Septic System insurance
Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes
Septic System insurance
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Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
11yMuch of the advice given already puts you in the right direction. Step 1, know more about what the condition of the system is that you are buying. A key question to ask the seller is how often do they have the tank pumped. If they don't know, inspect closer. The correct answer in most cases is every 2-3 years. Smaller septic tanks require more frequent pumping.
Knowing how the system works should reduce your fear. It is pretty simple, so I will throw in a quick description of the basic principal. You get the picture of what generally goes down the drain. It consists of various liquids as well as solids (paper, etc.). It first flows out of the building and goes into a septic tank. The tank is designed to always be full of SOMETHING, so at any given time, if you take the covers off, it will always LOOK full. Don't let that confuse you over what happens when you pump the tank every couple years. Follow with me another couple minutes. So the tank is always full. At the inlet side (sewer coming in from the house), you have a mix of everything that goes down the drain. At the septic tank, the solids tend to settle to the bottom and grease tends to float to the top. Think of the septic tank as a separation point. There is then a pipe going OUT of the septic tank to the leach field, aka the outlet. The outlet is generally located high in the tank, but SHOULD have a baffle installed on it so that the grease that is floating in the tank isn't permitted to "float" down the pipe. Picture a "T" laying on it's side, with the short leg pointing down a little longer than the leg pointing straight up. The lower leg is how the water enters the outlet (water will seek it's own level, so even though the lower part of the leg is underwater, it will fill up both inside and outside that leg at the same level BUT the water enters the leg at a lower elevation, hopefully below the level of accumulating grease. The upper leg of the "T" or outlet baffle is simply to equalize the air level inside the tank.
Continuing downstream, the liquid going out of the outlet pipe travels to the leach field. The leach field is the point where liquid waste is "spread out" in essence and given a chance to absorb into the ground. Soil is a natural filter.
That gives you a very general idea of how a septic system works. There can be different types of systems, but they all operate on the same general principal. Waste enters a tank to be separated, and the liquid portion of the waste is distributed into a network of pipes that disperse it into the soil.
Here are a few very common problems that you will find.
1) Most common is lack of upkeep. Maintaining a septic system is REALLY easy - have it pumped every 2 years to start and ask the contractor if they recommend more or less frequency. What you NEVER want to let happen is to let the solids build up high enough from the bottom OR the grease layer get so deep at the top so that either is allowed to enter the outlet pipe. Have the pumping contractor inspect the outlet baffle and replace it immediately if there is a problem. This does not cost very much to do. Figure $ 200-400 depending on your location (it is around $ 200 in my area for the average size tank) and maybe $ 100-150 tops for the baffle replacement, which, if done with PVC pipe, will last longer than you and me. Regular pumping removes the solids in the bottom and grease at the top.
2 )trees/bushes allowed to grow too close to any part of the system - the roots infiltrate the system and plug the lines (this happens with traditional city sewers too!). Regular mowing over the top of the leach field does 2 things - it keeps brush from growing on top of it as well as allowing the liquid to evaporate. Contrary to common beliefs, leach fields disperse more water from evaporation than they do by soaking into the ground!
3) Do not every dump grease or oil down the drain, this includes cooking grease. Normal dishwashing is fine. If you have a commercial use, such as a restaurant, then you may also have a separate grease trap and/or a grease separator underground. However, most residential systems don't have one. You will have a reasonable capacity for normal grease from everyday life, but intentionally dumping grease down the drain is bad. Eventually, it will overload the baffles ability to hold that grease and it will allow grease to travel into the leach field. The grease will eventually start to "seal" the leach field and reduce and eventually eliminate it's ability to disperse the liquids.
4) Do not drive cars, trucks, or heavy equipment over the septic system. It can crush lines and collapse the tops of tanks.
5) Do not use chemical drain cleaners (Draino, etc.), they quickly deteriorate the concrete components and cause failure.
6) Adding various enzymes and bacteria is up for debate. Personally, I think it is a waste of money. I'm sure that will spark other various opinions. Nature has it's way of taking care of things all by itself. Regular pumping is a better use of money. When the tank is pumped is also the PERFECT time for a quick check up. You generally have to request this of the pumping contractor. If you don't know what you are looking for, spend the money to have a quick check up done every time it is pumped.
Don't let septic systems scare you. An ounce of prevention is worth a hundred pounds of cash to fix the neglect.
If you have an inspection done before you buy the property, have the tank pumped, the baffle on both the inlet AND the outlet inspected, the distribution box inspected (this is an extra, ask for it!) and the end of at least one line uncovered. Expect to pay anywhere from $ 500 - 1,500 for a thorough inspection, THIS is your insurance policy. If you buy a working system, then do regular preventive maintenance, it will last a very long time. I have seen systems that are 50 years old and still functioning. I have also seen systems that are 5 years old and NOT functioning.
Hope that helps. Good luck
31 Replies
- Real Estate Investor · Puyallup, WA · Member since 2015 · 13 posts · 8 votes11y
I'm not to sure about specific insurance for septic but would imagine that if you ask they will try to sell you something. Your best line of defense is to educate yourself about the system that you have. Here in the Seattle / Tacoma area you can find the records on file with the county. Typically it is a plan review that was submitted by the septic company for approval prior to the house being built. I would imagine it is the same where you are. Once you have that information contact a couple of contractors and they can better explain what you have and how to maintain it. Also, Google is your friend. Hope that helps.
- Real Estate Investor · Albemarle, NC · Member since 2015 · 86 posts · 16 votes11y
People that are new to septic systems should familiarize themselves with basic septic maintenance - treating with bacteria monthly - not using bleach etc. The pumping process to remove excess solids would vary on your local businesses something like 300-500 bucks depending on the volume. Most septic systems work great even the old ones -- occasionally you'll have a leech field issue causing a complete system replacement 6-12k or a bad tank with holes in it -900-2k. In my opinion its just like buying a home without knowing if the HVAC system is operational or not. Do not think insurance covers this but I could be wrong - hope that might help a bit at least even though i didn't answer any of your questions! LoL
- Canton Ms. Tacoma Wa. · Member since 2014 · 117 posts · 39 votes11y
I have a similar situation so I went to the county to pull an as built. The house is too old so they didn't have one on file. So had to dig it up get a good inspection. Make sure everything's working and then you're good to go. The old systems are the most simple. I don't think you need insurance I think you need an inspection.
- Real Estate Investor · Albemarle, NC · Member since 2015 · 86 posts · 16 votes11y
by the way replacing the septic system involves an inspection process by the local health department etc permits the whole 9 -- and its usually a 2 month wait dealing with the red tape -- at least in my area!
- Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes11y
Thank you so much. I will contact with the ciy tomorrow or ask my agent to get info on septic system.
- Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes11y
Much of the advice given already puts you in the right direction. Step 1, know more about what the condition of the system is that you are buying. A key question to ask the seller is how often do they have the tank pumped. If they don't know, inspect closer. The correct answer in most cases is every 2-3 years. Smaller septic tanks require more frequent pumping.
Knowing how the system works should reduce your fear. It is pretty simple, so I will throw in a quick description of the basic principal. You get the picture of what generally goes down the drain. It consists of various liquids as well as solids (paper, etc.). It first flows out of the building and goes into a septic tank. The tank is designed to always be full of SOMETHING, so at any given time, if you take the covers off, it will always LOOK full. Don't let that confuse you over what happens when you pump the tank every couple years. Follow with me another couple minutes. So the tank is always full. At the inlet side (sewer coming in from the house), you have a mix of everything that goes down the drain. At the septic tank, the solids tend to settle to the bottom and grease tends to float to the top. Think of the septic tank as a separation point. There is then a pipe going OUT of the septic tank to the leach field, aka the outlet. The outlet is generally located high in the tank, but SHOULD have a baffle installed on it so that the grease that is floating in the tank isn't permitted to "float" down the pipe. Picture a "T" laying on it's side, with the short leg pointing down a little longer than the leg pointing straight up. The lower leg is how the water enters the outlet (water will seek it's own level, so even though the lower part of the leg is underwater, it will fill up both inside and outside that leg at the same level BUT the water enters the leg at a lower elevation, hopefully below the level of accumulating grease. The upper leg of the "T" or outlet baffle is simply to equalize the air level inside the tank.
Continuing downstream, the liquid going out of the outlet pipe travels to the leach field. The leach field is the point where liquid waste is "spread out" in essence and given a chance to absorb into the ground. Soil is a natural filter.
That gives you a very general idea of how a septic system works. There can be different types of systems, but they all operate on the same general principal. Waste enters a tank to be separated, and the liquid portion of the waste is distributed into a network of pipes that disperse it into the soil.
Here are a few very common problems that you will find.
1) Most common is lack of upkeep. Maintaining a septic system is REALLY easy - have it pumped every 2 years to start and ask the contractor if they recommend more or less frequency. What you NEVER want to let happen is to let the solids build up high enough from the bottom OR the grease layer get so deep at the top so that either is allowed to enter the outlet pipe. Have the pumping contractor inspect the outlet baffle and replace it immediately if there is a problem. This does not cost very much to do. Figure $ 200-400 depending on your location (it is around $ 200 in my area for the average size tank) and maybe $ 100-150 tops for the baffle replacement, which, if done with PVC pipe, will last longer than you and me. Regular pumping removes the solids in the bottom and grease at the top.
2 )trees/bushes allowed to grow too close to any part of the system - the roots infiltrate the system and plug the lines (this happens with traditional city sewers too!). Regular mowing over the top of the leach field does 2 things - it keeps brush from growing on top of it as well as allowing the liquid to evaporate. Contrary to common beliefs, leach fields disperse more water from evaporation than they do by soaking into the ground!
3) Do not every dump grease or oil down the drain, this includes cooking grease. Normal dishwashing is fine. If you have a commercial use, such as a restaurant, then you may also have a separate grease trap and/or a grease separator underground. However, most residential systems don't have one. You will have a reasonable capacity for normal grease from everyday life, but intentionally dumping grease down the drain is bad. Eventually, it will overload the baffles ability to hold that grease and it will allow grease to travel into the leach field. The grease will eventually start to "seal" the leach field and reduce and eventually eliminate it's ability to disperse the liquids.
4) Do not drive cars, trucks, or heavy equipment over the septic system. It can crush lines and collapse the tops of tanks.
5) Do not use chemical drain cleaners (Draino, etc.), they quickly deteriorate the concrete components and cause failure.
6) Adding various enzymes and bacteria is up for debate. Personally, I think it is a waste of money. I'm sure that will spark other various opinions. Nature has it's way of taking care of things all by itself. Regular pumping is a better use of money. When the tank is pumped is also the PERFECT time for a quick check up. You generally have to request this of the pumping contractor. If you don't know what you are looking for, spend the money to have a quick check up done every time it is pumped.
Don't let septic systems scare you. An ounce of prevention is worth a hundred pounds of cash to fix the neglect.
If you have an inspection done before you buy the property, have the tank pumped, the baffle on both the inlet AND the outlet inspected, the distribution box inspected (this is an extra, ask for it!) and the end of at least one line uncovered. Expect to pay anywhere from $ 500 - 1,500 for a thorough inspection, THIS is your insurance policy. If you buy a working system, then do regular preventive maintenance, it will last a very long time. I have seen systems that are 50 years old and still functioning. I have also seen systems that are 5 years old and NOT functioning.
Hope that helps. Good luck
- Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes11y
Thank you very much Adam. I have disclosure that said they pumped in June, 2013. And they owner this property since 2009. I will definitely get home inspection done on (I have very good company). You provided me very useful information. I am newbie in REI and still learning a lot of stuff. Well I am going to create a list of question to owner and agents.
Thank you again for suggestions and advises. Very very helpful.
- Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes11y
Originally posted by @Mike Haikin:
Thank you very much Adam. I have disclosure that said they pumped in June, 2013. And they owner this property since 2009. I will definitely get home inspection done on (I have very good company). You provided me very useful information. I am newbie in REI and still learning a lot of stuff. Well I am going to create a list of question to owner and agents.
Thank you again for suggestions and advises. Very very helpful.
Glad to help. Note, however, that it is very possible that your home inspector will NOT include a thorough septic inspection. I am not familiar with common practice in your area, but in my area the septic inspection is generally performed by a septic pumping contractor. In order to do a complete inspection, the tank must be pumped to check for cracks. It will likely also require minor excavation in the leach field.
Also remember in every investment to ask, but VERIFY. I always ask seller's tough questions, but as much as possible, I always try to verify the answers to make sure they are truthful. As an example, on a commercial property deal that I ended up not closing on, I asked the seller if there were ever any underground fuel tanks, he stated no. I paid for a Phase I inspection (not cheap) and discovered that according to records, there were at some point underground tanks on the property and no evidence they were ever removed. The seller claimed he didn't know about them. That may or not be true. Either way, had I not verified his answer by spending a couple thousand dollars on the Phase I, I could have been stuck with a huge environmental cleanup bill later on.
Good luck. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
- Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 515 votes11y
@Mike Haikin around us with our hard cay soil we have to install some very expensive systems that can range for 25-40k so this is common for us, though it wont cover all of it, if you have to have complete replacement. Also we are not allowed to replace only the tank without updating the leech field. http://www.earthcare.us/residential/pro-sept-septic-system-warranty/
- 11yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I have several properties on septic. If it is an older gravity system there are not too many parts. All of which are describe above.
A couple of additional points. Some states will give you a septic certificate- that means only that you have a septic tank. One of my earliest mistakes was thinking that meant the system was pumped out.. that did not turn out well. You may have a state required inspection, in MA we had to have one but that was not sufficient for what we wanted checked.
If it is a newer system or the system location spreads over a large area you can have a pump. The pump will move the septic farther along to the leach field. If this exists have it checked. Restrict the tenant disposal of personal care products as well. If you have one of these pumps it will jam with wipes etc. Most systems don't have a pump. You can also have a septic alarm in a newer system. These newer systems are more common in areas with sensitive wetlands. An alarm well you just need to know the tenants know what it is and don't call the fire department.
Know where the tank. You will want to dig it up and have it pumped. Also if it is under the drive you want to know what the drive on weight limit is.
Hope that helps.
- Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes11y
Thank you so much for the help. I'll try to collect all information from owner and make a decision. Thanks again.
- Insurance Agent · Maitland, FL · Member since 2015 · 397 posts · 244 votes11yA septic systems maintenance or breakdown would never be a covered claim. It is not covered property or is it a covered cause of loss. So as stated above, risk management of an inspection and sinking fund (almost literal meaning here) would be the best advice.
- Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes11y
I've never seen septic failure insurance, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Preventive care is the best policy.
In addition tanks should be pumped every 3 to 5 years and examined for damage.
Nothing except toilet paper down the toilet.
No paper towels
No baby wipes
No tapons, pads or other products
No garbage disposal
No gasoline, paint, thinner, or any petroleum product.
No rice
No coffee grounds
No food scrapes
No drugs
No household cleaners
No condoms (There's a story about somebody having their septic pumped. The pumper told the owner, "You shouldn't be flushing used condoms down the toilet." The owner said, "I had a vasectomy, I don't use condoms.")
- Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes11y
Originally posted by @David Krulac:
(There's a story about somebody having their septic pumped. The pumper told the owner, "You shouldn't be flushing used condoms down the toilet." The owner said, "I had a vasectomy, I don't use condoms.")
That gave me quite a laugh! As funny as it sounds, these can be very problematic too, depending on where they end up. They can expand to an amazing size if the land wrong and are a very effective (but unintended) plug that can stop all flow through the pipe.
It is amazing the things people put down their drains. It is equally amazing how destructive this can be and how difficult it can be to get them back out of the system. I could rattle off quite a list of things we have found so far...but that's another topic for a new thread.
- Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes11y
Go for it!
Things found in septic tanks:
Jewelry, rings, watches, necklaces, bracelets
tooth brushes
toys
balls
underwear
brass door knob....
- Real Estate Investor · Browns Valley, CA · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 13 votes11y
Much of the information that I would provide about maintenance and inspections is listed above by other awesome members here on Bigger pockets. Septic's are common in my area and I have overseen 20+ full system replacements, hundreds of repairs and thousands of inspections over the last decade. a system replacement in my area usually runs between 20k-40K. and a property will be red tagged quickly if you do not have an operational sewage system so don't take this lightly. MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE THE SEPTIC TANK AND LEACH FIELDS INSPECTED AND CERTIFIED IN GOOD WORKING ORDER BEFORE YOU PURCHASE.
Here is a few suggestions that I didn't see mentioned above.
1) Home warranty insurance companies have "ad on coverage" for septic systems. this will not cover everything but it might be worth looking into or asking the seller to provide a one year policy to help ease your fears.
2) Check with the local utilities and government office to determine if city sewer is available to connect. Many times utilities have been added and are available to hook up for substantially less than replacing a septic system in the case of a failure down the road.
3) Remove garbage disposals. if the property has garbage disposals your tenants will use them which add additional solid waste to your system.
4) Get a copy of the "site plan" for the septic as it was installed. this should be available at the local government office Here in CA it is the "environmental health dept". Be sure that your septic was permitted for the number of units and bedrooms that actually exist. Pay careful attention to the location of the septic system and leach fields in conjunction to the structure and the well (if applicable). If the property has a well make sure that the well is more than 100ft from septic and an all leach fields. You will not be able to obtain standard or FHA financing if well and septic are to close together. If the property has a well you should have it inspected also and make sure that a water sample is sent to the lab to determine that there is no e-coli in the water. (nasty but its much more common than you think). This could indicate that the sewage is leaching into the groundwater.
I hope this helps :)
Sarah Becker
- Real Estate Investor · Browns Valley, CA · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 13 votes11y
We found a septic tank with car parts and a tire in it. Another common one is deceased household pets. apparently people flush more than just gold fish. eww.
one of my septic inspectors even found a human skull. Thank god that wasn't my property. freaky!
- Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes11y
@David Krulac I would have to say my most "unique" find was an entire fish, and not a small one. It was an intact brown trout (it was really a fish). Coincidentally, the tenant that complained about the sewage backing up into his bathtub, and called me a horrible landlord, was to blame. Here's my story:
Tenant calls, sewage backing up into his tub, calls me all sorts of names. Major issue, we call in our drain snake guy because his machine is much heavier than ours. Kind of cleared the drain line, but he wasn't satisfied, said it didn't "feel" right pulling the snake back. Even though it allowed liquid by, I trusted his judgement. We had a camera run down the line to see if we had a partial collapse in the line. While watching the camera screen, he tells the operator to stop and back up. Neither one can believe it, there is a WHOLE fish, probably 12" long or so, in the pipe. The fish was introduced into the line tail first, so as it is "pushed" down the line, it's spines on its fins tend to open, which causes it to not move very far in the pipe. This has essentially lodged it in the pipe. He calls to tell me and we are both scratching our heads as to how in the world a fish this size even got where it was. It was way too big to go down a toilet.
He proceeds to run a root head down the pipe on his snake that he has modified to essentially grind the fish up (it was deceased already), and clears the line. In the meantime, I'm still scratching my head. I called my main repair guy to share a good laugh and a wild story, and he says, "oh, I bet that was Rick's, he has several trout he keeps in an aquarium". This particular tenant is semi-handy. Apparently, he knew enough to remove the plug from the sewer line in order to "flush" the fish, but didn't know to put it in head first. When I called him to tell him that it was not me being a poor landlord, but rather him being a poor tenant, he stopped complaining and hasn't bothered me since.
- Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes11y
When red all posts I must ask the question: do you want to buy investment property with septic system and wait until some tenant(s) start calling you and start complaining? Is it worse it? How much you have to get from this property to cover your headache? Or sleepless ?
- Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes11y
@Mike Haikin - no matter what systems are involved with any particular property, there are risks/challenges. Understanding what you are working with makes it much more tolerable to accept them.
In my opinion, having some general knowledge and understanding is enough to let me sleep at night.
- 11yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
you might be able to get the septic covered with an extended after market home warrently policy that you can buy.. just need to check if they cover septic systems..
- 11yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
also if they only cover a few thousands dollars that won't cut it for todays systems as stated above Septics are pretty expensive these days depending on the state.
- Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes11y
I spoke to insurance agent and he said he does not provide an insurance for septic system even he has that system in his house. I declined to give an offer to that house.
- Flipper/Rehabber · West Bloomfield, MI · Member since 2015 · 34 posts · 0 votes11y
Thank you very much to everyone for very useful and helpfull information.
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