THE REO MYTH !!!

THE REO MYTH !!!

Appraiser · BURBANK, CA · Member since 2008 · 18 posts · 0 votes

This message is for investors in CA, NV or AZ. I am a licensed broker and certified appraiser. How many of you are profiting form investing in REO properties? I can honestly tell you that the myth the gurus are spreading around that you can purchase REO properties at 50-75% of after repairs value is just as much a myth and as rare as hitting the lottery in California specially. I am not talking about states like Kansas, Arkansas or other areas where I see investors posting that they picked up a foreclosure or short sale for $15,000 that was worth $40,000 and after rehab and closing costs they make $5,000-$10,000 after three months of time. Those numbers do not fly in most states.

In my experience and after submitting approximate 50 offers in March alone on REO inventory, the lenders after they acquire the property are not willing to sell at a great discount even after 100-200 days on market. They just gradually follow the market decline until the property sells to a owner occupant at 90-95% discount which for us investors is nothing. I mean think about it, once a lender acquires the property they have it listed with an agent, which most of the time lists the property at or close to market and reduces every 30 days a little to sell. If you were the bank, wouldn't you want the maximum price attainable in the current market give or take 5-10%. I think you would have a better chance of purchasing below market if you concentrated on regular sellers since there is some desperation or emotion involved. Does anyone from Ca. agree or have a different experience?

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  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    18y

    Mark -
    I appreciate your message. I also appreciate that you were respectful to me when I tried to cool things down. There is no reason for anyone to get nasty, whatsoever. Keep cool from here on in though, ok?

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 15 votes
    18y

    Admin...Can we please get an emoticon eating popcorn!

    This is a classic thread of someone who loves to argue, and feels they have something to prove. His (Rick's) case was valid, but only for his particular experiences. He had a huge mental block or disconnect somewhere.

    I wanted to clear up why I was agreeing with Rick at one point during this thread. I was confusing ARV with FMV. As a lender, ARV is somthing that I forgot about over the past year or so. I was thinking FLFlipper was talking about the Fair Market Value, which is the value as is in it's present market conditions.

    For instance. If you take a $500K (FMV) property in CA that is habitable but needs updates and there are 10 comps around it in the same condition listed at $500K, I doubt that the bank is going to sell it @ $250K w/in the 1st 365 days. They may list it @ $450K so it is the lowest, but time will be the biggest factor after that. Typical discounts would be 5% every 90 days. This is my experience, and limited at best.

  • Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2008 · 44 posts · 15 votes
    18y

    Man, I missed it!

    What a great ignorant debate!

    I am in FL. In Hollwood land is scarce so to determain the value of land I simply use the Tax records and check out the assesed value. This method might be flawed but it helps me analyze deals. Using this method I am finding 50% LTV properties down here LISTED.

    I found a 1 bedroom Single Family Home on a 11,000 sq ft lot listed at $56,000. It was in a good neighborhood on a street with a few 7 and 8 thousand sq ft homes. To me thats a Mansion. This house was TOTALLY rehabbed. Missing just the Kitchen Applainces and Washer and Dryer. New A/C, New roof, New Bathroom, new cabinetry, new floors, new exterior paint. The Broward county assesed value for the land was $144 K. The house would easily rent for $1000 a month, if not more. To me this was buying at 38%. It was listed for 1 day, and recieved multiple cash offers. Unfortanetly, I was not the fastest gun, so I did not get it, but I am in the heart of South Florida, and if someone could by a a 1/4 acre of residential land down here for $56,000 they would jump on it. To throw in a house...THATS A DEAL. And no one had to negotiate the deal. It was listed at that price. Just applainces, and the bedroom needed the carpet layed, but it was already there.

    I hope RICK is still reading.

    I found another duplex, rental income = minimum $2000/m for the property, needs about $8000 worth of repairs, asking price was $73,000.
    Land on that one was assessed at $116,000

    I dont' know about CA, I have heard there a properties in Michigan selling at 20% LTV also, there was actually a new report on CNN about it. A street that was full of Million dollar houses, 6000 sq ft homes, aren't even selling. they are listed below $100 K now. still no sales.

    Just wanted to add my .02 cents, FLFlipper is telling the truth.

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 15 votes
    18y

    MI is BAAADDDDD right now. Our bulk MI sale went for 6 cents on the dollar :mrgreen:

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2008 · 137 posts · 2 votes
    18y

    (Experienced) Investors
    That was some HOT topic and I was happy to hear that I can get REOs at 50 cents on the Dollar. One of my friend said it may not be possible but I did not want to give up and most of all, Flipper, misiek and the like have given me enough confidence on this one!! Yahoo!!!

    Well, I heard one of your team member talk about MI. Can anyone help me find properties there? I would be interested to buy one... I also heard someone invest in TX. Would be great if you could help me on that one too?

    Apparently, I am a newbie and have invested in NONE! Flipper and Josh know that already... ;-). anyways, I have invested my TIME for the past 1 1/2 years though and I am really focused to invest in REOs and only if it gives me a $1 for every $0.50 cents I spend and not make me put down a lot on the down payment! I only want to Buy and Hold and looking for a Positive cash flow in the 1st 5 houses I invest and may be later go for appreciation (and/or both). BTW, I live in Concord, CA and work on the mainframe computers as a Systems Programmer that has got nothing to do with Real Estate and everything to do with the "Idiot Box" :-) Jus kiddin.

    Your experience is much appreciated. Looking forward to hear from you.

    Cheers
    Ram Chandrasekaran
    [email protected]

  • Real Estate Investor · Harrisburg, PA · Member since 2008 · 716 posts · 41 votes
    18y

    I have been more busy lately than I normally am so I toltally missed this thread as it unfolded.

    I found it enjoyable and educational. Thanks for hanging in and posting your thoughts. Sometimes a 'back and forth' really helps the reader's mental juices to flow.

    Thanks to all.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Little Town, OK · Member since 2008 · 688 posts · 21 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "ROYALT":
    Admin...Can we please get an emoticon eating popcorn!

    http://www.clipartof.com/gallery/emoticons/popcorn.html

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    18y

    Ok . . we added the popcorn smiley along with a few other fun ones.

    Lets celebrate! :boogie:

  • Real Estate Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2008 · 30 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    Informative AND amusing topic--wish I had more time to read up around here!

    Just to chime in, my partner and I do bulk deals and we're also with another company that sells 'em onesy-twosy (not related to bulk).

    We're getting some amazing values in MI on the bulk side. We're getting rehabs at 5-15%. Percent of what though, market value? There doesn't seem to be a real market value, all we know is the price is low enough to incentivize investors and cash flow when they're rented.

    That 2nd company I mentioned that buys and sells REOs individually, we do have some luck. We work in CA and do occasionally see property available in the mid 60s to high 70s. Those are pretty uncommon. They're given to us by brokers working with banks, not the banks themselves. But we have a LARGE investor list, and when the discount is that good we generally find a buyer within a few hours, no exaggeration.

    I'm still real green, but it's out there, it's not all chasing bigfoot. Sure feels like it sometimes though.

    (Also, props on the new smilies! :zzz: )

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2008 · 137 posts · 2 votes
    18y

    Thanks much, James. We can meet this weekend - preferably Saturday evening or Sunday if that is OK with you. I will confirm tomorrow on time day and venue... Will find a good place to have Green Tea Latte!! I dont drink COFFEE... Too much Caffeine!! LOL. Jus kiddin...

    Hope to see you soon. BTW, I am currently in Buffalo, NY and will be back home tomorrow night. Well, I have to travel to NY to work on those MAINFRAMES!! haha...

    Cheers
    Ram Chandrasekaran

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 15 votes
    18y

    :drool: Sorry, this one is my favorite.

    I liquidate on a onesy twosy basis, if anyone is interested in getting good deals on non-bulk REOs, but thats a whole nother post in the making deals forum.

    Going back to value...such a touchy subject...everyone puts their own value on RE. I agree with Dr.John on MI. You can pick up some habitable, decent properties in MI for Under $20K. How can you not cash flow?

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2008 · 137 posts · 2 votes
    18y

    Team
    Sorry to ask you the same question twice. Anyone Investing in MI on the REOs and things like that Super Deals, please help. You will see my 'About me' in one of the previous replies from me! ;-)

    Cheers!

  • Residential Lender · Salem, MA · Member since 2008 · 82 posts · 1 vote
    18y
    Originally posted by "**********":

    John, you really need to e-mail me!! I can help you in N cal with good product. I have some 60% deals.

    RAM- E-mail me tomorrow my friend. Also if you really want MI or IA or MO CHEAP cash flow deal, I have those. I actually am JV partner on turn key cash flow portfolios at 200-500k. My partner hold bulk assets in excess of 300 homes in Flyover territory. Most are pre rehab phaze. I JV on the rehabs and we sell them in porfolios. At present I am into properties in IA and MO, and have an 2 associates who have MI properties.

    Avg rehabbed and rented home is 30-50k and rents are 500-800.
    Hint- I can get ya pre rehabbed for 5k -15K a door, but long distance rehab is RISKY! :wowie: :popcorn: :worship: :boogie: :eyes:

    OO'p sorry, had to let off some steam!

    [size=24]Mr. Dorkin, THANKS for the new Emocons!![/size]

    Call You tomorrow dude!

    does anything like that exist in MA? 5-15k per door seems very low for this area, but comparable numbers?

  • Residential Lender · Salem, MA · Member since 2008 · 82 posts · 1 vote
    18y

    gratzi, but those are just normal listings. is that where you get most your properties? im still looking to find these things before they hit the market.

  • Residential Lender · Salem, MA · Member since 2008 · 82 posts · 1 vote
    18y

    ahh. thank you. i do get it.

    i dont know that MA is the best state to invest in either, except that per unit rents are significantly higher then most states. there are some 3 and 4 units listed for 120-140 up here that would make great money.

    i do have MLS access, so i will keep looking there. thank you

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Long Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 432 posts · 63 votes
    18y

    I'm in Southern CA and I wonder if you can get 50 cents on the dollar REOs (maybe in Riverside or San Bernadino counties) BUT I have seen some REO properties get listed and go pending on the same day at incredible below-market prices yet mysteriously they don't close for 2 months. I had a buyer make a full-price offer on one of these listings the day it hit the market but supposedly someone beat us by an hour. Hummmm....I swear the agent never told the bank about our offer, or any offers except for his buyer's, which he presented weeks after the MLS listing--it closed 10% below the list price. Some banks are stupid, although I don't know how an asset manager would ever know whether there are offers not being presented.

    Cash flow in CA...for me, if I can buy a property for 10% down and immediately rent it without much rehab and cover PITI plus maintenance I'm happy. There are such properties in So.Cal in good areas, but not too many. Since I live here it is easy for me to be my own property manager.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Little Town, OK · Member since 2008 · 688 posts · 21 votes
    18y

    Here's what's missing in the thought process,

    We took an offer to a higher up (at a lender) to buy all their REO. They were thrilled and values we offered were "above" the levels they expected to get,

    We were introduced to the regional asset mgrs. to start some offerings and get current lists.

    The regionals were and still are reluctant to release the product.....because then there will be no more job,

    I'm dead serious..... :crazed:

  • Residential Lender · Salem, MA · Member since 2008 · 82 posts · 1 vote
    18y
    Originally posted by "Oklahoma1":
    Here's what's missing in the thought process,

    We took an offer to a higher up (at a lender) to buy all their REO. They were thrilled and values we offered were "above" the levels they expected to get,

    We were introduced to the regional asset mgrs. to start some offerings and get current lists.

    The regionals were and still are reluctant to release the product.....because then there will be no more job,

    I'm dead serious..... :crazed:

    i wonder what the board of directors, or share holders would think of that? thats not good business.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Little Town, OK · Member since 2008 · 688 posts · 21 votes
    18y

    It's all about fear Andrew,

    It's a "What's next moment"

    People seem afraid to allow for change? Mortgages, lenders, and all the positions surrounding them are being squeezed and I seriously understand the mind set,

    It's sad to see the devestation though

  • Residential Lender · Salem, MA · Member since 2008 · 82 posts · 1 vote
    18y

    there will be more. they will have more houses to deal with.

    i see this whole thing from another angle as someone who is in the mortgage business. 40 apps in NH over the last couple weeks, and only 4 apps worth working on. who knows if theyll be loans or not.

    its not right to sand bag these REOs like many of the banks are doing. the market needs to move along. that will only happen when the banks and their staffs get serious about all this. i dont know that they are 100% on board with all this yet. because wall st is involved, its scary because wall st sees things that they havent taken a loss until they sell. if they dont sell, everything is all good.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Little Town, OK · Member since 2008 · 688 posts · 21 votes
    18y

    If they sell they become "insolvent" and there's no capital to replace the loss, (bye bye bank)

    You mentioned the squeeze on UW's from the lenders that are left

    Bear Sterns ring a bell.....? Confidence and liquidity can close doors pretty quick these days,

    On originations,

    Accredited rolled out a 75% SISE program last week.....so there's some hope to help.......but it's way too little and way too late

  • Doylestown, PA · Member since 2008 · 50 posts · 0 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "Oklahoma1":
    Rick,

    You're way off....unless you're a onesy twosy buyer

    We're seeing MI in the 20's (current BPO)

    We start "before" DD at upper 50's in CA, NV, NY, TX, AZ ad nauseum. Trades are closing along the mid to upper 40's (same valuation methods). If....and that's a HUGE if the properties were somehow not in need of "any rehab" (impossible) we would undertake a 60's valuation

    You two seem to have something going on so I'll bow out now,

    Best wishes

    I'm trying to ascertain the reality of REO's and even bulk REO's, so I thought that posting here regarding the "myth" would be a good place to start. I have partnered with 2 other people, one of whom has more experience in this area and has particular interest in CA REO's.

    My initial experience has been that the 60 cent and lower REO, while discussed on other web sites by so many, is as elusive as the proverbial Loch Ness monster -- everyone talks about it, but nobody actually has it when push comes to shove, unless I want builder's closeouts on condos in FL or houses in Detroit.

    Several of you on this site seem experienced and successful in this area, and your post in particular caught my eye. So I have to ask the question, even though I see the figures but fear perhaps I am missing some point here -- it is possible to get REO's in CA, NV, and AZ in the 60 cent and less range on a consistent basis? I understand, of course, that this does not come without networking and making connections and obtaining the proper knowledge. I just need to know that there is real light at the end of the tunnel.

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 15 votes
    18y
    Originally posted by "pabizman":

    it is possible to get REO's in CA, NV, and AZ in the 60 cent and less range on a consistent basis? I understand, of course, that this does not come without networking and making connections and obtaining the proper knowledge. I just need to know that there is real light at the end of the tunnel.

    It is possible if you are looking for major rehab SFRs or light rehabs in $$$ million bulk range. I doubt you will find move in ready properties @ 60 cents on the dollar in those areas unless you are buying big. Also, That 60 cents that most broker's are talking about is probably not based on current valuations, but based on old BPOs or even worse, origination appraisals.

  • Doylestown, PA · Member since 2008 · 50 posts · 0 votes
    18y

    Looking at 10m to 100m. From what I see, the smaller, the better -- 10m to 40m seems more likely to close.

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