votes12y
Very interesting! I personally would not accept Bitcoin since nothing is really "backing" it. I understand that the value of Bitcoin is quickly appreciating, but I would assume a possible "bubble" would occur.
- Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes12y
You said you used coin base but when I look at their website red flags came up. No business phone number, no business address listed on their site but a little digging, they used this address 1 Bluxome St, Apt 410, San Francisco, CA 94107. The one behind coin base is Brian Armstrong and Fred Ehrsam
Joe Gore
- 12yJ. MartinPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@Account Closed , they're located in a loft-type space over there in the SOMA in SF where you had identified. You're right about no phone number, but you can shame them on their twitter or FB accounts if you have any problems or can't reach them online. Not an entirely unusual way for an online company to handle tech support. But not stellar either. And they also recently raised $25MM from some reputable private equity firms, so while their contact information may be below typical brick-and-mortar standards, it is a WORLD above what is available to buy bitcoin (ps I just bought some other coins such as lightcoin, feathercoin, peercoin, etc on btc-e, an exchange in bulgaria with an unknown owner. How's that for comparison?!) Coinbase is looking for people with a regulatory background, so I was actually thinking about stopping by and seeing what job opportunities are available..
However, with all of these, you can make the purchase, then transfer the BTC offline so no company has access and no one can hack it. Buyer beware though! On all of it! You are not crazy to be suspicious..
- 12yEngelo RumoraBusiness MemberInvestor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Originally posted by @J. Martin:
@Account Closed , they're located in a loft-type space over there in the SOMA in SF where you had identified. You're right about no phone number, but you can shame them on their twitter or FB accounts if you have any problems or can't reach them online. Not an entirely unusual way for an online company to handle tech support. But not stellar either. And they also recently raised $25MM from some reputable private equity firms, so while their contact information may be below typical brick-and-mortar standards, it is a WORLD above what is available to buy bitcoin (ps I just bought some other coins such as lightcoin, feathercoin, peercoin, etc on btc-e, an exchange in bulgaria with an unknown owner. How's that for comparison?!) Coinbase is looking for people with a regulatory background, so I was actually thinking about stopping by and seeing what job opportunities are available..
However, with all of these, you can make the purchase, then transfer the BTC offline so no company has access and no one can hack it. Buyer beware though! On all of it! You are not crazy to be suspicious..
Thanks J Martin,
Coinbase was pretty straight forward for me to set up.
Bought some Bitcoin and sent to Litetree where I bought Litecoin and sent them to my personal wallet on my laptop lollol
Thought I might as well have some involvement just in case it really takes off. I believe the ship has potentially already sailed on this one.
Thanks and have a great day.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes12y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
@Kizzy Robb , I don't know a whole lot about it, but have started looking into it.
The first time a lot of us probably heard about it is, when they closed down "Silk road' , which was/is a website selling drugs and other things. That's why I, until recently thought that this was just related to illegal business.
I have since heard about it from the guy, who's been acquiring bitcoin as an investment. I also just heard about a guy in Norway, who bought $ 27 worth of BC in '09, as part of an experiment and forgot about it. He recently was reminded when it was in the news and found out that his wallet now had the equivalent of $ 850,000 , due to the increase in value. He sold 10% and bought a condo.
It's kind of a bartering system and there are +12,000 worldwide merchants that accept BC. It's anonymous and is presently not taxed. But I'm sure as there's more and more acceptance, the treasury will come up with a way to want their share of it.
Retailers like Amazon, Sears, WHole Foods, Staples etc are all accepting bitcoins. It looks as if you can buy giftcards, which you can then trade for merchandise.
Had no idea what this was, after it hit 93 posts, thought I'd look. Last Monday watched a very early British finance news show. A British investigator was speaking on this subject. The Euro union and World Banking authorities are in the process of cracking down on the net financial transactions. The transactions can and are traced, but difficult. Money laundering investigators are all over this and regulations are changing, just like the Swiss bank accounts can be pierced to depositors now.
Don't think I'd get involved in something that has intelligence people crawling all over it, I'd hate to get a call saying return the drug money, or the funds from some terrorist group. RE is a great way to wash money. Cash transactions are reported in RE. As many agencies that are involved in these issues, I don't see getting involved, at least in large sums. I doubt they are too concerned with a $250 purchase at Sears for consumer goods on our side of the pond, but big bucks....? Not smart IMO. :)
- Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
@Bill Gulley The interesting thing about BTC (and all its derivatives) is that all transactions are recorded in the block chain. The complete history of the "currency" is in the block chain, and you can literally trace your BTC transactions back to the miner who was awarded the 50 BTC generation award. Here is a BTC block explorer if anyone is interested. Many early blocks (e.g. all of blocks 90-100) have never been redeemed and there are no other transactions (other than a solo miner award) in the block. Talk about wealth transfer! Later blocks (e.g. 275637) show how mining operations distribute across a large pool.
These transactions are anonymous in that the only thing recorded is the BTC address, not a name. But if someone (like an investigator) can correlate an address to a person, then the complete history of every transaction related to that address is at their instant disposal. Imagine that! Take a $1 bill out of your wallet. Imagine if you could instantly trace every transaction that bill ever saw... all from the green serial number (C 02586001 B). You can't with cash, but you can with a BTC block explorer.
Sidebar: As retail BTC transactions increase, these block chains are going to get huge and synch operations will get substantially larger/longer.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes12y
Maybe what I thought it was isn't what it is! I say again, I'm no techie type and I don't get involved in internet transactions....well, besides buying vehicles off ebay (LOL). It's Greek to me, just passing on what I heard on the news and impressions. :)
- 12yJ. MartinPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
thanks for chiming in Chris! Sounds like you're more familiar than most..
Bill , you're not too far off.. Chris is right regarding the transactions being recorded on the block chain. But I don't think its very easy to trace the bitcoin address back to a hot body. Federal regulators in US have all said that there are similar bsa/aml risks as cash. Ironically, proposed regulation has generally caused btc price to go up, because it seems to be granting legitimacy/acceptance that it is on the map. But it got slaughtered recently when China told payment processors not to process for btc-china, the biggest exchange. So took a big hit on the chin the last week.. About back to break even after being up over 100%. As I said before, highly speculative.
engelo, you can send your btc to btc-e if you want to buy litecoin, feathercoin, peercoin, ripple, etc. Then you can send the coins to ur laptop wallet or cold storage offline if u don't trust btc-e. The boat sailed a few times already. We'll see if its still making any new voyages..!
- 12yEngelo RumoraBusiness MemberInvestor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Originally posted by @J. Martin:
thanks for chiming in Chris! Sounds like you're more familiar than most..
Bill , you're not too far off.. Chris is right regarding the transactions being recorded on the block chain. But I don't think its very easy to trace the bitcoin address back to a hot body. Federal regulators in US have all said that there are similar bsa/aml risks as cash. Ironically, proposed regulation has generally caused btc price to go up, because it seems to be granting legitimacy/acceptance that it is on the map. But it got slaughtered recently when China told payment processors not to process for btc-china, the biggest exchange. So took a big hit on the chin the last week.. About back to break even after being up over 100%. As I said before, highly speculative.
engelo, you can send your btc to btc-e if you want to buy litecoin, feathercoin, peercoin, ripple, etc. Then you can send the coins to ur laptop wallet or cold storage offline if u don't trust btc-e. The boat sailed a few times already. We'll see if its still making any new voyages..!
haha
Thanks J
What a crash today lollol
- Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes12y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Well, if you set the option that you don't want it into your wallet, but immediately sent to your bank account at the current conversion rate, and if you set your price in US$ and only accept bitcoin at the present conversion rate - I really don't see a huge risk.I can tell you've not done a transaction. There is "currency" risk in the execution time of the transaction.
Honestly, I don't quite get what you are doing. The assumption I'm making is this actually can be accomplished with an attorney or title company, using BTC as consideration, and you want USD. If you've sold anything with BTC using a third party escrow, you'd realize there is massive volatility as escrow clears. +/- 10%, 20% or 30% in translated fiat currency is to be expected, but of course the total BTC is fixed. So in an ideal transaction, just deal in BTC and no worries. Or just deal in USD and no worries. It's in the fiat exchange where things get goofy.
Example: Sale price of $100,000 USD paid by BTC. Your closing was supposed to be at 9AM this morning, and the fiat adjusted price of $100,000 USD ($601/USD BTC-e) is set. Something comes up and closing is rescheduled, d the fiat adjusted price of $100,000 would be $71,547 USD at the rescheduled 2:30PM closing ($430/USD BTC-e). So for real estate, contracts in BTC can be all over the map. I can't imagine a year lease paid in BTC. Too volatile. Let's say your 9AM closing really happened at 9AM. Your $100,000 USD ($601/USD BTC-e) price was paid in BTC, and your attorney's paralegal finished recording at 10AM. BTC at 10AM to 10:30AM ranged from 552 to 588. If you sold "immediately" in the moments after recording, with you sitting there with your smart phone ready to 'dump' your wallet as soon as the paralegal transferred the closing proceeds, you'd get (excluding any fees) $91,846 to $97,837 depending on the minute. Wait an hour and you're out $10K+. Of course, it also works the other way if your closing was a few days ago. That $100K could net you $130K in a few hours "work".
I'll take any form of USD payment for rent, but only BTC and LTC with the understanding that there is significant volatility. Closing a real estate deal with a transaction involving a "currency" exchange is unrealistic IMO.
- 12yJ. MartinPro MemberRental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
@Chris Martin , I think the idea was to put all the timing risk on the buyer and an exchange such as coinbase. You would have to quote the buyer the bitcoin price RIGHT at close, then sell immediately through coinbase or a similar site. Coinbase "freezes" the buy or sell price right when you click it on the current spot price, even though the coins take some time to transfer.. (and USD funds take time to hit your bank account. but the rate is fixed at the time of execution of the transfer). Much like a stock exchange. That's where I bought mine. I wouldn't mind taking it for rent, as long as the rent price is fixed to USD and they pay variable BTC based on my actual exchange rate when they transfer it to me..
Either way, there probably is some timing risk like you said, even with the exchange/fix services out there.. The trick will be finding a bitcoin escrow service that understands you have to price it at the very last minute.. maybe have the escrow keep some extra funds from the buyer as agreement to pay any fees/conversion to get it to USD in seller's bank account...
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