Using seller financing to buy a deal you otherwise wouldn't

Using seller financing to buy a deal you otherwise wouldn't

Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes

What's up BP!

So a backstory that will tie into this post. Our overarching REI goal is to acquire 7-10 properties in total and pay them all off in 10-15 years using the rental debt snowball method (with plentiful contributions from our W-2 jobs). We are currently in the "aggressive acquisition" stage. I'm active duty Air Force with about 10 years to go until retirement, which is driving that timeline/goal. We have acquired 3 properties so far, all single family homes. Our last deal now has us in recovery/capital rebuilding mode. It will take another year or so until we're ready to buy again using traditional financing just with the savings from our W-2 jobs.

However, our CPA has a client looking to slowly offload his entire portfolio in our area, starting with two in 2019: a duplex and a SFR. The seller offered the CPA his SFR (not as an investment but for him to actually live in), and with the seller's permission, the CPA referred us to him for a first look at the duplex. He's an older gentlemen in his late 70s with no real rush to sell, but we learned his motivation is just that his wife wants him to stop spending time "landlording" with his age. We also learned he doesn't want to work with a realtor and deal with putting it on the market and everything that comes along with that. Basically, it seems like he views it as an inconvenience and doesn't want to put in the effort to try to sell his portfolio.

The kicker here is he's willing to do seller financing, 30 year amortized with options to pay it off at 5 years and 10 years, since around then there should be enough equity to refinance (his words). He didn't say interest rate specifically but he did say just above normal market rate, so my guess is maybe 6-7%. He also said he requires "some" down but less than banks...it sounds like he's not really particular. My guess is it depends on the deal/buyer because he mentioned one time he did full 20% down. For our numbers sake, we are going to negotiate/plan for 5% down so he at least feels we have some skin in the game.

Now, the property. 2 bed/1 bath each side duplex built in 1957, he didn't say asking price but said (paraphrasing) "Zestimate says about $100k but you look at the market and see what you think"...his mentality has seemed pretty carefree about it all. It currently rents for $515 and $450 (he said he lowered the rent on one because of some tenant sob story). Both long-term renters...one has been there 10 years and the other 5 years. Current market rents seem to be between $575-650 depending on if the utilities are included or not. He's a genuine guy and sounds like he just doesn't care that much about maximizing his profits (properties are paid off), and the rents probably haven't been changed since they moved in, except one-side rent has even been lowered *eye roll*. We're assuming they're on month to month leases and will likely not renew if we purchase the property unless they pass our screening standards and are willing to pay market rent.

The numbers: with an $80k purchase price, 5% down, $550 rents for each side (trying to be conservative), 6.5% interest, property taxes $2000 per year, insurance $650 per year, then including the normal percentages for vacancy/maintenance/cap-ex/PM, and the water bill of approx. $80 per month (his info), cash flow per month is $42. Not even close to what we would usually shoot for in an investment.

However, using seller financing would allow us to purchase the property when we otherwise wouldn't be able to, and looking at our overall goals, if we wait to buy one property per year from saving our W-2 income we wouldn't realistically be able to "finish" the acquisition stage and start paying them down for maybe 7-8 years, plus another 10-15 years to actually pay them all off. Basically the math just doesn't work for our goals at the current acquisition rate.

Sorry for such a long post I just wanted to get all the details out there...but the question for BP is, would you purchase a property that fits your goals even if it doesn't do much for cash flow until it's paid off? What are your thoughts?

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Property Manager · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y

Personally I would not, because my goals revolve around short term cash flow.  I wouldn't get into a deal that basically doesn't cash flow at all with the hopes that it will in 10 years when the note is paid off.

Good luck!

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  • Catskill, NY · Member since 2018 · 636 posts · 668 votes
    7y

    I would probably go for it. I have two rentals that were seller financed for $0 down, no interest for 10 and 12 years. I basically break even on them, but I look at it as I "saved" $57,000 in down payment money. In your case, you could spend $4,000 instead of $20,000 for the down payment, "saving" you $16,000 to use towards another property. Also, if all goes well, you will probably be the first person the seller goes to when he sells the rest of his portfolio.

  • Property Manager · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Personally I would not, because my goals revolve around short term cash flow.  I wouldn't get into a deal that basically doesn't cash flow at all with the hopes that it will in 10 years when the note is paid off.

    Good luck!

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chris Szepessy:

    I would probably go for it. I have two rentals that were seller financed for $0 down, no interest for 10 and 12 years. I basically break even on them, but I look at it as I "saved" $57,000 in down payment money. In your case, you could spend $4,000 instead of $20,000 for the down payment, "saving" you $16,000 to use towards another property. Also, if all goes well, you will probably be the first person the seller goes to when he sells the rest of his portfolio.

    Thanks for the advice, good point on being able to roll the money "saved' into other deals then as well. I'm just trying to think long term, and we're swaying towards doing it and keeping our long term goal in sight. It wouldn't set us back much in future acquisitions since so little down would be required, and as long as we can account for all expenses and still break even or be a little green every month I think it still furthers our goal.

    Being the first person he calls up would certainly be a nice bonus for future properties as well.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes
    7y

    Anyone else want to chime in? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Cory O'Dell:

    What's up BP!

    So a backstory that will tie into this post. Our overarching REI goal is to acquire 7-10 properties in total and pay them all off in 10-15 years using the rental debt snowball method (with plentiful contributions from our W-2 jobs). We are currently in the "aggressive acquisition" stage. I'm active duty Air Force with about 10 years to go until retirement, which is driving that timeline/goal. We have acquired 3 properties so far, all single family homes. Our last deal now has us in recovery/capital rebuilding mode. It will take another year or so until we're ready to buy again using traditional financing just with the savings from our W-2 jobs.

    However, our CPA has a client looking to slowly offload his entire portfolio in our area, starting with two in 2019: a duplex and a SFR. The seller offered the CPA his SFR (not as an investment but for him to actually live in), and with the seller's permission, the CPA referred us to him for a first look at the duplex. He's an older gentlemen in his late 70s with no real rush to sell, but we learned his motivation is just that his wife wants him to stop spending time "landlording" with his age. We also learned he doesn't want to work with a realtor and deal with putting it on the market and everything that comes along with that. Basically, it seems like he views it as an inconvenience and doesn't want to put in the effort to try to sell his portfolio.

    The kicker here is he's willing to do seller financing, 30 year amortized with options to pay it off at 5 years and 10 years, since around then there should be enough equity to refinance (his words). He didn't say interest rate specifically but he did say just above normal market rate, so my guess is maybe 6-7%. He also said he requires "some" down but less than banks...it sounds like he's not really particular. My guess is it depends on the deal/buyer because he mentioned one time he did full 20% down. For our numbers sake, we are going to negotiate/plan for 5% down so he at least feels we have some skin in the game.

    Now, the property. 2 bed/1 bath each side duplex built in 1957, he didn't say asking price but said (paraphrasing) "Zestimate says about $100k but you look at the market and see what you think"...his mentality has seemed pretty carefree about it all. It currently rents for $515 and $450 (he said he lowered the rent on one because of some tenant sob story). Both long-term renters...one has been there 10 years and the other 5 years. Current market rents seem to be between $575-650 depending on if the utilities are included or not. He's a genuine guy and sounds like he just doesn't care that much about maximizing his profits (properties are paid off), and the rents probably haven't been changed since they moved in, except one-side rent has even been lowered *eye roll*. We're assuming they're on month to month leases and will likely not renew if we purchase the property unless they pass our screening standards and are willing to pay market rent.

    The numbers: with an $80k purchase price, 5% down, $550 rents for each side (trying to be conservative), 6.5% interest, property taxes $2000 per year, insurance $650 per year, then including the normal percentages for vacancy/maintenance/cap-ex/PM, and the water bill of approx. $80 per month (his info), cash flow per month is $42. Not even close to what we would usually shoot for in an investment.

    However, using seller financing would allow us to purchase the property when we otherwise wouldn't be able to, and looking at our overall goals, if we wait to buy one property per year from saving our W-2 income we wouldn't realistically be able to "finish" the acquisition stage and start paying them down for maybe 7-8 years, plus another 10-15 years to actually pay them all off. Basically the math just doesn't work for our goals at the current acquisition rate.

    Any of my fellow Dayton folks have an opinion? The property is located in Vandalia :)

  • Realtor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2017 · 49 posts · 55 votes
    7y

    I'm new to RE, but as a long term buy and hold I would do this deal if it allows you to reach your goal quicker than you would have originally been able to. You'd be putting much less than a normal down payment like Chris said, so you'd be able to use that for another acquisition. It sounds like this would be beneficial to your portfolio in the long term, assuming you're comfortable with such a small cash flow on it. Just my 2 cents.

  • Rental Property Investor · Central, FL · Member since 2016 · 950 posts · 821 votes
    7y

    I would keep moving forward with the option. Is the 48 a month after accounting for capex and repair and vacancy?  Or just the mortgage insurance and taxes?

    But you need to see it for what it is. Deferred maintenance will be everywhere there.  The property should be priced accordingly. 

    Also if you can and market allows it once you buy the duplex push utilities off to the tenant. Money saved right there. 

  • Ozzy SmithPro Member
    Specialist · Dayton, OH · Member since 2014 · 352 posts · 265 votes
    7y

    @Cory O'Dell my answer is stick to your numbers. If everything works out the way you show, then you are getting about 10% cash on cash ROI. I don't get excited over 10% but especially when that's only $42. That being said however the upside would be you at the top of the list for his other properties but again he probably is doing the math just like you. If you are willing to take a 10% ROI on this one he will probably figure you will take 10% on all of them and price each house according to that logic.

    Only you know if it's worth it or not and if things go even a little sideways $42/m doesn't leave much room for oops.  Personally I don't like it here's why.

    Typical Duplex in C neighborhood in Dayton (where I invest) I can get all day for about $70K.

    3/1 each side easily rents at $650 = $1300/m

    traditional mortgage at 6.5% 30 year fixed payment is about $350/m

    20% down payment = $14K with closing costs of about $1K = $15K out of pocket

    Factoring all things like cap x, maintenance, vacancy, etc leaves about $715/m (1300x.55 rough numbers)

    $715 - mortgage payment ( $350 ) = $365/m cash flow

    $365 x 12 months = $4380 divided by $15,000 = 29% TRUE ROI!!!!

    The only catch to this is you need 15K out of pocket not 4K.  I don't know if you have this now but if not I'd look for this type of deal and a partner before what you suggested...just my $.02

  • Ozzy SmithPro Member
    Specialist · Dayton, OH · Member since 2014 · 352 posts · 265 votes
    7y

    FYI partnering could look like borrowing the $15K at 10% for 10 years and your monthly payment on that is only $275/m. This would leave you $90/m cash flow with 0$ out of pocket and your ROI is INFINITE!!!

    just saying the calculator doesn't lie

  • Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 76 votes
    7y

    @Cory O'Dell the numbers don’t make much sense to me regardless of financing structure. You also didn’t mention the conditions of the structure or whether there are deferred maintenance issues non addressed by a semi-engaged landlord. What’s the rest of his portfolio look like?

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ozzy Smith:

    @Cory O'Dell my answer is stick to your numbers. If everything works out the way you show, then you are getting about 10% cash on cash ROI. I don't get excited over 10% but especially when that's only $42. That being said however the upside would be you at the top of the list for his other properties but again he probably is doing the math just like you. If you are willing to take a 10% ROI on this one he will probably figure you will take 10% on all of them and price each house according to that logic.

    Only you know if it's worth it or not and if things go even a little sideways $42/m doesn't leave much room for oops.  Personally I don't like it here's why.

    Typical Duplex in C neighborhood in Dayton (where I invest) I can get all day for about $70K.

    3/1 each side easily rents at $650 = $1300/m

    traditional mortgage at 6.5% 30 year fixed payment is about $350/m

    20% down payment = $14K with closing costs of about $1K = $15K out of pocket

    Factoring all things like cap x, maintenance, vacancy, etc leaves about $715/m (1300x.55 rough numbers)

    $715 - mortgage payment ( $350 ) = $365/m cash flow

    $365 x 12 months = $4380 divided by $15,000 = 29% TRUE ROI!!!!

    The only catch to this is you need 15K out of pocket not 4K.  I don't know if you have this now but if not I'd look for this type of deal and a partner before what you suggested...just my $.02

    $70k purchase price and $1300 a month in rent is a pretty good deal I’d say. Also the $42 accounted for cap-ex and maintenance and everything else, yes. That’s what was left over. Nonetheless $70k/$1300 isn’t what I’m looking at with this one unfortunately. I had my realtor give me an estimate of what he thinks it’s worth (not much for comps nearby for us to get a good idea) and he said ballpark $85k market value. So maybe we just need to come in lower for this one to make the numbers work. Also only doing 5% hurts the cash flow too compared to normal financing, if it were a normal 20-25% down it would certainly look better on paper. Our biggest thought is just that it works well for our long term goals, just not with our monthly cash flow goals. But again, maybe in that case we just need to get it cheaper for the property to make sense. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Schiller:

    @Cory O'Dell the numbers don’t make much sense to me regardless of financing structure. You also didn’t mention the conditions of the structure or whether there are deferred maintenance issues non addressed by a semi-engaged landlord. What’s the rest of his portfolio look like?

    Truthfully I don’t know. He’s on vacation right now and we haven’t been able to get ahold of him to do a walkthrough of the property. With long term tenants though I imagine it could use some love in there. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 76 votes
    7y

    @Cory O'Dell I’ve been helping out a friend with a problematic rehab after a long term tenant abandoned the place. Coolest thing out of it was finding an awesome old road bike when clearing out the Jumanji backyard. Neon paint and a tune up and it will be alongside my chrome plated standard!

    But seriously the only reason I’d consider this deal is if I had a right of first refusal on all the other properties with a firm understanding of their condition. If that were the case, I might view Deal #1 as a loss-leader.

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    Nope . Not for rents that low . I’d pay 50 or 60. maybe but no where near 100k . It’s gotta stand on its own two feet . Don’t lose your goals over such a deal

  • Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 76 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Dennis M.:

    Nope . Not for rents that low . I’d pay 50 or 60. maybe but no where near 100k . It’s gotta stand on its own two feet . Don’t lose your goals over such a deal

     100%.  But it could be interesting if you structured a scaled and timely transaction; maybe.  Just thinking out loud on this one.   

  • Rental Property Investor · North Vernon, IN · Member since 2018 · 136 posts · 192 votes
    7y

    I would buy with those numbers.

    Your goal should be to raise rents to $600-625 immediately. Based on his attitude I would assume there is some deferred maintenance that will probably need done but he might be willing to get them rent ready before your acquisition. You might also be able to sub meter the water and get rid of that bill.

    Your cash flow will likely get better in 5 years when you refinance at a lower rate. This is a cheap acquisition that be great for your goals and help you scale up more quickly.

    Most importantly you will be creating a business relationship with someone that can seller finance an entire portfolio to you and help you reach your goals without the bank shi**ing on you because of DTI, or down payment, or liquid capital reasons.

    If you dont plan to buy send me his contact info lol

  • Investor · Fairborn, OH · Member since 2012 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    7y

    Real estate investing is about numbers, not emotions. Wanting a deal is not a reason to buy it. Because it may fit your long term goals doesn't mean it does.  @Ozzy Smith mentioned 3/1 duplex in Dayton renting for $650 and that seems about right. The rents on the 2/1 on each side are really not that far off. In Vandalia maybe they could go to $600. When you are looking at 2 bedroom doubles/duplexes/triplex/quads you have another competitor to consider, apartments. My single family 3/1 does not compete in the market with a 3/1 apartment. It is a different renter mindset. That is generally not true of 2/1 units. 

    That being said, make the offer that works for you. Run the numbers to make sure you aren't getting in over your head due to being enthusiastic. If the seller wants 100k and the numbers that make sense are 80k, it's not the right deal. If the seller wants 85k and the numbers say 80k, there may be 5k in value for long term owner financing. But that needs to be its own calculation and consideration.

    I purchased a single family rental for about 20% more than market due to owner financing. But the unit was a cash cow and the cash flow justified to me to overpay that much. I look for those extenuating circumstances to do anything that is out of my formula. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2015 · 79 posts · 85 votes
    7y

    @Cory O'Dell, I think I would look at the properties, but like @Steve Stackman said, stick to the numbers. Remember, we have had a good economy for the past few years and it is probable that there could be a downturn in the next few years. You don't want to buy at the top and get stuck. My wife bought a house in 2004, which we are now renting, and the value today is still not what she paid for it. If he is not advertising this to anyone then you have some advantage of time on your side. You don't have to move quickly. I would play it a little cool, not overly excited. Quote his numbers back to him in aggregate and the cash flow, ROI. Tell him that this is probably the top of the market and if prices come down 15% you'd loose your shirt. Start at about 20% lower than what he's asking. And I'm not sure these numbers would work. I don't know if there are repairs needed. How old are the furnaces, roofs, etc. I'm going to have to dump about 20K in one of my properties this year to do windows, furnace and A/C (still has Freon), a new roof and carpet. Don't get caught with a lemon.

    Mark

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 142 posts · 74 votes
    7y

    Good advice everyone, next step is actually walking the property. I think we have time on our side with this one so we'll check it out, get a GC to walkthrough it with us as well and give us a bid for bringing it up to par. I'm sure with tenants who have been there as long as they have it will need it. Then use that bid plus the calculations to see what price works for us and what doesn't. If he doesn't want to be realistic with price we can move on.

    From our initial phone call with him it sounded like price wasn't his primary motivator and him saying 100k was just a lazy way of ballparking what he thought he could get for it (much easier to just say the current Zestimate amount than do any legwork). I think if we present the calculations and the facts he'd be willing to come back to reality on what he thinks it's worth, especially with such low-paying tenants right now.

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