Fannie Mae Homepath property - sitting idle

Fannie Mae Homepath property - sitting idle

Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes

There is a property that I have been watching for the last six months.

Starting at 219K, it lowered it's price 209K, 199K, 189K, 179K, 169K, 159K in between it went under contract twice, then came back on the market.

When it came down to 159K I submitted an offer of 130K. The bank countered another offer, presumably a higher one.

Then the contract fell apart and after that the agent lowered it to 144K. I resubmitted my offer of 130K cash and the agent told me five days ago there is no other offer. The bank hasn't countered nor accepted my offer, just sitting idle.

OK now on to why the previous offers kept falling apart...the property has a 310K lien by the city - and this amount is growing every day by $300. Illegal structure and unpermitted driveway, both need to be removed. Once removed the city will accept 10% of the outstanding lien which as of today is 31K. So my offer is essentially 130K + 31K + removal cost + $30 per day between now and when it closes. Probably previous buyers didn't realize the liens until they get to their due diligence period then they freaked and backed out.

Now my question is, is it unusual for FNMA to sit on an offer and just ignore it? No counter no acceptance? Does it mean my offer is dead? I guess there is no way to expedite this? The longer they wait the more the lien at $300 a day.

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Investor · Boerne, TX · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 25 votes
12y
The big red flag to me here is the assumption that the local gov will accept 10% of the lien. Make sure you get that in writing.
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  • Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes
    12y

    @Sam Leon ....Patience...It's not dead...I purchased a FNMA that took about 45 days.. A large tree had fallen on the back side of the home. I wanted it removed and repaired...They refused. I submitted another offer much lower and got it...Make sure your realtor stays on top of it.

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Sam Leon

    Honestly out here what the bank is doing while seemly annoying and bad business practices is annoying. They think they will get a better price. Have you let on that you know about the cities liens? If you haven't, when this comes up in due diligence I would ask for them to cover some of it! That way hopefully they cover some of this cost.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y

    well, an update.

    the agent told me FNMA rejected my offer and as of now there is no other offer.

    yes, the listing agent is aware of the liens. I had a few conversations with the city and the code compliance department. It is still piling on $300 a day of fine on top of the existing 310K lien.

    listing agent told me there was a previous buyer being countered at 143K.

    then they changed asset manager...the LA said it will take some time for the asset manager to become aware of the lien situation as they have no direct contact with the AM.

    right now listing price is 145K.

    my offer - rejected was 130K cash no inspection.

    LA told me it's 1 week from another price adjustment which she will attempt to knock another 20K off which would make the asking price 125K.

    I said why don't you submit a new offer for me at 131K BEFORE the price adjustment and see what happens?

    LA suggested may be a better approach is to wait till the price adjustment happen and submit by 131K offer.

    But my concern is by that time that may attract a few more offers in and get into a multiple offer situation.

    Thoughts? Should I send in a new offer BEFORE the price adjustment or AFTER?

  • Real Estate Broker · Orange, CT · Member since 2013 · 951 posts · 218 votes
    12y

    The bank should be giving you clear title which means all the liens settled at closing. This is an REO .. not a Court House Foreclosure Auction. You might be assuming your taking over the liens, while the bank is deducting them from their net. If that's the case, you should be offering full list price since you assumed you were paying $130k + $31k.

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Sam Leon

    We lost 3 REO's. We were not waiting for the price drops but they happened right when we were ready and than there were multiples. The prices than went ridiculously high. Two set a new "market" signifier. The people that this "lower" price is attracting probably can't pay the higher price.

    I have found that alot of people at the $120k threshold can't afford a $150k or they wouldn't be looking at the $120k. This is just my experience.If the liens truly exist and aren't going away (the foreclosures came clean that we bought) than you might want to wait. Offer an all cash full price offer at $125k, and save yourself $6,000.

    We found that the banks really weren't willing to negiate and very narrow siteness. So take advatange of it.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Phil Z.:
    The bank should be giving you clear title which means all the liens settled at closing. This is an REO .. not a Court House Foreclosure Auction. You might be assuming your taking over the liens, while the bank is deducting them from their net. If that's the case, you should be offering full list price since you assumed you were paying $130k + $31k.

    Phil, the liens are super priority liens and that's why it survived the foreclosure action. Ownership changes does not wipe that out.

    Already spoken to the city who told me the 310k lien, which should be 315k by now cannot be released until the violatons are addressed and corrected, then paid off.

    Fannie Mae stated they will not correct the violations nor pay thr liens. I think their standard REO addendum has language to address that which supersedes the state contract.

    They already had three previous investors backed out due to this and now the LA put "buyer assumes existing lien of over 300k ..."

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Elizabeth Colegrove:
    @Sam Leon

    We lost 3 REO's. We were not waiting for the price drops but they happened right when we were ready and than there were multiples. The prices than went ridiculously high. Two set a new "market" signifier. The people that this "lower" price is attracting probably can't pay the higher price.

    I have found that alot of people at the $120k threshold can't afford a $150k or they wouldn't be looking at the $120k. This is just my experience.If the liens truly exist and aren't going away (the foreclosures came clean that we bought) than you might want to wait. Offer an all cash full price offer at $125k, and save yourself $6,000.

    We found that the banks really weren't willing to negiate and very narrow siteness. So take advatange of it.

    Elizabeth are you suggesting I wait till after the price drop then offer full listing price, or to do it now before the price adjustment?

  • Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes
    12y

    @Sam Leon ...Also consider putting up 5K(or more) earnest money. It indicates you're serious and will close the deal...

  • Investor · Boerne, TX · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 25 votes
    12y
    The big red flag to me here is the assumption that the local gov will accept 10% of the lien. Make sure you get that in writing.
  • Real Estate Broker · Orange, CT · Member since 2013 · 951 posts · 218 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Ross K.:
    The big red flag to me here is the assumption that the local gov will accept 10% of the lien. Make sure you get that in writing.

    I agree with Ross .. that's a BIG if. I wouldn't recommend buying a property with inherent liens at 3x its value. Fannie Mae is going to have to eventually take care of the issues. The listing agent probably isn't getting the point across to management.

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Sam Leon

    I would wait till it drops. Than I would offer your same offer. Are you using financing or cash? If you are using cash I would offer the whole ernest money as the cash amount. We have found to show our "interest" we offer the "whole" amount that we are required to pay. Since we were already paying it for our financing, it simply showed the seriousness.

    Good Luck! We found with the change in market climate. The banks were REALLY hard to work with as investors.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Rolanda Eldridge:
    @Sam Leon ...Also consider putting up 5K(or more) earnest money. It indicates you're serious and will close the deal...

    Rolanda,

    My last offer was at 10%, so 13,000. I could offer more but LA told me its not necessary since there was no other offer on the table.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Ross K.:
    The big red flag to me here is the assumption that the local gov will accept 10% of the lien. Make sure you get that in writing.

    Interesting you brought that up. I spoke to their code compliance supervisor and also their business office, they told me the same, they will discount 90% once it passed inspection.

    But you are right, not in writing, they could change their mind, policy could change, they could have misunderstood. I was going to leave this question till a later time when I do have a contract executed moving into my due diligence process. Also during that time I could talk to the compliance officer about my approach to fix the violations to see if they will be open to it, right now they won't talk to me I have no purchase agreement.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth Colegrove:
    @Sam Leon

    I would wait till it drops. Than I would offer your same offer. Are you using financing or cash? If you are using cash I would offer the whole ernest money as the cash amount. We have found to show our "interest" we offer the "whole" amount that we are required to pay. Since we were already paying it for our financing, it simply showed the seriousness.

    Good Luck! We found with the change in market climate. The banks were REALLY hard to work with as investors.

    Elizabeth I am offering cash. I have never offered 100% EMD though, 50% I have done.

    Does it matter? I was under the impression EMD might make a difference only in multiple offer situation. May be I will try that.

    Does a bank change asset manager for a property often to minimize people gaming the system? Seems I run into AM switch a lot.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y

    Quick update.

    I asked agent to hold my offer until a decision on price reduction has been reached. However no decision...

    So offer resubmitted, FNMA countered back with a 1K ($1000) price reduction. Countered the counter as highest and best. No reply - most likely will be rejected.

    Does Homepath submittal have a place where one can include some sort of explanation or letter to state my price justification? I would like to include the fact that there is a huge city lien twice the value of the property hanging over it.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y

    Well, what do you know...they accepted my offer.

    So now the 10 day due diligence period begin and I have A TON of work.

    All the city liens and fines and violations need to be thoroughly researched.

    Property currently has no power no water I am trying to figure out how to get it properly inspected.

    I had planned on taking the rest of the week off for spring break and this call from the agent through everything into chaos!

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    Congrats with getting FannieMae to accept the offer! You really wanted the property and you got it! Timing is never on our side unfortunately. You take what you can get!

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Johnson H.:
    Congrats with getting FannieMae to accept the offer! You really wanted the property and you got it! Timing is never on our side unfortunately. You take what you can get!

    Thanks Johnson, now the real fun begins.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y

    Another update.

    I backed out of the deal.

    As soon as FNMA accepted by offer, I had to commit to EMD and sign their REO addendum.

    They asked for a 90 day deed restriction, which I was OK with.

    The property is probably worth 165K when it's rent ready, but right now it's not.

    My accepted offer was 131K, with an estimated 20K to correct the violations - well the violations I know of - illegal fence, illegal staircase, illegal pond, two illegal exterior structures (gazebo style steam room and weight room), and illegal driveway and decking, plus some interior violations on a master bathroom plumbing.

    Oh, and a 345K city lien from years of daily fine.

    So when the clock started ticking I began to do my "thorough due diligence".

    Had my attorney reviewed the contract and looked into the lien issue.

    Now, the city, as a matter of policy, WILL reduce the lien down by 90% once the new owner makes the corrections and clear all the violations. It is not a matter of IF, they will. I spoke to the director of code compliance as well as zoning, and my attorney also verified independently...here is an article.

    Hallandale city managers erased millions in code violation fines with little oversight

    The only risk may be if this mess drags on, and they change the policy, then it may be subjected to commission hearing.

    After checking with their building department, they also told me if I commit to clear all violations, they will give me a nine month time frame to clear the issue and halt the daily fine while I resolve things so it will not pile up further. That helps.

    Now on to the inspection. Currently property has no water and no electric. LA says they can turn on electric, but water cannot be activated due to non-payment and there is a fine. Around $500. I asked to turn water on. LA says asset manager is aware and needs to sign off to pay off the owed amount and reactivate the account, but somehow asset manager is taking it's time. I had schedule the inspection for day 8 of the 10 day due diligence period, so that day 9 I will receive the report and can back out on day 10. Well on day 8 still no water, and I am not comfortable with not being able to turn on water at all. STRIKE ONE.

    Next I started hitting in all directions trying to get a handle on all the violations - it has a long list, with a bunch of vague descriptions. For example, it says "REMOVE ILLEGAL PLUMBING MODIFICATIONS" but didn't say where. The two gazebos that had to be demolished, one of them had a hot tub and toilet in it, not sure if it refers to that or something in the main house.

    Unfortunately, the time for seeking any sort of variance has passed. The gazebos were erected within the setbacks and had to be removed.

    Driveway had to be torn out because it reduced the city's required residential 40% minimum landscaped areas.

    However, a new mystery. While reviewing the violation folder of this property which is now over an inch thick, one of the officers in charge said he remembered that property and the "rear addition was illegal". WOW, that throws a new monkey wrench into the picture. No where in the file says anything about a rear "ADDITION". They couldn't find any references either and had no record of any changes, permitted or unpermitted. What is really messed up is the city doesn't keep records over 10 years! They destroy it. They don't archive it, microfiche it, scan it...it's GONE. So when I asked them what's illegal they said it needs to be returned to the original, permitted design and layout, I asked them what was the original design and layout they couldn't tell me.

    Code compliance didn't have anything. No records, no original plans. Only vague memory of someone who remembers something.

    Original inspector for that case is no longer with the city.

    No one else remembers.

    I went to their permits section and pulled their permits, but nothing turned up except a scan of old survey which is no longer legible for the most part.

    Then I went to the property appraiser's office and asked if they have records of the property's square footage record over the years. They have something.

    Original in 1960, the square footage was 1767 SF.

    Then in 1974, they recorded a new back porch - added legally (they think) which is 17'x13', an added 221 SF. The new total SF would have been 1767 + 221 = 1988 SF.

    The property appraiser's legal SF now is 1987 SF, seems like a good match - to me anyways. So they legally added a back porch.

    However, the actual building now has a back "room" which is now a functional master bathroom - so they enclosed the porch, and may have extended the porch, probably raised the floor elevation to match plus a bunch of other things. Now all this is new, and I have no idea what it would cost to "return it to a porch" or what the city wants.

    Bear in mind this new finding was done by me at the county. City doesn't know yet. They still don't know what the legal layout is supposed to be and no one could tell me that. I supposed I could argue that the back addition should be legalized since no one could tell me what it looked like before and there is no explicit violations cited in that two inch thick case file, but that's a huge risk. STRIKE TWO.

    With those two issues and my 10 day deadline bearing down, I decided to pass on the deal.

    If I want the house there has to be some price adjustment to reflect the new risks.

    I wonder if FNMA is open to some sort of tabulated cost analysis to help them make a more informed decision, I doubt it. LA said it is highly unlikely they will take another price reduction. So a lot of energy went into this one and I turned the city building department upside down, talking to zoning, engineering, code enforcement, permits, most of them got to know me now and hope I would buy the property and fix it up LOL.

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    You wasted your vacation for nothing. . oh, btw went to Hallandale high cl school

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @George P.:
    You wasted your vacation for nothing. . oh, btw went to Hallandale high cl school

    you were in Hallandale but then you moved to freezing cold Michigan? What gives? Oh wait...I know, is this because everyone in Hallandale drives 5mph and go to dinner at 4:30pm?

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    i worked at that publix across diplomat mall too. was a bag boy 20 yrs ago.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y

    I've been to that Publix when I lived on Three Island Drive for a year.

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    12y

    Another update.

    After I pulled out of the deal, I took my vacation, thought about it, went to the city and did some more research and think I have a better handle on what work is required and quantified my risks.

    I waited another week and saw they had another price reduction.

    So I called up LA and asked if she would entertain another offer pricing in the added issues. She says couldn't hurt.

    So I turned in another offer, 10K lower than my previously submitted offer, and Fannie Mae accepted this time within 3 days.

    So the ball is rolling again.

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    Nice, you got to go on vacation and get the property at a LOWER price. Good job negotiating with FannieMae. Sometimes I put offers on homes on the market 90+ days and afterwards it goes multiple offer. It is so shady, I am glad you were not apart of that. Let us know how you do on this property and getting those liens off!

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