Anyone else primarily in stock index funds and 20% or less in RE?

Anyone else primarily in stock index funds and 20% or less in RE?

Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes

Hi all,

A little background - (skip to the tldr at the bottom if you get bored) I'm mainly a buy and hold index fund investor. While I'm certainly no finance major, everything I've read about investing has led me to keep stock index funds as my primary investment vehicle. I don't see much of a point in active stock trading because over the long haul it's damn near impossible to beat the market. I max out my tax-advantaged space (401k, IRA etc.) and plow the rest into a taxable brokerage account. I can do all this with a few taps on my smartphone within minutes. By my estimates (6% real return on average compounded annually) I may have a million dollars in about 10 years. I could also have 500k if the markets tank like they've been known to do, and here is where Real Estate investing comes into play for me.

The major weakness of my current investment plan is sequence of returns risk. I plan to retire early, and withdraw 3-4% of my total portfolio value (the value at the time I retire) annually. While the S&P 500 may average 9-10% before inflation over the long haul, it will be extremely volatile, and I want to avoid having to withdraw as much during market downturns. I'm looking at Real Estate investing (buy and hold rentals) as a way to reduce that volatility. Many people would recommend 30-50% bonds to reduce the volatility, but I am retiring in my 40s and need my money to last. That requires assets with more potential for growth to sustain a 40-50+ year retirement. Buy and hold rentals seem like they offer a great ROI (maybe even better than stocks) with the added benefit of not being as vulnerable to temporary 30%+ drops in value. They'll require more work, though, at least initially.

With that being said, my current plan is to wait until I hit 200k net worth in a little less than a year, and then allocate 10-15% of my total portfolio to a rental property or two. I want it to be passive cash flow, so I will be looking for a property manager. I just want to sit back and collect a steady check. 10-15% will allow me to sleep at night without fear of delaying my early retirement by a decade or more if things go wrong, and help me get my feet wet with my first property or two. If things go very right, I can continue to use leverage and boost my total return while still investing the lion's share of my capital into index funds. 

Tldr - anyone else here primarily stock index fund investors that are looking to ease into RE? Do you see any flaws in my plans, or have suggestions to improve them? This post may seem a bit odd on a Real Estate forum, but I love to talk shop about early retirement and the many ways once can achieve those things. I figured I'd try and spark some related convo, so please feel free to ask questions if I wasn't clear on some points, or chime in if your interests are piqued. 

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Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
10y

Enjoyed your thoughts.. I am sure there are quite a few Bogleheads here.. Hard to beat the index funds (as so many studies and active investors have shown).... 

On your early retirement date (40's), where real estate may help you is if you are (like me) keeping the bulk of your index fund wealth in a tax deferred (401K, 403B) account not accessible (without penalty or hardship, etc) until 59 and a1/2. So it is looks amazing on paper and will make you feel 6, 7 (maybe 8) figures great, but you can't do much with it feasibly for a decade or more if you retire in your 40's (not even buy a cup of coffee). 

Sounds like you'll have some accessible accounts, too. But with the employer match and automatic monthly purchase, dollars to donuts that one is probably the biggest kid in your portfolio class in a decade or two...Contrast real estate--it can give you real green money you can fold and put in your pocket every month at all stages of life. Rents will rise, ideally you keep fixed costs in check, and cash flow increases... Aside from dividends (even at a couple percent yield) you don't get much cash from index funds (unless you sell, which brings up timing issues). So I like real estate as a cash flow generator ( the "steady check" you mention) for you, say, at ages 40-59.5, but I would also encourage you to look at self managing if feasible (and you are willing and able) as it really helps you keep costs in check and boost cash flow, but there are lots of great PM's out there, many active on this site. Best of luck! 

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  • Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
    10y

    Enjoyed your thoughts.. I am sure there are quite a few Bogleheads here.. Hard to beat the index funds (as so many studies and active investors have shown).... 

    On your early retirement date (40's), where real estate may help you is if you are (like me) keeping the bulk of your index fund wealth in a tax deferred (401K, 403B) account not accessible (without penalty or hardship, etc) until 59 and a1/2. So it is looks amazing on paper and will make you feel 6, 7 (maybe 8) figures great, but you can't do much with it feasibly for a decade or more if you retire in your 40's (not even buy a cup of coffee). 

    Sounds like you'll have some accessible accounts, too. But with the employer match and automatic monthly purchase, dollars to donuts that one is probably the biggest kid in your portfolio class in a decade or two...Contrast real estate--it can give you real green money you can fold and put in your pocket every month at all stages of life. Rents will rise, ideally you keep fixed costs in check, and cash flow increases... Aside from dividends (even at a couple percent yield) you don't get much cash from index funds (unless you sell, which brings up timing issues). So I like real estate as a cash flow generator ( the "steady check" you mention) for you, say, at ages 40-59.5, but I would also encourage you to look at self managing if feasible (and you are willing and able) as it really helps you keep costs in check and boost cash flow, but there are lots of great PM's out there, many active on this site. Best of luck! 

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Thanks for the reply, Michael. I wanted to quickly address the tax advantaged accounts being inaccessible until 59 1/2. There are actually some crafty ways to get that money out prior to that age, maybe even tax free depending on one's income needs. Things like a "Roth ladder" and 72t distributions. You can also take out the contributions to a Roth IRA at any time, just not the gains. I have to run but look forward to expounding on those things and picking up this conversation tomorrow.

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Your main problem is your assigning detailed numbers based on best guesses which will almost certainly not be accurate down the road. I'm more invested in stocks than Real Estate as a diversification play. While I don't think your thought process is vapid, I do think you are making overly detailed plans based on amorphous and nebulous predictions.
  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Michael Boyer so... like I had mentioned in my previous post, there are some neat tricks one can do in order to access those 401k, IRA accounts prior to 59.5. The Roth Ladder for me would go as follows:

    1. Year 1 of early retirement I begin living off of a combination of CDs, T-bills and taxable index fund money. 
    2. In that same year, I begin the "Roth ladder" and convert money from my Traditional IRA to a Roth. Just enough to keep my tax burden as low as possible (aiming for 15% bracket where capital gains taxes are 0%) because the amount converted will count as earned income for the year.
    3. I do this every year for 5 years and in that 5th year, I'm able to access the amount I converted from TIRA to Roth in that first year tax... and penalty free. Each subsequent year I'm able to tap the conversions I made 5 years prior to it in the same way. 

    You can google for a better understanding, but it's a great loophole to get the money out. If that gets closed with new legislation, I should still have quite a bit in taxable accounts and have the option of filling gaps with rental income, 72t distributions, working part time. Since my income needs would be low, these strategies work well for me. 

    Re self managing, it may be tough for me to find properties in my area for the amount of $ I'm willing to put towards RE, which would be approximately 20-30k initially. I've got some time to look into my surrounding markets while I save up, though, so hopefully I have that option. Otherwise, it may be long distance and a PM would be my only option.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Steve B. To your first point about detailed numbers based on best guesses:

    - My detailed numbers aren't so detailed. In 10 years I may have 1 million, 500k or nothing. It depends on the stock market, but I'm confident that over the long term I will average somewhere in the vicinity of 6% real return. I guess this because it's close to what a lot of financial planners will base their investment strategy on when creating a road map for standard retirement, and this is actually lower than what the market has averaged in the past. Investing requires risk, and that requires hoping/guessing for a particular outcome in the future. This is unavoidable for us all. 

    To your second point about overly detailed plans based on amorphous or nebulous predictions:

    - I disagree that my predictions are nebulous or amorphous. They're based on popular research on stocks and in particular the Trinity Study. I also think having overly detailed plans can be better worded as planning in order to mitigate risk, and allow for alternate methods of generating income in the event that things don't go as planned.

    I'm hoping RE will offer me another layer of protection when it comes to the stock market's inherent volatility. Relatively consistent cash flow from a few buy and hold rental properties seems like a great way to keep the dreaded bad sequence of returns risk (which can quickly doom a retirement portfolio) at bay.

  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Sean Tracey I am not as good at the stock market as I am with real estate, so I chose to mainly invest in RE. I do max out any tax advantaged accounts that my husband and I have access to - Two Roth IRAs, his 403b and my SEP IRA. There are ways I could save more like a solo 401k, but after saving what amounts to be around 50k/year, I prefer to put any extra toward RE. So, we currently have 5 rentals, and I hope to add a few more before I start aggressively paying down the mortgages. At this rate, I think I can comfortably predict retirement in a max of 22 years, when my kids finish college, which would make me around 58.

    The above is my worst case scenario.  I like my job, so I don't mind working now, but I would like the financial freedom of deciding to work for the joy of it and not for the money.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Thanks for sharing @Dawn Brenengen. When it comes to investing, it's all about what we're comfortable with. It's great to see you're still maxing out all tax-advantaged accounts. You're definitely getting the best of both worlds with that. I'm not "good" at stocks either, so I just throw my money into total market index funds like total u.s. market, total international etc., with some tilts towards smaller sectors. I hope you get that financial freedom you're looking for. For me, my #1 priority is to have financial independence, so hopefully real estate can help me achieve that goal faster, or more efficiently. In a little under 10 years I'll be evaluating my next steps as far as retirement goes. I'll either continue working to pad my portfolio, look into a lower stress + slightly lower paying job, work part time or travel the world cheap for a few years and then live off my investment returns. Best of luck to you, and if you ever have questions about the tax-advantaged accounts/early retirement don't hesitate to reach out. I follow a few great blogs and forums that offer a wealth of info on both subjects. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Sean Tracey Thanks so much for posting, I am in a very similar situation. I have probably 10+ years of experience in stocks, and I've done most everything (Day trading, swing trading, options, index funds, etc). I have poured many many hours into studying the stock market and I have come to the conclusion that the more boring I invest the better my returns. I have done complicated options strategies and day trades that were very exciting when my returns were huge on a few minutes of work, and other times I had to cry myself to sleep. I absolutely hated the up and down nature of active investing. 

    With that said, I have recently dedicated all of my paper assets and any accounts that I manage and any advice I give out to just go into index funds. Don't touch your account because the more you mess with it the worse your account will perform (proven fact). 

    I am however, looking to move into real estate full time and invest close to 100% of my paper assets into real estate. I think it is a much more stable and proven method to wealth creation. 

    I have heard many arguments that returns in stocks are higher with less work than real estate. My own research disagrees, as I have found that returns in real estate can be higher, and more importantly; more consistent. You also have so much more control with real estate than you do with stocks. 

    I honestly recommend to everyone to invest in real estate over stocks, and I am not just recommending this, I am actually doing it myself. I am happy that I will never wake up one morning and have an asset worth 10% less than it was when I went to sleep.

  • Investor · Lake Forest Park, WA · Member since 2015 · 108 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    I'm also in the camp of favoring both index funds and real estate. My strategy is to put taxable funds toward RE downpayments, and keep retirement funds in index funds to diversify across both these classes. This way my taxable funds are placed in the best tax shelter available, and index funds that are normally tax inefficient (bonds and REITs) are also in tax shelters. I understand some folks like the idea of putting retirement funds into real estate, but I've also read and agree that it doesn't make sense to put a tax shelter inside another tax shelter, given that you can't take depreciation tax deductions or use mortgage leverage with retirement funds, reducing your retirement returns. 

    Since you are looking to spend only $20k-$30k on your first rental and possibly do it out of state in a more affordable market, you may want to consider investing through a turn-key company in markets like Memphis, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Cleveland, Dallas, Houston, Birmingham, or Jacksonville, FL. They acquire, completely rehab, screen and place tenants, then sell you a finished package, then manage it for you afterwards - in effect a one-stop shop to make it as passive for you as possible, since they want to keep you as a repeat client. True, they do sell you the property at or just below market rate, but for busy full time w-2 career folks, it can be worth it to avoid having to vet and then coordinate the realtor, RE attorneys, title companies, contractors, inspectors, and property managers. $20k-$30k can act as the downpayment on a $90k-$130k property, which generally attracts higher quality tenants, hence fewer problems and higher returns. Also cashflows around $200-$300/month.

  • Developer · Cleveland / Akron, OH · Member since 2008 · 922 posts · 399 votes
    10y

    @Sean Tracey One major assumption of your plan is that 3-4% withdrawal rate at early retirement. When those monte carlo scenarios were originally done and then verified again in the late 90's, they were calculated for a standard retiree with a standard life expectancy.

    The models were not calculated to include someone retiring at 45 with a standard longevity.  Adding twenty years of withdrawals (and twenty years of market/economic risks) pushes the withdrawal rate down (and the success rate I would presume as well).  I just want you to approach everything with eyes open.

    Yes, rentals will most likely return greater than the S&P indexed average over your investment lifetime.  The same as with your equities, reinvest all proceeds and tax savings associated with the properties.  If you are self managing you will be earning some of this increased return, which is fine. If you outsource management you may find a 5-7% return increase over the indexes (nationwide average), which may or may not be worth the risk/effort. But you will definitely get the diversification (or downside risk protection) that you are looking for.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Luka Milicevic glad to see you've moved towards passive index fund investing. Luckily I never got into active stock trading. I doubt I'll ever move completely away from my index investments since they offer a great balance between risk, reward and the effort they require. There are also a lot of ways to utilize the tax-advantages of retirement accounts. I will start out slow with my RE investing, and as I learn more and get comfortable with doing it I'll adjust my allocation accordingly.

    I'm ok with the lower returns of stocks since they require so little effort. If real estate works out for me, it will be a great way to soften the blow of the volatility of stocks.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Charles Moore I agree regarding the tax efficient investing methods you touch on. I'm all about reducing my tax burden. I have briefly researched turnkeys, but I'm skeptical that they can offer me enough of a ROI. I'm looking to outperform my stock funds with RE, at least initially, and think I'd have a better shot by avoiding turnkeys. I'm still learning, so my thoughts may change on that. Currently, I'm considering looking within a 2 hour drive radius from me, finding a realtor that can show me some foreclosures that require superficial work and have a general contractor fix the place up a bit to create some more value. The thought of having someone else take care of all of that for me is extremely tempting, but I know I'll be paying for it with reduced returns.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Ryan Arth you're 100% correct on approaching things with eyes open. I appreciate the feedback. From the research I've done, I guesstimate a 50 year retirement and use a 3% withdrawal rate which has survived in 100% of backtested scenarios using something like a 60/40 stock to bond portfolio. That of course does not guarantee anything for the future, but I do base my plans on that.

    I am hopeful about Real Estate because like you say, it offers that downside risk protection, but I may also be able to increase my overall return if I do things right.

  • Investor · Lake Forest Park, WA · Member since 2015 · 108 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    @Sean Tracey I agree with going for higher returns with real estate over index funds. That's why I am looking at returns of 13% or more cash-on-cash as I myself am researching turn-key options. 

  • Professional · Topeka, KS · Member since 2016 · 29 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    @Sean Tracey - First post on BP here.  I am working down the same line of thinking as your are with real estate as a complement to an equity portfolio.  I run a private investment fund of equities and private non real estate investments.  Some added thoughts that I have had to round out the discussion.

    • Tax Loss Harvesting (TLH) - Since you are thinking about early retirement, you might increase the percent of your equities in the brokerage account portfolio.  Since you will be adding funds to this portfolio continuously, you can actually save on taxes by harvesting short term losses and building up unrealized gains in a diversified equity portfolio.  After "retirement" in the low income tax bracket, you can probably realize these gains at very low long-term capital gains rates.  You can do this on your own or there are robo-advisers that specialize in TLH.
    • Margin Availability - Another reason to add a greater percent to a taxable brokerage account is you can always access additional liquidity through margin loans.  I would suggest a firm like Interactive Brokers since they have very low margin rates (1.87% as of 3/28/16).  Remember it is not leverage that destroys plans, it is liquidity.  Having low cost liquidity available to smooth out a real estate portfolio is great.
    • Re-balancing - I think of real estate as a portfolio diversifier that complements an equity portfolio.  Both of the asset categories have distinct investment cycles.  My goal would be to keep a consistent allocation between equities and real estate.  If the equity market drops then dividends and real estate cash flow would go into equities.  If equities are doing tremendously well acquire another real estate investment property.  It is this consistent diversification that should drive future returns and create a stable fast growing portfolio.  My current thoughts are a 50/50 split with 50% leverage mostly made up of long term fixed rate loans.  
    • Assumptions - I am a huge fan of equities, but I think the 6% real return for equities might be overly optimistic for the next decade with valuations at higher levels.
    • Fixed Debt as an Inflation Hedge - One of the largest current risks to the equity markets are an increase in interest rates and subsequent decrease in PE ratios.  If you are a buy and hold investor with longer term mortgages, a long term fixed rate will actually act as a hedge against increasing rates, shrinking PE ratios, and increased inflation.
    • Real Estate as a Business - I am thinking when I reach potential retirement that I will have hopefully learned enough in the real estate investment world to make this into a business.  By learning and creating a competitive advantage in a niche will allow me the flexibility and freedom to pursue other interests without having to worry about a paycheck.
  • Developer · Cleveland / Akron, OH · Member since 2008 · 922 posts · 399 votes
    10y

    @Sean Tracey I agree on all points, regarding turnkeys and such. In general you pay for convenience, sometimes dearly. Your net return on a managed turnkey product could negate all increased returns to the point where all you did was diversify stock market risk.

    And yes, you are in the right place because there are quite a few Finance wonks floating around the forums. What you are researching is where I started in the beginning. The more I saw the value add and control aspects of Real Estate, the more I pulled that direction away from the original, more balanced, model. 

    Obviously there is a whole level above what is being discussed here, as far as tax efficiency and such is related. Owning RE within retirement accounts, in particular doing rehabs within IRAs, can provide huge tax advantages.

    Setting the model and then tweaking it based on personal comfort level and/or new information/education is a natural process.

    I personally pushed the allocation further away from indexes and more towards RE as time went on.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Cory Tuck welcome to the forums :) 

    • re TLH: I've considered it, but wasn't all that impressed with the savings once I factored in the lowered cost basis. It also took me out of the passive nature of the investing when I thought about having to lock in those losses, sell and avoid the wash sale rule. I'll probably never go with a robo-advisor for my taxable stuff, but may look into TLH again to see if it's something I'm willing to do manually. Do you know if I can use the losses against my earned income before offsetting any gains? That may make it worth my while. I don't really worry about keeping more in taxable for early retirement. You can see my earlier posts about the Roth ladder and 72t for clarification as to why. 
    • I don't see myself ever investing on margin when it comes to stocks because for me that's where it's all passive. I've accepted the currently risk level, and wouldn't want to complicate things too much on that front. 
    • I love the diversification aspect of real estate. I won't be going 50/50 to start, but I'll certainly be willing to consider ramping up my RE allocation if I think I'm ready for it. 
    • I wouldn't argue with you on the 6%. However, I think valuations are always hitting new highs and don't see any reasons to keep my estimates lower than that. They may end up lower or higher, but we'll only know once we get there. 
    • I agree on the potential hedge. I've totally embraced the concept of leverage, especially in the current interest rate environment. I'm hoping to be able to secure some good long term fixed rate terms for the properties I pick up.
    • Good luck on that front. I'm sure by that time you'll have enough knowledge and experience to make that a reality.
  • Rental Property Investor · Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2014 · 205 posts · 136 votes
    10y

    I built a securities portfolio based on index funds prior to beginning my REI activities. Now I still contribute to get my company match in a 401k but I am now investing after tax savings exclusively into RE. I wish I had started earlier and more aggressively in RE and foregone some of my stock asset accumulation.

    I don't think RE works that well with just a couple of rentals.  There is too much variance and risk.  Each property is like picking an individual stock and your variance will be high.  But when you have a larger portfolio of RE properties, it's more like an index fund - it doesn't kill you to have one property vacant or trashed - and you can acquire the portfolio using leverage.  In addition to cash flow, you will accumulate equity courtesy of your tenants.  I simplistically think of my rental properties as piggy banks with a constant trickle of money from the tenant into the piggy bank.  Then when the piggy starts to get somewhat full, you can empty it out (cash out refinance) and let it start accumulating again.  If you have plenty of rentals at different levels of equity accumulation scheduling the use of that equity is another alternative to paying off rentals and owning free and clear - and of course there is nothing wrong with that either.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Sean Tracey:

    @Charles Moore I agree regarding the tax efficient investing methods you touch on. I'm all about reducing my tax burden. I have briefly researched turnkeys, but I'm skeptical that they can offer me enough of a ROI. I'm looking to outperform my stock funds with RE, at least initially, and think I'd have a better shot by avoiding turnkeys. I'm still learning, so my thoughts may change on that. Currently, I'm considering looking within a 2 hour drive radius from me, finding a realtor that can show me some foreclosures that require superficial work and have a general contractor fix the place up a bit to create some more value. The thought of having someone else take care of all of that for me is extremely tempting, but I know I'll be paying for it with reduced returns.

    I think you are going to struggle to find foreclosures through an agent that just need minor work. Four years ago, there were tons of foreclosures, but that well has dried up. The foreclosures that do show up are hunted by many flippers that have the same idea as you. Foreclosure bargains through the MLS are just not a great strategy today in my opinion.

    I have observed many people running from the stock market to real estate investing, which makes me wonder if the opportunity may be better in the market. Never follow the heard as they say!

    I don't personally plan to get out of real estate, but I do watch the trends and right now prices are very inflated, so it is getting harder.

    I think you are on the right track because of the many advantages of real estate, but just timing wise I think you will need to work harder to find a deal. My advice is don't get sucked into a money pit foreclosure on your first deal.

  • Developer · Cleveland / Akron, OH · Member since 2008 · 922 posts · 399 votes
    10y

    @Joe Splitrock I think your assumption about people leaving the market for RE is a good observation fundamentally. I do not believe that that indicates a buying opportunity in the stock market, but more so an inflation in RE pricing.

    If you look at the trailing PE ratios of the S&P 500 and the softness in the economy (see the general mood in recent earnings reports), I believe that we are overvalued with the Dow at 17500 relative to what the fundamentals show. Long term you can be long on the US for sure, but in the short term I do not believe that a buy signal is warranted.

    If the RE and the stock market are both inflated to intrinsic values that is probably an indication of the public having most free cashflow to invest right now, driving up pricing. Better than buying motorhomes and going on vacation, but not good for us investors.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ryan Arth:

    @Joe Splitrock I think your assumption about people leaving the market for RE is a good observation fundamentally. I do not believe that that indicates a buying opportunity in the stock market, but more so an inflation in RE pricing.

    If you look at the trailing PE ratios of the S&P 500 and the softness in the economy (see the general mood in recent earnings reports), I believe that we are overvalued with the Dow at 17500 relative to what the fundamentals show. Long term you can be long on the US for sure, but in the short term I do not believe that a buy signal is warranted.

    If the RE and the stock market are both inflated to intrinsic values that is probably an indication of the public having most free cashflow to invest right now, driving up pricing. Better than buying motorhomes and going on vacation, but not good for us investors.

    I agree with your assessment. So what do think the smart move is? Sit on some cash and wait it out? Look for pockets of opportunity?

  • Phillip Y.Pro Member
    Birmingham, AL · Member since 2015 · 53 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    I like that explanation, @Cliff Harrison. How are you heading against a real estate bubble?

  • Professional · Topeka, KS · Member since 2016 · 29 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    @Ryan Arth - I think your point is very good about both the real estate and the equity markets being possibly overvalued.  We have a reached a point in the cycle where yields (including equity market earnings yields) are low.  There really aren't that many great deals out there in the equity markets.  I have take a tactical tilt a little more towards International Developed Equity Markets (like Europe & Japan) which haven't seen near the run up & have experienced currency weakness.

    @Joe Splitrock & @Phillip Y. - My suggestion would be to pay down debts and stay diversified in equities and real estate.  Maybe hold some cash and be opportunistic in real estate deals.  This would not be a time in the market where I would be leveraging up and going for broke.

    @Phillip Y.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Cliff Harrison those are some encouraging words. I've also thought about the concentrated risk associated with just owning one or two rental properties. It's actually eased my concerns about pursuing RE. I figure even if I get a bad tenant or have a few capital expenditures that lower my profit initially, I can feel confident that diversifying with other properties may reduce the impact on the overall portfolio. Longer term, things should level off at a more healthy ROI if I buy right and manage things properly. Adding leverage, equity paydown and depreciation to the mix really makes it an attractive path. Just have to be smart about the leverage aspect.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 130 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Joe Splitrock thanks for the feedback. It doesn't surprise me that it would be difficult to find foreclosure deals that require only minor work. I'm hoping that after enough research I'll have uncovered a few different ways of getting in at the right price point. 

    I agree regarding not following the herd. To me, investing is a long term proposition. I invest in the stock market whenever I have the excess capital to do so. Market fluctuations/valuations are irrelevant to me. I have no idea if things will go up or down in the short term, but over the long haul I do expect them to rise steadily. If you think you're ready to invest in the stock market, there's no better time than now. That advice would stand no matter what the current valuations were. I do not attempt to time the market since it's been proven that doing so is unlikely to work out in one's favor. 

    Real estate seems to be a different animal, though. I can see an argument being made for holding cash for the right opportunity. Let's hope those right opportunities come up when I have my downpayment.

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