The US Economy Will Recover Quickly ??? Think Again !!!

The US Economy Will Recover Quickly ??? Think Again !!!

Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes

I keep hearing many investors speak of the housing market and stock market as if we are in a normal situation. Everything is great and the stimulus has solved all of the problems that a global pandemic has created. Take advantage of the situation and buy as many deals as you can before its to late. There are great deals in stocks that you should be pouncing on to ride the market to the new highs of 2021 and 2022. Trump looking good to get reelected will take us to places we have never been before with the US economy. Its really confusing and hard to believe that more people aren't sounding the alarm bells and getting ready for whats to come. Run while you can. This is just my opinion and everybody has there own way. I am not trying to offend anyone, and people must do what they feel is the right with there investment plans and strategies. Let me explain why are some of the reasons I think that the US economy is not ok, and we are up for some major pain to come.
 
Forbearance - Most inventors think that most banks are going to wrap your missed payments to the back end of your loan and you will not have to pay this until the end of your loan. So no big deal just 6 more payments and the loan will get paid off, but that is not the entire story. There are many private lenders who do not have to keep up good appearances in the public eye like the big banks do. They are going to require that the missed payments be paid all at once. With the majority of Americans living paycheck to paycheck this is just not going to be possible for them, and they will end up defaulting which will lead to a huge influx of foreclosures.

Brick and Mortar Jobs - Consumer confidence is at an all time low for going into buildings and doing business. This includes so many types of business' its very hard to name them all. All types of retail, hotels, restaurants, home goods, and small local business', to name a few. Many states have opened then shut down again and will not make the same mistake twice. This shut down will be much worse than the first because politicians will not want to look foolish if they reopen again and the numbers start to climb like they did the first time. With consumers not going out, how many people that are currently unemployed will get there jobs back. How could people think that this will have no effect at all on the US economy and that things will return to normal very soon. As soon as we get a vaccine or the numbers start trending lower everything will get right back to the way it was and business will be booming again in the US. This is a complicated process that will take years to come back from and In my opinion it has change the face of the way we do business forever.  

Inventory - With the above mentioned forbearance we are going to see huge amount of defaults. This is going to create a huge amount of inventory and the market will have no choice but to correct. Right now things look GREAT because of low inventory. This is causing a huge demand for housing because people are not selling like they were before covid, but when a flood of foreclosures hit the market things will shift. The banks are already preparing for this and have set aside billions to prepare for the coming flood of defaults and foreclosures.

Stimulus - Its going to dry up eventually, do you think they can keep pumping money into the market forever. When the bonus unemployment runs out and the bail outs stop there is going to be some pain. This is inevitable and the cheering bulls will soon start to change there tune and be heading for the hills.

RMBS and CMBS - this is a long complicated subject in itself, to long to list here and I am no expert, but all of these topics above are connected to mortgage backed securities. The government is not stepping in and helping the private lenders the way there helping Fanny and Freddie and once the banks start to sound the alarm bells the truth will come out and the market will correct.

Thanks for listening to my warning and rant. In my opinion if you can hold off or pass on some maybe marginal deals for the next few moths you should start to see more of the truth of the pain to come. Don't follow the masses. They are running straight off of a cliff and to me the signs are so obvious its hard not to see them. After all we are still in a global pandemic. Even though many people are trying to act like nothing is different, there going to have to face reality sooner or later, things have change and will take years to get back to the way they were before. Thanks Chris Gawlik

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Jimmy LieuBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2019 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

Fed money printer go brrrrrrrrr 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    None of my clients jobs were affected and no one I know has had any tenants stop paying either. This is in chicago class A/B areas. Markets on fire and lots of people with capital chasing deals here. 

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

    @Henry Lazerow I know at least 10 people on unemployment or furloughed, thats beside every poker room employee were I work. I am a poker dealer, and have been furloughed for the last 4 months, but like I said before im just a middle class guy. I know alot of middle class people who are unemployed and furloughed. They have also cut the hours of many people I know as well. 

    Its what happens after the stimulus and bonus unemployment benefits dry up. Maybe they never will and I can stay on unemployment forever. Ill sit around and play video games in my underwear all day and get paid for it. I'm making more on unemployment than I was dealing poker at the casino. Why would I want to go back to work? Can you see why they can't keep paying people forever.

    I live in a small suburb. Businesses are dying here. You live in a giant city. Things are different for local businesses. Look at it from there perspective and you will see pain, and that pain is going to get worse. CA shut down again for the 2nd time. There not going to make the same mistake twice. The numbers are going to have to trend down for much longer this time. The impact its going to have on the little guy will have an effect on the entire economy.

    A huge majority of the country are not bigger pockets type people. There are not going to be interested in reading how to become financially independent or how to start a new business. There playing XBOX and recording there favorite shows on TV and netflix. They have no savings and live paycheck to paycheck, but they still pay mortgage or rent. Its one or the other. I just don't think its possible for this to have no effect at all on the US economy.  

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    I keep hearing many investors speak of the housing market and stock market as if we are in a normal situation. Everything is great and the stimulus has solved all of the problems that a global pandemic has created. Take advantage of the situation and buy as many deals as you can before its to late. There are great deals in stocks that you should be pouncing on to ride the market to the new highs of 2021 and 2022. Trump looking good to get reelected will take us to places we have never been before with the US economy. Its really confusing and hard to believe that more people aren't sounding the alarm bells and getting ready for whats to come. Run while you can. This is just my opinion and everybody has there own way. I am not trying to offend anyone, and people must do what they feel is the right with there investment plans and strategies. Let me explain why are some of the reasons I think that the US economy is not ok, and we are up for some major pain to come.
     
    Forbearance - Most inventors think that most banks are going to wrap your missed payments to the back end of your loan and you will not have to pay this until the end of your loan. So no big deal just 6 more payments and the loan will get paid off, but that is not the entire story. There are many private lenders who do not have to keep up good appearances in the public eye like the big banks do. They are going to require that the missed payments be paid all at once. With the majority of Americans living paycheck to paycheck this is just not going to be possible for them, and they will end up defaulting which will lead to a huge influx of foreclosures.

    Brick and Mortar Jobs - Consumer confidence is at an all time low for going into buildings and doing business. This includes so many types of business' its very hard to name them all. All types of retail, hotels, restaurants, home goods, and small local business', to name a few. Many states have opened then shut down again and will not make the same mistake twice. This shut down will be much worse than the first because politicians will not want to look foolish if they reopen again and the numbers start to climb like they did the first time. With consumers not going out, how many people that are currently unemployed will get there jobs back. How could people think that this will have no effect at all on the US economy and that things will return to normal very soon. As soon as we get a vaccine or the numbers start trending lower everything will get right back to the way it was and business will be booming again in the US. This is a complicated process that will take years to come back from and In my opinion it has change the face of the way we do business forever.  

    Inventory - With the above mentioned forbearance we are going to see huge amount of defaults. This is going to create a huge amount of inventory and the market will have no choice but to correct. Right now things look GREAT because of low inventory. This is causing a huge demand for housing because people are not selling like they were before covid, but when a flood of foreclosures hit the market things will shift. The banks are already preparing for this and have set aside billions to prepare for the coming flood of defaults and foreclosures.

    Stimulus - Its going to dry up eventually, do you think they can keep pumping money into the market forever. When the bonus unemployment runs out and the bail outs stop there is going to be some pain. This is inevitable and the cheering bulls will soon start to change there tune and be heading for the hills.

    RMBS and CMBS - this is a long complicated subject in itself, to long to list here and I am no expert, but all of these topics above are connected to mortgage backed securities. The government is not stepping in and helping the private lenders the way there helping Fanny and Freddie and once the banks start to sound the alarm bells the truth will come out and the market will correct.

    Thanks for listening to my warning and rant. In my opinion if you can hold off or pass on some maybe marginal deals for the next few moths you should start to see more of the truth of the pain to come. Don't follow the masses. They are running straight off of a cliff and to me the signs are so obvious its hard not to see them. After all we are still in a global pandemic. Even though many people are trying to act like nothing is different, there going to have to face reality sooner or later, things have change and will take years to get back to the way they were before. Thanks Chris Gawlik

     Everything you're talking about sounds like opportunity to me.

    For some reason, my tenants seem to want to pay on time more often now than before the pandemic.

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    @Joe Splitrock I am betting all on this down turn. I have sold my primary and taken out all the equity and my other real estate investments are currently on the market. We are saving every penny we have and believe it or not will be saving 100k in cash in 2020. I am not rich. My wife and I both work 9-5's. I am a regular middle class guy, but I am trying to change that and become financially free. I believe that this can be done in the next 10 years and this downturn will give us an amazing start. Why would you want to buy a deal now when you can get the same deal for 50% less 2021. Yes timing the market is impossible and you can never buy at the dead bottom, but this is just my opinion. We are at the top of the cycle right now and covid is going to correct the stock market and the real estate market in the next year. Every one has there own opinion, but 10% does not even scratch the surface of whats about to happen. If Im wrong then Im wrong Im going to wait it out and see what happens for the next 6 months or so. If the economic data or more stimulus changes things, then I will have to readjust my plans and move forward.    

     I'm all for the optimism, but 50% drops? Come on.

    Houses prices went UP as a whole in 4 out of the last 5 recessions. Look it up. You are equating a recession with a drop in property values and that thought process simply isn't historically accurate (or even close).

    IMO saving money when they almost doubled the money supply is.. being diplomatic here.. not smart.

    Ray Dalio, Robert Kiyosaki, .. listen to them. They got this investing thing right so I hear.

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    Ok step back from the edge of the building, pull the toaster away from the bathtub, hold on a minute before going full "Mad Max" end of the world, it's time for a little reality check.  

    Say a total housing collapse happens, by whatever unicorn riding leprechaun spreading depression pixi-dust, to make mass foreclosure on level for a 50% price reduction as stated. That requires at minimum about 20% of households going into foreclosure, about 20 million properties nationally. Please riddle for me what happens to 20 million families? Did they follow the leprechaun back into the unicorn cave? It's spoken about as if these 20 million families just "POOF" into thin air, disappear. How does foreclosure = never needing a roof over their head again?

    20 million families loosing their homes = 20 million families RENTING, which would be the single largest flood of persons needing housing since WWII. 

    Now correct me if I am wrong (trick question, I'm not wrong) but 20 million NEW families needing rental units would spur a mass need for..... wait for it..... PROPERTIES would it not? And need = demand, demand = purchasing and purchasing = value support. 

    Market adjustments absolutely, economic strain you betchya, mass foreclosures.... really, really. This is NOT 08/09, literally 0% of same things happening, ZERO. 

     That’s cute.

    Riddle me this - what does the buying power look like for 20-40 million people who have lost a significant portion of their income and had a credit impact?  What is their capacity to pay current market prices for rent?  What does the housing market look like when they lose their unemployment/PPP and eviction protections?  And how quickly do you think any economy can add tens of millions of jobs?


    There are no pleasant answers to these.  The obvious answers are either a 20-30% drop in prices or prolonged government support with all the strings attached.  I have yet to see any third option although the reason I bother even writing anything is i am looking for other answers.  So far though, nothing.

    And one last question, not that I expect any well thought out response is: why is it your default assumption that high prices are a good thing?  Price discovery is vital to capitalism.  By artificially propping them up, it slows down every other facet of every other consumer expenditure; the ripple effect of huge mortgages and high rents is an overall impoverished economy.  What good do you comes from people paying 40-60% of after tax income on housing?  There are other things in life.

    Riddle Answered: The buying power of 20-40 million people dosn't matter, it is the purchasing power of 150 fund level investors, or even just 10% of that number. On average a very small fund is around $20m in acquisition power, and most small funds are closer to $50m acquisition power, I know this because I have worked in this segment from the inside on acquisition teams so yes 1st hand experience. With that math in hand just call the median $35m, 100 small funds is in excess of $3B. Now we have large institutional buyers set and operational, that never existed 08/09. Their is so much $ sitting looking for good deployment at this very moment, hundreds of billions if not more in capital investment liquidity. 

    As for these jobs, exactly where are you plucking these fictional numbers from, 20m jobs just gone, eviscerated never to return ever? But let's go with that for arguments sake. Just like as happened in 08/09 cycle the very actions of investor purchasing and various actions in the down running economy will create new employment potentials. Fact is right now there is a major labor SHORTAGE, business are TRYING to hire left right and center, issue is people are electing not to work, to rather use entitlements vs working, so call call bs on that lame duck argument, our #1 problem is persons not engaging in the workforce out of entitlement mindset, not unemployment. 

    Honestly what would be best for this country is a complete cutoff of the entitlement benefits, the only way to end the entitlement mindset is to break it, get back to a work based mindset, get our workforce involvement rate back up. 

    08/09 was a collapse of the very mechanisms and systems themselves that facilitated economic activity, with inflated inventory, that is simply not the case what so ever here, we have shortages and persons electing out of workforce by in large, saying they don't want to do xyz, not that their isnt jobs available just not the jobs they want to do. This is more a social crisis than an economic one. Again, their is mass hiring efforts happening now, today, all over, and people choosing not to do the work, ask any electrician, plumber, carpenter, home builder, medical clinic, dentist and so on and so fourth, the "trades" are struggling severely with labor shortages. So how quick can millions of jobs get "made", well they already exist so I say about 72hrs if entitlements to not work are cut and persons forced to engage into the workforce. Focus entitlements for those who legitimately CANT work not those who choose not to unless they can do what they want. 

    Bolded statement above is 100% bang-on.

    The average Chinese worker will outwork a top 10% worker in the US, they will save 40% of their income, and the Chinese are a lot more family oriented and future oriented. In the US, people are being encouraged "find themselves", "strong and independent" lot of anti-family brainwashing from the media to the ---show they call a University now. And the government is happy to fund all these people's bad habits and mistakes.

    IMO, Americans have has it so easy for 4 generations.. its not a surprise the standard person from East Asia runs circles around the typical American who has had it way too easy.

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

    @Andrey Y. Okay you may be right, but look at it from my perspective. What will 6 months mean to me over the next 20 years to wait it out and be cautious. I'm not sure what your financial situation is, but I will prob only be able to buy 1 rental and a primary to live in. I'm just a middle class guy. Many bullish people posting are veterans here. You have 1.8k posts here. You are obviously very interested in RE and just guessing here have done quite well for your self in RE. I wish I would have been smarter when I was in my 20's or even 30's but I wasn't. I didn't really start becoming really interested in RE and seeing the error of my ways until I was around 35. So buying now for me is not the same as buying for others on the site. Everyone is in a different financial situation and a downturn could hurt me really bad. It only take a few missed payments and there goes my life savings. Wow that would really hurt. I'ts not like I'm saying I'm not going to buy any deals until the market drops 50%. All I'm saying is I don't know whats going to happen and want to play it safe. At the start of this post I stated that everyone has there own strategy and risk tolerance. My risk tolerance is pretty low. 

    Starting over again at 40 sounds daunting. I am trying to reset my life now and retire early and help my kids get through school. I know what I need to do now, but don't know if I have enough time to let the investments grow and become passive enough to do it. Once your in a hole its hard to dig your self out of it.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    @James Hamling How much skin do you have in the game? Sounds like you have quite a bit. For those of you who have millions of dollars in assets, if theirs a downturn it may not effect you in the same way it will effect others or ME. Think of a real world view of this and not from a university economics degree standpoint. If I have a mortgage payment due and don't have a job how am I going to pay. If I have rent due how am I going to pay. If I'm an investor and rely heavily on paying mortgages with rent how can I pay. You really think covid is having no effect on businesses right now. How is that possible. 3 local businesses in my town have already closed there doors in the last month. Sounds like a simple example of something really complex, but if thats going on in my small city don't you think this is happening across the country. I guess they could bail out people with stimulus forever. We'll never have to work again. Its really hard to believe that some of you think that there will be no correction or any repercussions from a global pandemic at all. Why are banks doing this then?

    Banks say they are tightening lending standards even as demand for money falls    

    How is this going to help the economy. Look I'm no economist and don't have an economics degree like some of you posting. I'm not some mega rich investor who has 100 doors or flips 10-20 deals a months either. I'm just a 40 year old middle class guy who is trying to help out with my retirement or hopefully retire early. I'm just trying to use common sense to see what happens to the market in the next 6 months. There will always be another deal or beatup house to buy. I'm saving a ton of money right now anyway. Not the kind of money you ballers out there make, but for us middle class people its going to help out quite a bit with retirement and kids college funds. 

     I appreciate your honesty, and where your coming from. I am going to match you in like kind with brutal complete honesty. You asked if you need to pay your mortgage or rent what do you do, YOU GET A JOB. Or get 2, or 3, that's what you do. And no I have 0 sympathy because my business's exist because I make them exist, I do things I don't feel like all the time, like when I was going to University and I worked 2 FT jobs at the same time, sleep, work, study, work, repeat, 7 days a week, why, because that's what it took. 

    This is why immigrant families crush americans over and over and over again. Their is a LABOR SHORTAGE, no shortage of jobs, just jobs people don't want to do. And if rents due go knock doors to mow lawns for $20.00, put out a sign of washing cars for $10.00, I can go on and on but fact is their is ZERO shortage of income potential, just complete and total lack of self responsibility. 

    As for COVID, come to Africa and experience malaria or any of the dozen plus other regular diseases that kill at a rate 20X what covid does. What are you going to do, hid in your basement forever? Covid is not going anywhere, it's reality, yes catching it means a 2% chance of death on average, and that means a 98% chance of living so let's stop using it as an excuse as if it's the black plague going on and nobody can do anything or else they will die. 

    It's time for people to end the entitlement BS, come down off the cross, build a bridge with the wood and get over it. Yup, I said it, GET OVER IT, which is what 75% of people actually think but are too afraid of the "PC Police" to say. Those of us over 40 have experienced times like this and harder INCLUDING virus's, only difference is people weren't whilting in the streets crying and whaling on how oh so hard it all is. We rolled up our sleeves, got to work, did 2 jobs or more, did jobs we didnt like and did them with all our effort because THATS WHAT AMERICANS DO, or at least did. 

    How do you pay your bills, GO WORK, make work, suck it up and do what you have to. 

  • Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 814 posts · 466 votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik

    I appreciate your enthusiasm about REI.

    First your political view.. Ok, everyone has one, regardless I have little confidence on your next 100 paragraphs taken from whatever article/study or magazine, etc.  

    Please get to the point, I have read some of the paragraphs, and most of them are disconnected from your synopsis.  That was really hard to read and follow!

    It felt like I was defending my MS degree thesis and scrutinized by four of my mentors/professors and the chairman to comment on this... On this particular one, I failed.  

  • Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik thank you for the post! I appreciate your input.

  • Rental Property Investor · Jonesboro, AR · Member since 2019 · 105 posts · 59 votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik

    I'm with you on some of this stuff your saying. I think that most retail space is a thing of the past. Even banks dont need brick and mortar buildings any more.

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    I keep hearing many investors speak of the housing market and stock market as if we are in a normal situation. Everything is great and the stimulus has solved all of the problems that a global pandemic has created. Take advantage of the situation and buy as many deals as you can before its to late. There are great deals in stocks that you should be pouncing on to ride the market to the new highs of 2021 and 2022. Trump looking good to get reelected will take us to places we have never been before with the US economy. Its really confusing and hard to believe that more people aren't sounding the alarm bells and getting ready for whats to come. Run while you can. This is just my opinion and everybody has there own way. I am not trying to offend anyone, and people must do what they feel is the right with there investment plans and strategies. Let me explain why are some of the reasons I think that the US economy is not ok, and we are up for some major pain to come.
     
    Forbearance - Most inventors think that most banks are going to wrap your missed payments to the back end of your loan and you will not have to pay this until the end of your loan. So no big deal just 6 more payments and the loan will get paid off, but that is not the entire story. There are many private lenders who do not have to keep up good appearances in the public eye like the big banks do. They are going to require that the missed payments be paid all at once. With the majority of Americans living paycheck to paycheck this is just not going to be possible for them, and they will end up defaulting which will lead to a huge influx of foreclosures.

    Brick and Mortar Jobs - Consumer confidence is at an all time low for going into buildings and doing business. This includes so many types of business' its very hard to name them all. All types of retail, hotels, restaurants, home goods, and small local business', to name a few. Many states have opened then shut down again and will not make the same mistake twice. This shut down will be much worse than the first because politicians will not want to look foolish if they reopen again and the numbers start to climb like they did the first time. With consumers not going out, how many people that are currently unemployed will get there jobs back. How could people think that this will have no effect at all on the US economy and that things will return to normal very soon. As soon as we get a vaccine or the numbers start trending lower everything will get right back to the way it was and business will be booming again in the US. This is a complicated process that will take years to come back from and In my opinion it has change the face of the way we do business forever.  

    Inventory - With the above mentioned forbearance we are going to see huge amount of defaults. This is going to create a huge amount of inventory and the market will have no choice but to correct. Right now things look GREAT because of low inventory. This is causing a huge demand for housing because people are not selling like they were before covid, but when a flood of foreclosures hit the market things will shift. The banks are already preparing for this and have set aside billions to prepare for the coming flood of defaults and foreclosures.

    Stimulus - Its going to dry up eventually, do you think they can keep pumping money into the market forever. When the bonus unemployment runs out and the bail outs stop there is going to be some pain. This is inevitable and the cheering bulls will soon start to change there tune and be heading for the hills.

    RMBS and CMBS - this is a long complicated subject in itself, to long to list here and I am no expert, but all of these topics above are connected to mortgage backed securities. The government is not stepping in and helping the private lenders the way there helping Fanny and Freddie and once the banks start to sound the alarm bells the truth will come out and the market will correct.

    Thanks for listening to my warning and rant. In my opinion if you can hold off or pass on some maybe marginal deals for the next few moths you should start to see more of the truth of the pain to come. Don't follow the masses. They are running straight off of a cliff and to me the signs are so obvious its hard not to see them. After all we are still in a global pandemic. Even though many people are trying to act like nothing is different, there going to have to face reality sooner or later, things have change and will take years to get back to the way they were before. Thanks Chris Gawlik

    COVID has been around for like 6 months and governments have not informed their citizens about all the risks related to COVID. This is not like the flu. It can destroy your lungs and there is young people that have lost breathing capacity and will not recover from this.

    COVID can also have an impact on neurological diseases.

    It is very serious and very worrying that governments are not providing enough information to the population and are playing games on their voters just to try to remain in power no matter what. They don't care about anyone, just about winning a stupid election.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 576 posts · 307 votes
    6y

    There are a couple different schools of thought on this one. I'm in the San Antonio market, and so far the feedback I've gotten from clients and customers has been a bit black and white. Half are concerned that all the foreclosures and distressed situations to come will lower the purchase price of deals and open the door for opportunity, the other half feel we are only going to keep climbing and have been paying 5-10% over asking price on deals due to the scarcity from less people selling at the moment. I'm somewhere in the middle, I believe our values will remain stable due to how they were resistant to the last major real estate crash. That being said, I have NOT encouraged people to go crazy on these bidding wars. I wouldn't want anyone working with me to overpay. I encourage putting in strong offers where the numbers make sense.

  • Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    I think @Joe Splitrock has gives some of the best advice on this thread: buy in a good location and hang on.  People always desire to live in the best location they can afford.  Demand for good locations pushes up rents and property values over time.  If you invest in a location that is desirable, has a diverse economic base, good transportation, access to desirable amenities, and a reasonably pleasant climate, you'll come out okay, even if values go down in the near future.  Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating overpaying.  Buy deals that make sense at today's prices in terms of cash flow and you should be okay even if it takes a few years to return to where it was.  Keep your reserves flush, and limit exposure to short-term debt.

    If the worst does happen, none of this isn't going to matter anyway.

  • Rental Property Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2016 · 337 posts · 470 votes
    6y

    Don't disagree with any of the points made about the economy and the warning signs.  What can't be overstated, however, is the MASSIVE amounts of money being created by the FED to counterbalance the weak data.  

    The economy may not recover, but the false band-aid that's been put on through money printing can keep assets afloat and even rising for some time. 

    Consider what a weaker dollar means for any future investment projection.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik unfortunately as you sit on your cash, inflation will devalue your net worth. You miss out on opportunity. You stated "Why would you want to buy a deal now when you can get the same deal for 50% less 2021." Tell me where that market is that will drop 50% in value? That is way worse than the housing crisis. You are predicting another Great Depression in 2021. I agree on the stock market, I have pulled out of the the stock market in some of my investments, but I am all in on housing.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · New York, NY · Member since 2019 · 340 posts · 122 votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik I agree with everything you are saying. With that being said that promotes opportunities for cash buyers who are able to offer motivated home sellers a chance to sell their homes for a discount. Even with the stock market and real estate during the pandemic there will be mostly losers and some winners. If you strategize efficiently you will be on a winning side. Businesses can flourish regardless of pandemic or no pandemic. It’s just that a crisis even heightens the fear factor - allowing certain people with strategies to capitalize on it.

  • John LyszczykPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Marine City, MI · Member since 2016 · 146 posts · 230 votes
    6y

    Not all states are hurting like California is...tax hikes and socialist ideology is driving businesses and individuals out of the state. This has been happening for quite sometime and a global plandemic reveals the weaknesses even more. 

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    @Joe Splitrock I am betting all on this down turn. I have sold my primary and taken out all the equity and my other real estate investments are currently on the market. We are saving every penny we have and believe it or not will be saving 100k in cash in 2020. I am not rich. My wife and I both work 9-5's. I am a regular middle class guy, but I am trying to change that and become financially free. I believe that this can be done in the next 10 years and this downturn will give us an amazing start. Why would you want to buy a deal now when you can get the same deal for 50% less 2021. Yes timing the market is impossible and you can never buy at the dead bottom, but this is just my opinion. We are at the top of the cycle right now and covid is going to correct the stock market and the real estate market in the next year. Every one has there own opinion, but 10% does not even scratch the surface of whats about to happen. If Im wrong then Im wrong Im going to wait it out and see what happens for the next 6 months or so. If the economic data or more stimulus changes things, then I will have to readjust my plans and move forward.    

     Whoa.  That's taking action.  I have respect for walking the talk, correct or not.  This isn't the typical chicken little is right, prove me wrong post.  Chris sold his house!

    I have enjoyed this discussion.  James, Walter and Joe especially have offered some interesting high level economic arguments both ways and I've enjoyed them. 

    I operate on a few guiding principles when it comes to RE investing.  None of them are decided by the Fed, the president, China or other macro factors.  My paper equity / stock and MF decisions may factor these in, but that's personally a small % of my world. I am about 50% cash in brokerage assets, so not real optimistic FWIW.  Frothy IMO.

    What does guide me on sell decisions as a 10x napper?  Headache factor.  Headaches go bye-bye.  Indigestion is usually tenants, headaches the asset itself.  #2 tax positioning.  If it's in my best interest to exit say one house per year, and it has been since '17, selling the headache makes it easier.  #3 micro econ factors in the neighborhood / market.  I am exchanging out of 1 market now.  Rural ride was fun, but they are running out of water in a decade or so. Time for me to find a chair and consolidate in my backyard. Know topics and issues being discussed at your town hall/ city council meetings. National unemployment won't be one. 

    Buying decisions are easier.  The asset must be purchased for cash-flow or equity capture.  Have both in your portfolio - appreciating and cash-flow assets.  My market is expensive, so cf = MF.  Never pay retail or get house fever, standing in line competing.   Off-market quiet sales are where it's at.  Find them. 

    Never a motivated buyer or seller be.  RE is local.  Stay informed and don't pay retail. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2020 · 758 posts · 285 votes
    6y

    We really can't tell right now as we have not defeated covid yet. There are so much of uncertainties. The report today is different and the reports on the next days to come will be different. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Monterey, CA · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 11 votes
    6y

    @Justin Thorpe what about the FED printing. Vaccines and pills won’t return the money.

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik I agree that the US (and probably world?) economy is currently being negatively impacted by covid19, that the aid in the form of unemployment and stimulus has masked the depth of the problems and that the economy is likely to get worse before it gets better. So I'm going to rub on my crystal ball and take a few guesses.

    I believe there is likely to be a long slow decline as we struggle along while politicians try this and that to make things better (and purchase votes for their team).

    I think that the suffering is likely to be very uneven, The most initial suffering will be (has been) in high cost of living, dense, urban areas as entertainment remains "on-hold" indefinitely.

    Out here in the hinterlands of "flyover country" people in rural areas and small towns have been on the "dollar general economy" struggle bus since the last recession (depression)-- there is no tourism, not much of an "art scene", and most people get their football fix on tv or at the local high school. Working people seem to be inured to the struggle. In the likely event that congress continues to prop up the working poor with unemployment, in the short to mid term, the people that are going to be hurt next and probably the most in "middle america" are the people that drive job growth: the self-employed and small business owners who always struggle to compete with the big guys in our "free market" where the rules are made by the big players. These are the people that are going to lose their life savings as small businesses close permanently as they will not be able to weather a sustained slow down. Finally in the later stages, after many small and even medium size businesses are permanently shuttered and the government is unable to continue support of unemployed workers long term, we'll all end up in even worse shape, competing for fewer jobs.

    So to sum it up: the clowns on the right are going to work on giving big corporations all the handouts and unfettered power they've ever asked for and the clowns on the left will throw money at poor working people and both sides will continue to do exactly what they're doing right now: screwing over the small business owners that really drive the economy so we're ALL going to be screwed in a couple of years.

    Geez that sounds bleak. I sure hope I'm wrong :(

  • Rental Property Investor · parksville, bc · Member since 2017 · 153 posts · 148 votes
    6y

    One of the main reasons I invest in real estate is because it's not the stock market. If you buy for cash flow, you don't need to time the market. Are we set for a drop in housing prices? Maybe. Will a house be worth more in ten years than it is today? I don't believe there has ever been a time when national housing prices have decreased over a 10 year span. I bought my first house at the start of the 2008 recession and sold 8 years later for a 35% profit. 

    People that are selling their properties now, with hopes of capitalizing in the coming years, are speculating, which is essentially turning housing into stocks. Investing in long term residential housing that cash flows does't require timing the market or speculation. It simply banks on people needing housing. If housing is no longer a necessity, we have bigger issues to deal with than our ROIs.

    If you need to sell within 3 years, maybe don't buy now. If you plan to hold for longer, buy for cash flow and ride it out. You'll be happy when inflation from the fed printing money hits.

  • Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
    6y

    @Mark Braun

    They will normalize and that will mean more business, more jobs and more revenue!

  • Dan DiFilippoBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Fayetteville, NC · Member since 2020 · 251 posts · 244 votes
    6y

    @Mark Braun central bank reserve (not really money) printing isn't stimulative. 100% increase in the monetary base hasn't fundamentally changed anything. There is too much debt and not enough economic opportunity to support it.

    Brookdale Property Management
  • Rental Property Investor · Eugene/ Springfield, OR · Member since 2012 · 99 posts · 69 votes
    6y

    If you're someone who believes that they can time the bottom or at least get close and believes they're able to see "blood in the streets" i have one thing to say to you. You're totally right!!! Keep waiting, you're going to do great. In the mean time i've bought and sold two flips since march both very successful and I plan on doing at least two more this year.

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