Druid Hill Avenue, Baltimore Maryland - how does the area rank?
Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote
Druid Hill Avenue, Baltimore Maryland - how does the area rank?
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
9yOriginally posted by @Mariama R.:
Thank you for your suggestions - I will take a look at this meetup. May I ask why you don't feel comfortable investing in this area? How do the people investing there and in similar neigborhoods make a lot of money - is it via rehabbing and flipping or rehabbing and renting out? I'm concerned that several murders took place on this street.
I personally only invest in high income areas such as Montgomery County and DC. But I do not need a ton of cash flow. I have enough cash flow from my properties to suit my needs and I have a high income job, so I do not invest with the the goal of creating a ton of cash flow. Many of the people who do invest in cheaper neighborhoods in Baltimore are investing specifically for cash flow, and many people call it the cash flow capital of the east coast. Some of these guys up there like @Matt Schelberg probably have as much or more cash flow on their sub $100k properties as I have on one of my $400-$450k properties, with considerably less invested than I have.
I basically have a rule that if I or my wife wouldnt live in the property, or if I wouldnt send my wife alone to the property to collect the rent at night, I wouldnt buy it.
But everyones goals with investing are different, everyones risk tolerance is different, and everyones ability to manage different types of tenants is different. There is money to be made in Baltimore, its just not for me.
District Invest Group545 Reviews
29 Replies
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes9y
I'd suggest looking at the neighborhood both in the daytime and night time. I'd also suggest going to the BWI Meetup and the Anne Arundel Investors Meetup to talk to other people who invest in the area to see if it's an area you are comfortable investing in. For me personally this is an area I would not be comfortable investing in....but I have a very very low risk tolerance. Many people in the area do invest there and similar neighborhoods do make a lot of money.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thank you for your suggestions - I will take a look at this meetup. May I ask why you don't feel comfortable investing in this area? How do the people investing there and in similar neigborhoods make a lot of money - is it via rehabbing and flipping or rehabbing and renting out? I'm concerned that several murders took place on this street.
- Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 0 votes9y
Its a D neighborhood for sure. If you're experienced and can deal with it, it could make a good investment.
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
That's the issue - I'm not experienced - this would be my first purchase of an income property. I liked the price point, and the outside structure is gorgeous -
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Mariama R.:
Thank you for your suggestions - I will take a look at this meetup. May I ask why you don't feel comfortable investing in this area? How do the people investing there and in similar neigborhoods make a lot of money - is it via rehabbing and flipping or rehabbing and renting out? I'm concerned that several murders took place on this street.
I personally only invest in high income areas such as Montgomery County and DC. But I do not need a ton of cash flow. I have enough cash flow from my properties to suit my needs and I have a high income job, so I do not invest with the the goal of creating a ton of cash flow. Many of the people who do invest in cheaper neighborhoods in Baltimore are investing specifically for cash flow, and many people call it the cash flow capital of the east coast. Some of these guys up there like @Matt Schelberg probably have as much or more cash flow on their sub $100k properties as I have on one of my $400-$450k properties, with considerably less invested than I have.
I basically have a rule that if I or my wife wouldnt live in the property, or if I wouldnt send my wife alone to the property to collect the rent at night, I wouldnt buy it.
But everyones goals with investing are different, everyones risk tolerance is different, and everyones ability to manage different types of tenants is different. There is money to be made in Baltimore, its just not for me.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thanks Russell - Yes, I intend to invest for cash flow. I did not know that Baltimore was known among many as the cashflow capital of the east coast. Thanks for that tidbit. Yes, I'm pretty sure I would not feel safe going there at night - although I'd have a property manager.
It would be nice to hear Matt Schelberg's take on this issue.
- Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes9yBaltimore, essentially....is a big toilet. You might be in the water, which is cleaner, or somewhere towards the edges which are dirtier....but ultimately, no matter where you are...you are in the toilet. In reality, this means (short of being in the high priced federal hill, roland park, hamden stuff.) youre dealing with the same type of people, the same baltimore city regulation/court stuff, same nonsense...over and over and over. How you deal with it separates winners and losers
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thank you for that comment Seth. How is the Arts District? Maryland I was told is better for real estate investing than DC in some senses in terms of low price entry point and other matters.
- Involved In Real Estate · Upper Marlboro, MD · Member since 2014 · 246 posts · 230 votes9y
@Mariama R. I live in the D.C. Area and have several investment properties in Baltimore City, including an apartment building down the street from where you are looking.
Two things, call it three to think about when investing I Baltimore, while living in (near) DC...
#1 Baltimore ain't D.C. If you expect it to act like DC you will get run over by a truck. I see lots of D.C. based investors run to Baltimore because it's "cheap", but then get slammed because prices don't go up, they over pay or run into the maze of regulations (and hidden fees) that are unique to Baltimore City. Go into Baltimore with a mentor who knows their way around, lots of land mines.
#2 Your biggest concern when doing rentals in Baltimore City has to be LEAD BASED PAINT. Any property built before 1978 probably has/had lead based paint. Well that's 90% of all the residential properties in the City of Baltimore. Lead paint remediation is expensive and must be done by contractors who are certified to do this type of work by the Department of the Environment for the state of Maryland (Ca-Ching, Ca-Ching). Even more important, the current head of the Curcuit Court for the City of Baltimore is as big believer in allowing tenants who are impacted by lead paint to sue their landlords for UNLIMITED liability. The specific area you are looking at has houses that are full of rad paint, and you will need to address this issue properly, before allowing tenants to move in.
#3 if you're in DC, and thinking of investing outside of D.C., you should be looking at Prince George's. P.G. and Baltimore City are the two hottest investor markets in the region, but PG rents are more than double what you'll get in Baltimore City. Right now, you can sill net over $1,000.00/month on a PG house, which is almost impossible to do in Baltimore unless you are doing some type of special needs program.
Hope this was helpful.
- Real Estate Investor · Catonsville, MD · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 8 votes9y
Hi. I have been investing in Baltimore full time for over 15 years. I live in Montgomery County. Baltimore city is about cashflow. Baltimore is different from each block each street. I belong to Mareia which is a Baltimore based Reiia. It has a landlord group and people there can tell you which blocks are good and which ones to watch out for. There are also landlord who own dozens of rental properties in the city who are good about sharing their insight. You should do your due diligence before you start investing. Never fall in love with a building. In Baltimore best time to drive neighborhood is after 4 pm preferably on Friday. Good luck.
- 9yTim JacobPro MemberReal Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
these are all good posts. A couple more things. Im a pm and will say this about it it. As has been said you are investing in a D neighborhood area. Much of Baltimore City is. The trendy parts that arent are costly. Here is my recomendation about things. If you go to D neighborhood you might as well go section 8. If you go to a C neighborhood you dont have to. I know that means the price will be more. I screen very hard and reccomend to minimize vacancy you upgrade to a C. There are many neighborhoods within the Baltimore area that are solid C neighborhoods. Many in the suburbs where the taxes arent sky high. If you go to C you can get a decent place with no reno for around 80-120k. In these C neighborhoods closer to a D than a B you will still have to screen hard and you might not get some one with a great credit score but if you have a good pm look into their rental history they should be able to find a good respectful tenant which will sign a multi year lease and not trash your place and the vacancy rate should be acceptable. The cash flow will still be there. That should be the goal.
The problem is when people say ill get a D grade home because its cheap thinking that your vacancy will be low by going section 8 than the people move in and trash the place and have to get evicted. You can still screen section 8 but in general it isnt as great because most have financial problems. You cant charge that much more and the minimal amount you get is offset by the problems. If the area is up and coming and will be the next Hampden then great i know a lot of people could have made a kot of miney if they bought in Shaw or Petworth down there in DC a few years ago because of appreciation but Baltimore doesnt have DC wealth and I dont know if i would rely on that.
This doesnt even factor in if you are doing a rehab and all the costs which are a wild card.
My recomendation is really take a good long look at what its really like to own a section 8 property from many landlords on here that do. Ask someone whose been in those neighborhoods for years and has balanced out the bads and goods how they are rrally doing. Understand when you go into a D neighborhood what your really getting into.
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thank you everyone for your posts including the one about the lead paint. This is really good to know. Most of the homes on the market in Baltimore that I'm seeing on the market were built around 1978. Baltimore is close to DC - you don't think DC will rub off on Baltimore in terms of wealth and neighborhoods coming around? Does John Hopkins serve as the main supply of tenants or not in Baltimore? I thought Baltimore would be good in terms of renting because of Hopkins and its doctors, medical students, nurses and other staff persons. I live in DC but it seems to be virtually impossible to enter the DC market at a low price point. Also, if tenants are unwilling to pay the rent, I hear that DC is unfavorable in terms of laws than is Baltimore - is this true? Thank you for the mention of the Reias - I will look into them because I need to investigate before plunging in. Thanks for the advice about PG County - I will look at. I recognize your name Sherman - I believe that you are a head of a REIA. What about homes in Federal Hill that were built in the early 1900s? Are there the same issues with lead paint?
- 9yTim JacobPro MemberReal Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
look into Baltimore county. Anywhere in Maryland has the same legal process. In Baltimore city you have to tell the tenants when they are getting tossed in an eviction. In pg, Baltimore county,and most other places you dont. In the county Ive heard the sherriff will expedite their part a little. I havent done an eviction in a while and have never been responsible for bringing a tenant in like that. A lot of that has to do with sticking with solid C neignborhoods. Hopkins is great as is Under Armour in the close by neighborhoods where they are. Thats why Hampden and Locust Point are doing better. Those areas are less affordable though.
Fed Hill you probably do have lead paint Though many homes might be lead free cause theyve been gutted in a reno. If you gut in a reno you should be fine and be lead free. Most parts of Fed Hill youll get very good tenants much more easily than other parts of the city. If you get a good price that would be a great neighborhood. Just wonder if you will get a good price down there. If you go lead free you can Alban home inspection. They have the lead free nuclear testing device. Otherwise if the place is old get dustwipes. You cant have any chipped paint.
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thank you - I meant to say that most of the housing stock I've seen in Baltimore was built before 1978. I saw one in Federal Hill built in the early 1900s -it's been renovated - and I'm curious as to if there is lead paint. Do you have an idea of where Hopkins doctors, nurses, medical students like to rent? Many of the neighborhoods around Hopkins look to be around D neighborhoods - the Druid Hill Avenue Property is only around 9 minutes away by car from Hopkins Medical according to the internet.
- 9yTim JacobPro MemberReal Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
A lot of med students and especially doctors or nurses that can afford it prefer to live south of Gough street towards the harbor. There might be some small pockets. Thats from Johns Hopkins. For the University of Maryland Hospital you can be near Fed Hill. Hampden is a nice area and has a lot of medical professionals. If you want to go into east Baltimore you can get some people that live in Graceland Park and your on the county line but a lot of people who live there and in Dundalk will work at Bayview Hospital in Baltimore City. They also recently opened an Amazon center there that has provided a lot of blue collar jobs. That area isnt that bad. Its not Locust Point crazy prices either. C neighborhoods with a lot of medical influence from Johns Hopkins Bayview.
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thank you for your response Tim. This is very helpful.
- Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 145 posts · 65 votes9y
Originally posted by @Mariama R.:
Thank you everyone for your posts including the one about the lead paint. This is really good to know. Most of the homes on the market in Baltimore that I'm seeing on the market were built around 1978. Baltimore is close to DC - you don't think DC will rub off on Baltimore in terms of wealth and neighborhoods coming around? Does John Hopkins serve as the main supply of tenants or not in Baltimore? I thought Baltimore would be good in terms of renting because of Hopkins and its doctors, medical students, nurses and other staff persons. I live in DC but it seems to be virtually impossible to enter the DC market at a low price point. Also, if tenants are unwilling to pay the rent, I hear that DC is unfavorable in terms of laws than is Baltimore - is this true? Thank you for the mention of the Reias - I will look into them because I need to investigate before plunging in. Thanks for the advice about PG County - I will look at. I recognize your name Sherman - I believe that you are a head of a REIA. What about homes in Federal Hill that were built in the early 1900s? Are there the same issues with lead paint?
Johns Hopkins is one of the main employers in the area, but most people, if they can afford it, live in the county. Younger folks might live in the city in enclaves like Charles Village, Canton, Fells Point, Federal Hill, Mount Vernon, etc, but if you have money and kids, you move to Baltimore, Howard or Harford County because they schools are far better. Some neighborhoods are SLOWY transitioning, like the Greenmount West/Station North Arts District, Washington Village (Pigtown) and Reservoir Hill. When you take into account the fact that property taxes are double what they are in the counties, and the need for private school for kids, you end up paying a huge premium to live in the city.
As far as lead paint in Federal Hill, it's definitely there, but it's either been cleaned up or encapsulated for the most part. The properties are in much better shape in that part of town.
There is no cash-flow to be had in A and B neighborhoods where the docs and nurses want to live unless you get a killer deal on a house or you score a multi-unit.Baltimore isn't really that close to DC. If you work in downtown DC, you're an hour train ride between Penn Station and Union Station, so you're looking at 90 minutes door to do if you live/work any distance from either. That's just unpleasant. People have been hoping for DC to rub off on Baltimore for years, and it's happening, but really, really slowly. DC and Baltimore have similar landlord/tenant laws to the extent that they both favor the tenant.
That said, there is money to be made providing quality housing to those who don't have a ton of money. These houses won't be in the best neighborhoods, and you might not always have the most stable tenants. You might be able to go all-in on a place and make it decent for $60k, but management is going to be a challenge, especially if you don't buy on the correct block.
Right now, I'm looking at Baltimore County, specifically, Dundalk. I'm still on the sidelines right now, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
- 9yTim JacobPro MemberReal Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
I think Andy Gross has a really good strategy. Something I forgot to mention that he did was people with families . If you want to rent places with less turnover families are great to market to. No one who can afford it which includes the medical professionals will want to raise a family in Baltimore City. The public schools are far better in the suburbs. Which means you are left with people who are younger or dont have grade school aged children. Thats a big demographic.
Maybe decades from now if the maglev train which Hogan approved a study for is operational combined with uber/ lyft which will at that time be autonomous it will be possible to commute from Baltimore to DC in 45 minutes for 15 dollars or less and real estate will appreciate like crazy up there but it will rake some major changes.
- Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 145 posts · 65 votes9y
@Tim Jacob I think MAGLEV would be a game changer, assuming it could be done at a reasonable price. The challenge would be for the city to get it's mass transit in order. MAGLEV would be pretty cool, but if it's inaccessible because Baltimore can't manage transit, then it would be all for nothing.
- Rental Property Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 278 posts · 156 votes9y
I agree with @Andy Gross. Even though Baltimore is linked to DC by the Baltimore Washington Parkway, I-95 and the MARC trains, DC is not going to rub off on Baltimore. Baltimore has it's own culture and whatnot and is not really considered part of the DMV (the DC metro area).
My boss at my main job lives in Baltimore City and works in DC. I've known other people who have lived in Baltimore and worked in DC or NoVa. Baltimore is a different city, and some people like that and want to live in an urban environment without paying DMV prices. So I know I'm not going to be able to charge DC rents and I looked in areas where I sighted the kind of people I want to rent to. When the rehab on my place is done, we'll see if they want to rent from me.
Lastly, @Mariama R. a historic district doesn't seem to mean much until the neighborhood is raised up on its own. LeDroit Park in DC is a historic district and I remember a time when it was teaming with drugs and a crazy amount of violent crime. Now, it's a great pricey neighborhood.
I walked through Druid Heights. It has great looking old buildings but I did not see the kind of demographics that would work for me. It is close to the places that would, but I'd have to research it further and ask myself how long I'm willing to sit on a place with stupid high taxes.
- Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes9y
@Mariama R. I think you have probably learned a lot through this thread.
A full rehab of a large building on Druid Hill Ave is not the best place to start. Yet Druid hill can be a decent place to make money. Each block west get worse. Each block east gets better. McCulloh st. is a little better than Druid Hill, Madison is better still. One more block and you are in Bolton hill which is one of the high end neighborhoods in Baltimore.
There are much better places to start in Baltimore. I think zips 21234, 21239, 21214 would be a safe bet for row houses. Drive down druid hill ave and then drive the areas I mention and you will see a clear difference.
Regarding lead paint, most houses built in the late 40s or later in Baltimore had little lead paint so it should not be too expensive to make lead free.
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Thanks, M Marie M. What places would you recommend to invest in in Baltimore as a beginner?
- Contractor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 18 votes9y
Hi @Mariama R.,
Glad you proposed this project on the forum. Lots of commentary, which generates lots of value for users on the site.
As another BP member told me, it is helpful when you post to include the person's @ name tag - this notifies their email so they know they have been ping-ed. Type "@" then "?" and all the people who have commented on a thread will appear as options to select.
I live in Baltimore and work as a contractor. We are doing a contracting job right now on Druid Park Avenue and also building investment properties with our own money in Station North Arts District.
The house on Druid Park Ave will warrant an ~$250K ARV. This is a pretty solid number for Central Baltimore (i.e. - Hampden, Remington, Clipper Mill, etc.). The reason for the high value is location. It is on one of the only strips of Druid Park Drive near Clipper Mill, which is a great area.
As many people have said on this thread, Baltimore is a very block to block town. Druid Park Avenue runs through a number of different neighborhoods, some with crime and some next to the best restaurants and consumer-friendly neighborhoods in the city.
As far as Station North, I would distinguish Druid Park and Station North as different parts of town. Druid Park runs West of I-83 and Station North is on the East side. Generally the closer you are to I-83, in my opinion, the better the neighborhoods will be. More investment and affluence has grown in neighborhoods surrounding I-83 - the main commuter highway between Baltimore County and Baltimore City.
If you would like to PM me about the areas you are looking into around Druid Park, I would be happy to let you know what I think.
- Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 1 vote9y
Hello @Sam Frank . Thank you for your advice. I will PM you the areas- yes, alot of great info here
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