Low Appraisal for a Turnkey Property

Low Appraisal for a Turnkey Property

Rockville, MD · Member since 2019 · 19 posts · 13 votes

As a new real estate investor, I decided to ease my way into SFR ownership through turnkey companies. After vetting companies, I settled on two in markets I decided to invest in (1) Memphis Invest, and (2) Memphis Investment Properties. Yes, I confused the two at the start. However, as I selected properties that I wanted to make offers on with each, I learned that the two were very different in at least one important way – at least for me.

The PSA I was sent from Memphis Investment Properties (MIP) had an appraisal contingency that gave me several options if the property didn't appraise for at least as much as the purchase price, including allowing me to cancel the contract. As it turned out, the property appraised above the purchase price and I closed on my first rental property.

However, the PSA I got from Memphis Invest had no appraisal contingency. When I brought this to the attention of my Memphis Invest Portfolio Advisor, she explained that I would have to go through with the purchase even if the appraisal came in lower than the purchase price. She said that appraisals occasionally came in low and that I should be prepared to bring additional funds to closing in case it happened to me. Because Memphis Invest wouldn't negotiate on this point, I didn't commit to buy the property. 

As a newbie, I'm wondering which of these approaches to low appraisals in purchasing SFRs (MIP or Memphis Invest) is more common among turnkey companies. Also, are the any circumstances in which an investor should be prepared to make up the difference out of pocket for the gap between the appraisal and the purchase price? Although this doesn't seem prudent to me, I'm open to learning about circumstances beyond my limited knowledge about real estate investing in which this might make sense.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y

@Chris Clothier  well Clayton Morris comes to mind of the worse of the worse I have witnessed.

those that give inferior product usually don't last to long.. so longevity in the market place is a key indicator.

right now I see the TK  industry if we can call it that somewhat stressed.. to do full renovations like your company does you simply have to move up in asset class and price points.. you cannot do a full rehab on a 75k exit property MOST of the time.

so something has to give.. 

The wholesaler community has not helped this at all.. with everyone and their brother jumping in.. then wanting to make 10 to 20k or more on a wholesale flip this drives up prices as well and when that happens renovation budgets get paired back. 

The other thing I see happening frankly is the investors themselves they all have this saying  ( My Criteria ) and basically they read on BP or other places about your failing if you don't get a 10 or 12% return or more etc etc.. we see this on BP as well Hey why are you buying there when you can get double digits here.. .. And again with those ( especially turn key ) as they are new they just don't know the risk they are taking for those returns..  I know many companies realized this long ago and moved up and out of certain asset class's as it just not sustainable for the investor or the TK company. 

I mean really what's the difference in a 150 cash flow and a 200..  its a whopping 600 a year.. but to those that are focused on % returns they just look at that with no context to the risk they are taking.. 

and what kills landlords   ???    Turn over  Cap ex  and tenants that are under the median income of an area.

But median income or median price point houses in most MSAs are not the highest returns out of the gate but have the stability and the ability to raise rent and you can do a much nicer job on the reno to cut down on major expenses.

so bottom line we are talking about 30 to 60 year old homes generally speaking.. and most of the componants are beyond useful life.. so to get a home that is going to treat you well over the next decade you need.

1. new roof  6 to 10k

2. New Hvac  4500 to  6k

3. upgraded panel and electrical and all wall sockets etc  3k or so.

4. A real paint job and calking  3 to 5k 

5.  And this is a big one new energy effiecient windows..  5k and up.

6. new doors and trim packages 3k or so.

7. new cabinets and appliances 3 to 4k

8. new water heater and vented properly  1k

9. and this is a big one  NEW Sewer line to the street if its not PVC already.. 2 to 5k  this one catch's many flat footed.

10. Flat work replaced or repaired..

11. little bit of landscaping

12. new light fixtures.

13. tenant proof flooring.. 

And so to buy a rental that your going to have a solid 10 year run on.. there is no way your doing 10 to 15k renos  So U simply get what you pay for.. 

And of course I stole this one from you.. there is a vast difference in a 1200 to 1500 dollar renter than a 600 dollar renter VAST.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Simon Asraf:
    Originally posted by @Ron James:

    @Simon Asraf I would appreciate an intro to MartelTurnkey's owner. Thanks.

     Hi Ron. Reach out to @Antoine Martel. He is my main point of contact at MartelTurnkey, and can definitely help you in your search for turnkey rentals in Memphis.

    Antoine - Ron is looking for turnkey rentals in Memphis, and I highly recommended your company to him. One of the turnkey provider companies he is currently using does not have an appraisal contingency which is why I think Ron would definitely benefit from your services.

    Let me know if either of you have any questions!

     Thank you so much @Simon Asraf.

    Ron I would love to find a time to chat with you. Shoot me a message.

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Tony Kim:

    Do you have a solid TK provider in Toledo? I'd be interested in learning more about the market. I'm working with turnkeys in Baltimore, Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Dayton, Indy, and KC. Just about all those will have higher cash flow than Atlanta at least, probably Memphis too. If it's similar to Memphis, there are still market fundamentals that go into them that I like better than Memphis.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    7y

    Hi @Tony Kim -- Keep in mind that the city is a Macro look at a market. It's important and a first step but like my sixth (6th) rule of , you must consider the area and neighborhood just as much, if not more.  The neighborhood will have a larger impact on your cash-flow than the overall market.

    This is why we consider every layer. They all play a role. Therefore, don't invest "blindly" by market suggestions alone.

    Continued success!

  • Chandler, AZ · Member since 2017 · 174 posts · 269 votes
    7y

    I just had a TK provider I've worked with before inform me that they are no longer offering an out to buyers if the property doesn't appraise.  Is this the start of a new trend?

  • Member since 2019 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    #1 paid $23,100, rehab $14k. Rents $1200/month, market value $105k

    #2 paid $40,000, rehab $15k. Rents $1100/month, market value $95k

    $3 paid $60,000, rehab $10k. Rents $1250/month, market value $125k

    Wow @Matt M., your rehabs are paying for themselves 3.7 to 6.5 times over in terms of added equity (not to mention increased rents)? What kinds of changes are you making that can yield that kind of increase? Even though it sounds like your costs don't include your own labor (and no contractor markup) it still seems an outstanding return. As a newbie I don't know what's normal and have really just focused on researching turnkey as I wouldn't have much time to dedicate to investing.

  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Nicole Feemster

    Yes I'm doing quite well :) For me, these are investments that I want to make money for me. Buying at market price, or turnkey at market price just doesn't make sense to me. But I do have an advantage of being able to do 95% of the work myself so I just sit back and wait until I find a true deal. I probably even make my rentals nicer than they need to be, but I try and make them nicer in hopes of getting better tenants that would appreciate it. I also don't like doing "half-a$$" work. I've gotten really lucky finding these deals, I'm not afraid of 100 year old houses and nasty smelling carpet. I don't agree when people jump in just to jump in to REI. I also don't agree with $100/door cash flow. It's just not enough for me. I've done turnovers for clients and handed them $5000+ bills at the end. When that happens they've lost years of cash flow. Good luck to you, and look for good deals!

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ali Boone:
    Originally posted by @Tony Kim:

    Do you have a solid TK provider in Toledo? I'd be interested in learning more about the market. I'm working with turnkeys in Baltimore, Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Dayton, Indy, and KC. Just about all those will have higher cash flow than Atlanta at least, probably Memphis too. If it's similar to Memphis, there are still market fundamentals that go into them that I like better than Memphis.

    Ali, I'll give you some credit for that last sentence and because you earned my respect when I first found your blog and started reading it.  But the rest of this response is troubling when it comes from someone who gives advice.  First, I used to give you huge props because you only talked about specific companies that you had invested with.  If you're buying in all of the cities listed above and have personally worked with the companies to buy houses, then my hat is off to you.  I hope that is the case cause I'd hate to see you simply promoting companies for paydays.  You're personally journey was what I'd always ranked as your superpower over other promoters.

    As for the cash flow comments.  Cities do not cash flow.  Cities cannot produce cash flow.  Calculating a cash flow requires a mathematical equation and it goes up and down based on the inputs.  So it is easily manipulated.  With that being the case, any investment deal can produce a cash flow.  It simply requires different inputs.  To say that one city is a better cash flow city than another, in my opinion is really bad advice and too simple.  It almost panders to the lack of understanding by investors.  I can totally get behind a comment that you personally like some fundamentals of one city over another such as demographics, cost of housing, percentage of housing owner occupied, etc., but simply saying that a city is better for cash flow than another is inaccurate. There are plenty of investors right here on BP whose properties produce a monthly cash flow in every city in the U.S. including the often dumped on state of California.  Investors in L.A, San Diego, the Inland Empire, Central Valley - up and down the state are making a monthly cash flow on investment properties and not one of those areas will every make an 'experts' list of markets to invest for cash flow.   

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @George Pauley:

    I just had a TK provider I've worked with before inform me that they are no longer offering an out to buyers if the property doesn't appraise.  Is this the start of a new trend?

    I wouldn't call it a new trend.  It has been happening for a long time and often disguised as all-cash policies.  I think you are going to see more and more companies using desperate measures, for the lack of a better phrase, to insure that they get some form of income and are able to turn their money.  The cost of everything is going up from the cost of housing, labor, to materials, borrowing and holding and there are fewer and fewer houses available, so I would expect to see some companies start to wilt a bit and create fringe policies.  Several companies I know have morphed their businesses into other silos such as lending.  But I would not call it a trend.  I wouldn't expect to see a policy like that from the handful of companies that sort of set the standard for the industry.

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Marco Santarelli:

    ...you must consider the area and neighborhood just as much, if not more.  The neighborhood will have a larger impact on your cash-flow than the overall market.

    This is why we consider every layer. They all play a role. Therefore, don't invest "blindly" by market suggestions alone.

    Continued success!

    Agreed.  Very good advice ~

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
    Originally posted by @Ali Boone:
    Originally posted by @Tony Kim:

    Do you have a solid TK provider in Toledo? I'd be interested in learning more about the market. I'm working with turnkeys in Baltimore, Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Dayton, Indy, and KC. Just about all those will have higher cash flow than Atlanta at least, probably Memphis too. If it's similar to Memphis, there are still market fundamentals that go into them that I like better than Memphis.

    Ali, I'll give you some credit for that last sentence and because you earned my respect when I first found your blog and started reading it.  But the rest of this response is troubling when it comes from someone who gives advice.  First, I used to give you huge props because you only talked about specific companies that you had invested with.  If you're buying in all of the cities listed above and have personally worked with the companies to buy houses, then my hat is off to you.  I hope that is the case cause I'd hate to see you simply promoting companies for paydays.  You're personally journey was what I'd always ranked as your superpower over other promoters.

    As for the cash flow comments.  Cities do not cash flow.  Cities cannot produce cash flow.  Calculating a cash flow requires a mathematical equation and it goes up and down based on the inputs.  So it is easily manipulated.  With that being the case, any investment deal can produce a cash flow.  It simply requires different inputs.  To say that one city is a better cash flow city than another, in my opinion is really bad advice and too simple.  It almost panders to the lack of understanding by investors.  I can totally get behind a comment that you personally like some fundamentals of one city over another such as demographics, cost of housing, percentage of housing owner occupied, etc., but simply saying that a city is better for cash flow than another is inaccurate. There are plenty of investors right here on BP whose properties produce a monthly cash flow in every city in the U.S. including the often dumped on state of California.  Investors in L.A, San Diego, the Inland Empire, Central Valley - up and down the state are making a monthly cash flow on investment properties and not one of those areas will every make an 'experts' list of markets to invest for cash flow.   

    Chris, I would've thought you know me well enough to know that I've never been out for a payday. If I were, I'd be doing my entire business differently (truly). I'm actually a bit bummed... you and I have had such a great relationship over the years-- one I have truly valued-- which I thought meant you knew me better than that. Guess not. But noted.

    Keeping it very simple, if someone just shops for turnkeys (specifically) from providers in several different cities, the average cap rates will be higher in some cities other than Memphis. That just is what it is. I could go further into your arguments, which seem primarily focused around my wording which seems a bit extreme, but I think I'm just going to leave it alone. It seems like very disproportionate arguments to what I said in my [what I thought to be a very benign] post.

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ali Boone:
    Originally posted by @Chris Clothier:
    Originally posted by @Ali Boone:
    Originally posted by @Tony Kim:

    Do you have a solid TK provider in Toledo? I'd be interested in learning more about the market. I'm working with turnkeys in Baltimore, Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Dayton, Indy, and KC. Just about all those will have higher cash flow than Atlanta at least, probably Memphis too. If it's similar to Memphis, there are still market fundamentals that go into them that I like better than Memphis.

    Ali, I'll give you some credit for that last sentence and because you earned my respect when I first found your blog and started reading it.  But the rest of this response is troubling when it comes from someone who gives advice.  First, I used to give you huge props because you only talked about specific companies that you had invested with.  If you're buying in all of the cities listed above and have personally worked with the companies to buy houses, then my hat is off to you.  I hope that is the case cause I'd hate to see you simply promoting companies for paydays.  You're personally journey was what I'd always ranked as your superpower over other promoters.

    As for the cash flow comments.  Cities do not cash flow.  Cities cannot produce cash flow.  Calculating a cash flow requires a mathematical equation and it goes up and down based on the inputs.  So it is easily manipulated.  With that being the case, any investment deal can produce a cash flow.  It simply requires different inputs.  To say that one city is a better cash flow city than another, in my opinion is really bad advice and too simple.  It almost panders to the lack of understanding by investors.  I can totally get behind a comment that you personally like some fundamentals of one city over another such as demographics, cost of housing, percentage of housing owner occupied, etc., but simply saying that a city is better for cash flow than another is inaccurate. There are plenty of investors right here on BP whose properties produce a monthly cash flow in every city in the U.S. including the often dumped on state of California.  Investors in L.A, San Diego, the Inland Empire, Central Valley - up and down the state are making a monthly cash flow on investment properties and not one of those areas will every make an 'experts' list of markets to invest for cash flow.   

    Chris, I would've thought you know me well enough to know that I've never been out for a payday. If I were, I'd be doing my entire business differently (truly). I'm actually a bit bummed... you and I have had such a great relationship over the years-- one I have truly valued-- which I thought meant you knew me better than that. Guess not. But noted.

    Keeping it very simple, if someone just shops for turnkeys (specifically) from providers in several different cities, the average cap rates will be higher in some cities other than Memphis. That just is what it is. I could go further into your arguments, which seem primarily focused around my wording which seems a bit extreme, but I think I'm just going to leave it alone. It seems like very disproportionate arguments to what I said in my [what I thought to be a very benign] post.
     

     Ali, It's been a while since we've connected and I thought I was highlighting that you only speak about companies and/or cities where you have personally invested.  I don't follow closely anymore and hadn't seen all those cities listed from you as places you are working Turnkeys in.  So again, my hats off to you for expanding your portfolio that much.  Like I said, you have never come across as chasing paydays which is why I've always respected you so much more than other commentators who promote turnkey providers.  If that post came across as cutting at you, then I apologize.

    As for the advice, perhaps I'm just parsing words too much.  It is very hard for investors to get good advice and each time you or I or anyone else for that matter writes something, people take notice and in some cases place all of us on too high a pedestal.  I'm not the post auditor for Turnkey so I can't say your post was wrong. I just didn't agree with the notion that one city is better than another for achieving cash flow, but I can see the point you were trying to make simply about Turnkey offerings.  I meant no offense to you by my post and have always had and still do, the utmost respect for you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Canada · Member since 2012 · 102 posts · 95 votes
    7y

    @Chris Clothier I don’t know Ali not yourself but it sounds like you’re taking Ali’s words that one city may not cashflow as well as another to an extreme. We’re not trying to win in court here

  • Rental Property Investor · Sherwood, AR · Member since 2019 · 47 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    Is it possible to get into turn key with no money down, or will all of these kind of purchases require a down payment?

  • Investor · Searcy, AR · Member since 2018 · 52 posts · 39 votes
    6y

    I thought I knew a little bit about what the appraised value would be on a property. Turns out I am an idiot. There are a couple of things I have learned. MOST IMPORTANT, thoroughly read through your appraisal. MOST people, 99.9%, just look for the value. I know I did. Reach out to the individual who did the appraisal. You may need to get the permission from the bank or who ever contacted the appraiser first. Ask him/her to go over the appraisal with you. You CAN"T put pressure on an appraiser to come up with a value, that is illegal!!!!!! They should be happy to do this. Remember just because you say you have a new roof it may or may not affect the value. I always thought it would. Now I  realize that houses are supposed to come with a roof!!! LOL

    Your state laws may prevent you from talking with an appraiser so check and make sure it is ok.   

  • New to Real Estate · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    Also new and this has been a very helpful thread. Will provide my own experiences when the time comes. 

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