IS this Holton-Wise stuff for real?
Axel MeierhoeferPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2017 · 679 posts · 550 votesIS this Holton-Wise stuff for real?
Most Popular Reply
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
8yNormally when there is a thread about my own company I try to stay out of it as to allow folks the freedom to speak their mind without me butting in to bother them &/or sway the narrative. However I need to pop in to clear a few things up here then I will quickly bow out of this thread after pointing out a few pertinent facts.
1. The question about Holton-Wise being "real" or not is relatively comical when you look at our offices standing as the number 1 seller of investment property in the greater Cleveland, Ohio area. But please, do not take my word for it. Check out the statistics right from the MLS.
2. The implication that we were scamming folks based upon the O.P. realizing that the house needed a septic tank removed. LOL I would sure hope you realized the house needed the septic tank removed considering the ENTIRE point of the ad was that the house was priced this way because it needed to be addressed. A major clue to this fact was the ad including a 7 min video that is entirely dedicated to me going over the septic tank situation.
The name of the video is How to Remove a Septic System like the one at this Cleveland Investment Property; 2133 Reyburn. The thumbnail of the video is below. It cannot be made more clear than this lol.
If anyone wants to see the video it is posted all over the marketplace. I will not post it here as it is an advertisement for that property which is, of course, prohibited on BP anywhere except the marketplace.
3. Last thing I wanted to touch on before I pop outta here & leave you folks to it is our F rating on the BBB. Our rating on that website is an absolute joke. If you look at it the sample size is tiny. There are 11 reviews & 7 of them are positive. Our positive reviews more than double our negative reviews.
The real reason we have an F is we do not pay the BBB like other businesses do. It's well known that your rating is swayed by paying the accreditation fee to the BBB. They are essentially running a racket. But again, no need to take my word for it. Simply watch the story 20/20 did on them.
On top of the fact that the BBB is running a shakedown operation this is property management business folks. We run a $50M+ portfolio. Take a look at our google page. Currently we have 93 reviews. Average score is 3.2. The entire thing is filled with tons of disgruntled tenants as well as happy investors. That's the property management business.
If you think people aren't leaving you bad reviews after you evict them or tell them no you are gonna be in for a wild ride when it comes to property management. The many bad reviews we have on that google page (& boy there are quite a few of them) are not necessarily from rational people. This business can be a battle. If you doubt what I am saying go ahead & hop on over to these tenant from hell threads below & tell me how you reason with those types of people. My staff is in the trenches everyday & I would defend everyone of those bad reviews.
TENANTS FROM HELL #2 Tubs & Showers from hell. PICS INCLUDED!
TENANTS FROM HELL #1 Deplorable living conditions. PICS INCLUDED!
Here are all the Holton-Wise Google Reviews. The good & the bad.
50 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Something just feels off about the way questions are being asked in this discussion. James Wise is obviously a hard working businessman and posting a question about if the properties are a scam is offensive to me. By all means do research on companies, but ask more objective questions with less slanderous innuendo. Just had to speak my peace.
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Pulaski:
I ended up in the Hilton Wise email list as well. Not my market so I Unsubscribed, but also not sure how I ended up on it to begin with!
To speak to Brian's point, I think we all end up on the email list from someone trolling BP for email addresses. Mine mysteriously started up shortly after joining BP. I didn't realize the two were related until I started seeing HW all over the forums. It made sense then.
To speak to the original OP's question, I don't think he was questioning the company (although through the thread, he is conveying his further research of the company like the BBB rating, which is a TRUE rating, BTW), but rather questioning whether the deals were legit. It does seem crazy to people in some parts of the country that there could be legit deals out there for under $10K. I used to be one of those people since there is NOTHING around me under $150K.
The answer is YES. Deals like this exist. Usually in OH, IL, MI, WV, AL and other surrounding states.
However, most, if not all the properties are either run down and in need of extensive rehab, or are in sketchy D/F areas. In the case of the last property link, the property was going to need a septic removal and be connected to sewer, which would be a very costly expense. So, even though the cost of entry is small, the overall expense would be more significant. If you watch the video, James explains this requirement and the process for going about doing this. I will say that his videos appear to be an ernest effort to disclose as much as possible to people interested in the properties he is selling.
I particularly like his map that grades Cleveland. This is a great resource to use when exploring options for purchasing Cleveland properties.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Brian Pulaski:
I ended up in the Hilton Wise email list as well. Not my market so I Unsubscribed, but also not sure how I ended up on it to begin with!
I think we all end up on the email list from someone trolling BP for email addresses. Mine mysteriously started up shortly after joining BP. I didn't realize the two were related until I started seeing HW all over the forums. It made sense then.
It seems that way. I didn't know who HW was until I saw them on BP forums. I hope my posts didn't come off that I was unhappy or annoyed at being on their email list, I wasn't. This post just resonated with me because I could relate to being emailed. I hit unsubscribe and have never received another one. However we REI's can find buyers or sellers (legally) is fine in my book!
- Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
James is a regular BP contributor as many already know. Not once have I seen anyone post any issues before about his operation and of course bad tenants will have a alternative reviews for the PMs. If getting a new REI sales email is the biggest issue found and after doing 100 mil in business pehaps one might factor that non event accordingly. Good luck!
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
If a property management company that manages in C or worse areas did not have bad reviews, Id assume they were not doing enough business to trust what I was reading. If they were all 5 star reviews that would be a HUGE red flag to me that something wasnt right.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Contractor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 740 votes8y
@Russell Brazil is completely right about the reviews. I'd be interested in the reviews of landlords, not the tenants. Any of us with tenants in C/D/F areas know that you're sometimes dealing with irrational people. (Hell, that's sometimes true in A&B areas, too.)
One note addressing the BBB issue....the BBB is a thoroughly fraudulent organization. They are not a consumer protection organization - they sell advertising. My remodeling company has one review on the BBB with an F rating. Every week, we get telemarketed by the BBB telling us we can get an A rating if we just sign up for one of their advertising packages. Screw those guys. We have 125 ratings on Angie's List with an A rating, and get 50% of my business from there. I won't even bother to respond to BBB ratings, and I hope they go out of business.
- Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2017 · 679 posts · 550 votes8y
@Spencer Gray I think creating a list is fine and using it to advance ones business is too. Not asking permission is not ok. There are actual rules about double opt-in and companies that don't follow them could be in trouble if anybody sues them. I am hoping the BP founders did not give permission to have the member emails raided without member permission.
I am sure just because it is know to be well received if someone gives people a gift to improve relationships, you wouldn't want anybody come into your house and drop stuff off without your permission to enter.
Could be I am too old to be ok with the idea of acting without permission
- Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2017 · 679 posts · 550 votes8y
Thanks for all the contributions. @Account Closed I admit I wasn't familiar with that price level either and was happy to learn that it exists.
The email thing bugs me but again, we all can react the way we deem appropriate.
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Axel Meierhoefer:
The email thing bugs me but again, we all can react the way we deem appropriate.
Agree with you there. I wonder if being a Moderator gives one access to member emails that are hidden to others.
- 8yJohn KosterPro MemberInvestor · Valley Village, CA · Member since 2012 · 147 posts · 142 votes
Holton Wise and the deals are quite real.
The 10K house is on a hill in between a C-/D area and a B area and it has a septic issue. It is not surprising that a hood adjacent home with septic issues is going that low. A quick perusal online will show homes without septic issues nearby going for 30-50K.
The apartment complex is on a busy street in an okay C neighborhood. 25K per unit on an advertised "value add" isn't crazy in that area.
I agree aggressive marketing can be annoying, but hitting "delete" and "unsubscribe" usually works for me when I receive something I'm not interested in.
Cheers
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
The email thing bugs me but again, we all can react the way we deem appropriate.
Agree with you there. I wonder if being a Moderator gives one access to member emails that are hidden to others.
It does not. Nearly all BP members however have their emails right on their profiles including yours and the OPS. A quick google search of the OPs email also shows it showing up on a half dozen other public sites including linked in.
BP does have privacy settings that one should use if they want their information to remain private. Click on your face on the top right, scroll down to settings, then click on privacy on the left, and choose to hide your email address.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - 8yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Thanks for chiming in, @Russell Brazil .
On BiggerPockets, non-colleagues cannot view your contact information unless you specifically mark "Make my contact information visible to everyone." This is not the default, you have to purposely choose to have your contact info visible.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes8y
@Al D. contrary to your comment, listing properties, especially multi family properties is my specialty.
I recall our email correspondence....
Email marketing is no mystery. My staff is data driven. We accumulate all data that comes into our portfolio of businesses. We have 100's of 1,000's of branded & unbranded squeeze links & data capture procedures all over the net. MLS, CoStar, LoopNet, Zillow, Realtor.com, Trulia, Hotpads, Cleveland.com, BP, FB, YouTube, Quora, IG, Snapchat, LinkedIn, Google, Bing, Yahoo & many many more. Ever notice that banner ads always show items you recently searched? Big data is out there folks & my brokerage is & always will be on the cutting edge of it. We got to number 1 by knowing how to properly market real estate online. If anyone feels that they received an unwelcomed or unsolicited email from my company by all means simply click unsubscribe, that's what it is there for. We have an unsubscribe link on every email that our marketing team sends out. Our direct mail software adheres to all laws & regulations. We have never & will never send an email out to a mass amount of people that doesn't include an unsubscribe link. To my knowledge our software doesn't even allow an email to go out to an email after that email address has been unsubscribed & I don't believe the same address can ever be put back on the list.*****
....Anyway, Al as I said I recall our email correspondence. Your reasoning behind why I wanted to sell your house for $100k is ridiculous. The actual reason behind why I wanted to sell it at that price is much simpler.
What we have is two people with a differing view on the value of your property. One person, me, sells more duplexes in Cuyahoga county then any other person on this planet. I have dedicated my life to selling investment property in Cleveland. I do it from the moment I wake up until the moment I go to bed. 7 days a week...Appraisers actually call me on a weekly basis for assistance in valuing their properties. Other agents from my brokerage & competing brokerages contact me for help in pricing their own listings. That is, the few listings that they manage to get before I get a chance to get in touch with the owners. 💪💸💯🔥
Then we have you, a guy who lives on the other side of the country, owns 1 property in Cleveland & presumably makes his living in an industry outside of real estate sales...... Wouldn't the simplest & most logical explanation be that I have given you the price that it's actually going to sell for & you are just wrong? Most sellers get emotionally attached & overvalue their home. This my friend, is what you have done.
- Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2017 · 303 posts · 327 votes8yJames Wise I reached out to you, because your email bombardment suggested muscle and power in the local market, just as you so eloquently depicted above. After getting the unsolicited offer of $120k, I first reached out to an agent I used previously in that county. That agent said that I could *list* the property for $130k-$137k - after running the comps, which took that agent days; some agents are busier than others. But I knew that I would get facts for my waiting. I was also aware of a similar duplex going for $160k last summer - but knew, from the other coast and not being a real estate pro, that that was an outlier. I reached out to you while I waited to get facts, based on other facts that I knew the source of. While I thought that your price was too low, I understood that it was aggressive. But I was not in a hurry to sell, as I subsequently explained. You said you could send the contract. I said no. We parted ways. I had no idea you thought so little of me after our short exchange until just now. Good thing I clicked on the “Dear John” button in your subsequent email just days later - I don’t think I could have handled rejection. The simplest, most logical explanation is definitely that you gave me the price that it would actually sell for. (In case you did not notice in my original comment, I did not doubt that.) The logic of your retort, however, misses the simple point that it could also sell for anything over the price that you wanted to sell it for, like by at least $20k over. That, my friend, is leaving money on the table; that is ridiculous. And I expect MY agent to know that, to have my best interest in mind. Knowing what is in my best interest may come from things like asking questions and listening, instead of bolstering about themselves. The only potential way to resolve the price point now is for me to list the property and see what it goes for. But I do not want to do that, and someone who may have offered a particular price for it in December may have gone and spent the money on another property, which may be in another state, as did I this past summer, after visiting your area, yet again. There is no scientific way to resolve this dispute - which was not a dispute until you just disrespected me - today, as the variables are too numerous. And all that mambo jumbo you just said about the big data - which still did not answer how you got (specifically) my email address - would still be useless, because you don’t/can’t have all the necessary data for the input. You could, at least, have used the basic public search engine to see that, just in that county, I own two parcels under my actual name. But why bother when you already know everything? And, since you actually have my full name, you could have checked to see what it was I may do for a living, like perhaps I may like to argue for breakfast, get to the bottom of problems, and - above all else - know when someone may be deflecting. I get emotionally attached to my intelligence getting challenged. This, my friend, is what you just did. The challenge I have now is to figure out what I said about you in my original comment that was deserving of that. But perhaps I should just leave it to some moderator, like yourself, to figure out.
- 8yJosh C.Pro MemberProperty Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesI think it comes down to mentality. Most people on this website are too busy hustling to get so worked up about being put on an email list. The post earlier about possibility being in trouble if they got sued made me chuckle. How long does it take to hit unsubscribe? 15 seconds? What sort of damages might you expect from that judgement I wonder? Coming up with value is always a negotiation. A big brokerage firm will probably list it very close to selling price price and maybe a little under. A smaller firm might list it higher and it will sit longer and probably sell for near the same amount. That’s what great about the MLS. Everyone sees it. It couldn’t be more free market. I’ve personally bought off the MLS for 25% over listing price. And 50% of listing price. The price isn’t totally irrelevant, but it certainly doesn’t dictate what your house sells for. The market does. You can only dictate how long that process takes. I don’t know their outfit, but if you have been on BP for a while you know people aren’t shy to bash a company and it’s tough to find a lot of negative comments about service relative to their size. That says something anyway.
- Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 880 votes8y
What I’ve learned in this thread is that if someone openly displayed their email address in their signature line it means I’m perfectly able to add it to my email list and no one sees anything wrong with that. Looks like my assistant is going to be extra busy this week.
Hint* you still need permission
- Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
I also get their emails... I don't remember signing up but who knows. I get a ton of spam, it can sit in it's folder and do it's thing no worse then the junk mail I get at my actual house.
It's often hard for CA folks to imagine houses so cheap exist when everything around us is so expensive, but it does. This doesn't mean it's a scam or fake, but it also doesn't mean it's the best value to a out of state investor either. Price alone shouldn't be how one evaluates a real estate deal, you need to figure out it's overall value to YOU. This can be done w/ the help of others, but internally you have to know what is right for you and acceptable risk...
- Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2017 · 679 posts · 550 votes8y
Thanks for the votes, guys
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes8y
If it's one thing I have learned over 14 years in the business for commercial real estate talking to thousands of investors it's that everyone has an opinion and filter on how they reason things.
Whether a broker is transacting with their company, a seller is selling a property, a buyer is buying a property there can be differences of opinion.
I come across unrealistic buyers and sellers everyday of the week.
Their motivation is low and they are looking for that 1 in 10,000 property to buy or that 1 in 10,000 buyer who HAS TO buy something at the last second because of poor planning. It's an art form to get a price the seller who is motivated can live with and a buyer is happy with at the same time. You have to make sure both the buyer and the seller have a high motivation level to doing something and their communication levels and timeliness with tasks is high.
People should just move on and work to do business with those who fit their business model. I used to try and defend my business model many years ago. These days I just say we are not a fit and wish them well. I have a system for working with buyers and if they do not complete the steps we do not move forward. I would rather do 15 transactions a year my way then 22 but 7 of them are nightmares because the buyers do not listen, think they know everything, and have control issues even though they are asking you for advice! LOL
No business is ever going to be perfect. If a seller wants a really high price a broker can just say they feel it is overpriced at that level so they will pass on the business. No hard feelings either way.
As for BP I respond to people who contact me on the site. I do not go out and chase people down for business.
Some buyers and sellers can be a real PITA to deal with. For a brokerage it is what I call the HEADACHE FACTOR. How much of a PITA will they be? What is the anticipated return? How much time will it take to get there?
I am talking in general and not specific forums or postings.
- Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Not accusing anyone of anything, FYI ONLY:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/rules
L - No Email Harvesting
Harvesting email addresses from our site is strictly prohibited. Do not harvest email addresses from BiggerPockets users.
- Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:Not accusing anyone of anything, FYI ONLY:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/rules
L - No Email Harvesting
Harvesting email addresses from our site is strictly prohibited. Do not harvest email addresses from BiggerPockets users.
I am pretty sure they harvested mine. I usually use a different email address for all my real estate stuff than what I used to register on BP, and I started getting spam from HW on the email account I use here for BP. I also would never intentionally request any sort of contact from any turnkey operators, and have no interest in investing in Cleveland.
Also, I am 99.999999% sure I immediately checked the "hide my email address" as soon as I created this profile. I assumed that Pro users could see it anyway after getting the HW spam. I got my first HW spam very shortly after someone from HW replied to one of the threads I had also commented on..
No big deal but a little shady perhaps, if true
- Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2017 · 679 posts · 550 votes8y
@Account Closed
I totally agree with you guys.
Not sure if it makes a difference but I wills end a message to Wendy and see what she says.
Some people say its not a big deal to unsubscribe. I agree with that but at the same time I like to be in a community of trust. If people want to get in touch with me they can send a colleague request or send their marketing message to the platform email.
I let you know what I get back from BP
- Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2017 · 679 posts · 550 votes8y
I messaged with Mindy and she said harvesting of emails from members is against the rules.
She said that having a great reputation is very important and that alone is reason enough to keep an eye on some undesirable practices
- Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Not accusing anyone of anything, FYI ONLY:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/rules
L - No Email Harvesting
Harvesting email addresses from our site is strictly prohibited. Do not harvest email addresses from BiggerPockets users.
"Happy" to report that I, too, have been spammed now by Holton-Wise.
This is unreal! I have never even been to Cleveland (I'm sure it's a great place) or even investing in the same niche.
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.