Short Sale Flipping "Illegal"??
Property Manager · Las Vegas · Member since 2011 · 21 posts · 6 votes
I met with a realtor today who said she has years and years of experience in short sales and explained to her when I had been in investing years ago, I basically was flipping houses for quick cash. I would get a home under contract, find a buyer, simo close and get a check.
She told me this is ILLEGAL??? I mean, I was dumbfounded. I wanted to get back into flipping but take advantage of the short sales we have here in the Las Vegas market. can anyone shed some light on this?
Is there an addendum that generally comes with short sales that indicates what is and what isn't expected of the buyer? Are there selling restrictions that are introduced by the lender as part of the contract?
The reason I ask is that it's not clear where the concern is about buying a short sale and then reselling it?
Presumably, a lender wouldn't have an issue with me buying a short sale, holding it for 30 years and then reselling it. And I don't imagine a lender would have a problem with me holding it for 1 year and reselling it. Even 3 months probably wouldn't draw any questions. But, if 3 months isn't against any implicit or explicit rules, why would a one month hold, or a one week hold, or a one day hold, or even a one hour hold be "against the rules?"
Obviously, I'm missing something here, but I don't know what it is (I've never closed on the purchase of a short sale before)...
Minna,
So you are saying you would let your sellers house sit on the market inching ever closer to foreclosure rather than accept an offer from an investor.
I think you miss understand, I for one go in with intention of buying but as you know since you "close more s/s than any other investor in the state"(not hard to do @100% of BPO). Buyer often flake out not wanting to wait months for approval. Investors do not flake out but we want to be compensated for it.
Also from your blog
"A CT Bank of America short sale success with FULL DEBT FORGIVENESS!
Bank of America has always been very stubborn about retaining their right to pursue a deficiency in their short sale approval letters. To my surprise, my most recent Bank of America short sale approval letter came with new language, completely releasing my client of all future liability for the debt.
Unfortunately, soon after the buyer flaked out and we had to secure another buyer and get a new approval. This time, the approval letter read the same way as the old Bank of America letters, with Bank of America retaining their right to pursue the deficiency once again.
BUT - THE THIRD TIME WAS THE CHARM. Soon after the second approval, the sale fell apart again for a major inspection issue. A new price for the property was renegotiated, and back we went for our third and final approval.
After a chat with the negotiator, she agreed to once again issue the full debt forgiveness letter releasing my client from all future liability for the remaining debt. Soon after the sale closed and my seller was able to move on with her life with full confidence her struggles with Bank of America were over for good. Hallelujah! It’s about time, Bank of America!"
Deal fell apart 3 times while your client kept getting closer to foreclosure. The day is going to come (if it hasn't already) that the bank is not going to give you an extension and move forward with the foreclosure. Then my dear when your client finds out you did not take a cash offer from an investor because you chose what you thought was the "strongest buyer" and you view of Ethical would not allow you to present the offer.
Furthermore
Seems to me you are negotiating on behalf of the seller I believe this is now illegal for you to do.
If you think this is not setting you up for liability.
Maryann, i couldn't let you have all the fun :mrgreen:
J Scott
you are correct the big issue is when there is already a buyer at 1 price but an agent submits a lower offer with intent to sale it to the higher offer after getting a discounted price for them or their partner in CRIME.
There is nothing illegal or unethical about putting a discounted offer on a DISTRESSED home and then marketing the home while in negotiations (3-6 months) with the bank.
Was just on a call the other night with Ron Ballard about this very thing. I have a copy of his power point in PDF if you would like. I have sent an email to his office for permission to post it here in "Fileplace"
Agent like Minna just don't want to work these deals in this fashion and that's ok, but to lump all investors and agents who do as unethical and fraudulent is irresponsible.
It was fine when they where pumping prices up but now investors are making money and commissions are getting discounted, feathers are getting ruffled.
I've been a bit lax in watching BP for a while and missed this one until today. I have had this discussion many times with Realtors. Some get the difference between SS fraud and SS buy & sell done correctly (I hate the word "Flip"). Some Realtors understand, but are hung up on the assumption that only they can work in the seller's interest. I have also had an excellent phone discussion with the Michigan Association Of Realtors Attorney. I was concerned with a podcast of a discussion of the Connecticut case that implied that all short sale flips were illegal. I reviewed our process with him and he agreed that if we received any backlash from Realtors, that he would review our documents and disclosures on a specific file and allow us to clear our process. He said that it appeared that we were doing it correctly! We work with excellent, ethical & successful Realtors all over the country (including in our own back yard where we are Realtors and value our reputations very much). Our Title company recommends our services to Realtors that are not comfortable with the SS process. We also work with Realtors that have completed many short sales, but don't like that side of the process and want to concentrate their efforts in listing, marketing & selling real estate.
Minna, Richard hit on the best reason to work with an ethical, experienced investor. We will make the offer and while the SS is negotiated, we stick with it. It may take a couple of end buyers backing out, but in almost all cases, an end buyer can be found that will close the sale. If there is not enough "spread" for a back to back, we will step out of the way and close the sale directly with the end buyer. We see houses on the MLS noted as potential short sales that are priced well above market. They sit & sit with no offers until the lender finally forecloses. It is much better to take our offer, make price reductions as the negotiations proceed, until the lender agrees on a payoff and a buyer agrees on a sales price. Close the sale and every one wins.
Mike Welch, thanks for the link. The gist of the Connecticut, Natera / McElaney case was that the fraud was in FIRST having a higher offer, then conspiring to submit a lower offer and split the profits. Ron Ballard just had another webinar (an updated version of his other ones on SS Fraud) that goes into detail on this case as well the legality issues. You can find him at CaliforniaShortSaleLawyer.com and get the PDF of his presentation.
There are three things that are argued that I can't ever seem to win on...Religion, Politics & the issue of SS Flips! All I can do is express my views as an Investor and Realtor for the last one and try to be somewhere in the "middle" for the other two!
Bill
MaryAnn - Im so flattered you've taken such an interest in my work. I guess you spent quite a bit of time on my blog. Good for you.
And no, it is also not illegal for me to negotiate shorts.
FYI - I have NEVER had an SS go to foreclosure because I couldnt sell it or it sat on market. I price right. Problem solved.
There is ALWAYS a price that gets it done.
And FYI - that particular deal went to a CASH buyer (on the low side). I really had to fight to get that one done (as I frequently do). They may have very well been an investor (not my client so who knows) BUT THEY CLOSED. THEMSELVES. I didnt have to worry about them trying to find a buyer.
SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
I dont get to accept offers for my clients, i just advise them. I would never advise against selling to an investor. Why would I? I want to sell homes.
But I will always advise against selling to anyone that needs to go find yet another buyer in order to actually close.
You sure hold a lot of ridiculous stereotypes about how "all" realtors handle short sales.
Anyway - this thread has gone way off subject.
Point is short sale flips are not illegal. But theres a lot of great reasons youll have trouble finding a good realtor to get involved with an SS flip. That was the point..originally.
Best of luck with your SS flipping careers all!
Just dont call on my listings..not interested..LOFL
Ummmm...Minna, I didn't read your blog. I think you meant to reply to Richard who did. I wanted to jump on and respond yesterday but I was far too busy, but good to see that some seasoned pros came on to explain more.
Yes the thread is about the legality of a short sale flip. I think we have all agreed it's legal.
It is NOT unethical to buy low and sell high either. It is NOT unethical to represent a homeowner in a short sale flip...I question whether it's ethical to be a dual agent, however in my state it's perfectly legal to be a dual agent as well.
I think you should look in the mirror when you say *I* have stereotypes regarding Realtors. I'm not the one saying Realtors involved in short sale flips are UNethical. You paint with a WIDE brush when you say something like that.
I'm busy because most of my referrals come from REALTORS. There are plenty of Realtors who do not have issues working with short sale flip investors. I am not a Realtor but honestly I take offense to the fact you would call any Realtor I work with unethical.
Think of it this way..would you have a problem if I bought and sold the same property and made $15000 profit if I did it over a period of a year? How about 6 months? HOw about 3 months? People seem to have NO issue if the property is bought and sold months or years later, but the minute it is bought and sold within a day, people seem to be up in arms. Stocks and bonds are sold within a day and it's a highly regulated market.
What is it that you find unethical if everything is disclosed to all parties?
Oh you're right that was Richard, not you. My apologies.
If its not clear to you what I find unethical by now, well so be it.
You also still havent explained what value you bring to any transaction.
Whatever - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Ummmm...Minna, I didn't read your blog. I think you meant to reply to Richard who did. I wanted to jump on and respond yesterday but I was far too busy, but good to see that some seasoned pros came on to explain more.
Yes the thread is about the legality of a short sale flip. I think we have all agreed it's legal.
It is NOT unethical to buy low and sell high either. It is NOT unethical to represent a homeowner in a short sale flip...I question whether it's ethical to be a dual agent, however in my state it's perfectly legal to be a dual agent as well.
I think you should look in the mirror when you say *I* have stereotypes regarding Realtors. I'm not the one saying Realtors involved in short sale flips are UNethical. You paint with a WIDE brush when you say something like that.
I'm busy because most of my referrals come from REALTORS. There are plenty of Realtors who do not have issues working with short sale flip investors. I am not a Realtor but honestly I take offense to the fact you would call any Realtor I work with unethical.
Think of it this way..would you have a problem if I bought and sold the same property and made $15000 profit if I did it over a period of a year? How about 6 months? HOw about 3 months? People seem to have NO issue if the property is bought and sold months or years later, but the minute it is bought and sold within a day, people seem to be up in arms. Stocks and bonds are sold within a day and it's a highly regulated market.
What is it that you find unethical if everything is disclosed to all parties?
Yes I visited your blog.
Lotta blowing your own horn going on over there as well
The value we bring is cold hard CASH to the table on DAY#1!
It is not your place to question where that money is coming from nor how long I choose to own the property. I could buy it and strike a match to it just to feel warm and fuzzy. Why should you care you just made 6% for entering some info in some software, taking some pictures and sitting back waiting for the phone to ring. In all reality to me the question is what value does the listing agent bring. Hell I can take some pictures enter it in postlets dot com put it on craigstlist and have it under contract in a matter of hours if the price is right. Hell second thought,if the price is really right just turn it over to my buyers list and never have to advertise at all.
What Value does the listing agent bring?
LETS TAKE A VOTE
What do you think a home owner in foreclosure wants to here more
Choice #1 I have cash and I want to buy your home.
Choice #3 I have a camera, I got all these cute letters by my name, I can list your house for 6% and I will let you know when a buyer calls, oh and by the way keep making those payments on that house your about to loose because the bank wants you to.
Give me a FREAKN break
Have a nice 4th All
Richard! Relax! I know your frustration in convincing Realtors such as Minna that there is really value added when an investor makes an offer, negotiations are started immediately, properties are priced right, an end buyer is located (maybe a couple of them!) and the sale closes, saving the homeowner from foreclosure. When fully disclosed and following all guidelines of the approval letter, it is perfectly legal, ethical and hopefully profitable.
The same holds true when an experienced, competent Realtor lists a short sale. They market, list at the correct price for the market, locate a buyer and negotiate the short sale. I know this because I am a Realtor and have been a Broker for almost 30 years! I don't list the short sales that we work with. We use Realtors with the ability and tools to market the property in the best possible way to get it sold as quickly as possible. It is a lot more than a few pictures and an MLS presence! We choose how to best spend our resources and efforts just as the Realtors that use us, make that same choice.
Putting all Realtors in the same basket is as bad as putting all Investors in the same basket! The good ones are invaluable to the clients and real estate market. The others....well, we have all had to deal with them and try our best to not be associated with them.
Where I get frustrated, is in trying to convince Realtors like Minna that investors can bring value to the transaction and that when the many great Realtors out there that don't want to do more than list, market and sell real estate use us to facilitate a short sale....that's ok! It does not mean that they are not good Realtors or that they are not working in the best interest of their clients. On the contrary, by working with an experience negotiator and investor rather than working in an arena that they are not experts in, they are doing the best for their clients!
I also spend a lot of BP Forum time trying to convince Investors that a good Realtor is worth their weight in gold (or at least $$ profits)!
There is more than one way to "skin a cat" and to close a short sale and avoid a foreclosure! And there is room in the market for the different approaches. There should also be "tolerance" for the way that other's reach the same goal.
Yes, everyone have a great 4TH of July weekend!
Bill
Bill,
I agree with you 110%.
I work with agent that "get it"
Its not that Minna chooses not to work with investor its the fact that she is coming in the "short sale investor" forum with her head so far up her self righteous ASSet that she will not even hear the fireworks this 4th. For the most part I think she is knowledgeable and gives good advice here at BP. (Most of the Time). I am tired of having to defend myself and other investors. Today I read in the NC RE commission bulletin (yes Minna I can even read :}) a whole section on S/S dribble from the legal dept(I use this term loosely)
http://www.ncrec.gov/publications-bulletin/BulletinMay2011.pdf
Check out page 5 sec7 where the legal team states that agent/brokers are obligated to commit tortuous interference with a binding contract. Translation must submit all subsequent offers to the lender. I cant wait to sue some agent over this! Why the hell would I even put an offer in, negotiate it out for 6 months to have some jerk weed come in at the 9th hour with a higher offer. I'll stick to doing REO rehabs. WTF
And Bill
This is Relaxed, I start to turn green when I'm angry :}
HAPPY 4th every one! God Bless America & Capitalism!
Richard, I read that post. NO WHERE does the author show any LEGAL basis and come to find out, she's a lawyer. Every Realtor (pro short sale investor or not) was up in arms about this post because EVERYONE knows you only submit one offer at a time.
The author of that "opinion" was never heard from again. She could never give a source of how she knew the FBI was "investigating"...blah blah.
Other lawyers that read it scoffed.
It's pretty sad what crap you can post on the internet to stir the pot.
Hi Ashley,
Please take note this is Not a simultaneous closing. This is a common misunderstanding for most
Realtors because mainly not taking the time to seek the Full knowledge of these transactions.
~Don’t miss out on such an awesome opportunity. “Back To Back closings” (correct term) ALLOWED! WHY? because Each closing is:
FULLY FUNDED and INDEPENDENT transaction using our own money
FULLY DISCLOSED TO ALL LENDERS and filed at the county court.
A “simultaneous closing” is not allowed, because of the use of someone else’s money. [SOLICITATION REMOVED]
I have bought and sold a wide range of different things over the years.. been active on eBay, scouring thrift stores and garage sales for items to "flip" for profit. Is that unscrupulous? NO. Should I say to each person unloading their junk, "Did you know this is worth a lot more money, and I'm going to take it and resell it for more?" Again, it seems to me the answer is no.
So why then should we be so frowned upon when taking it to the next level, that of course being real estate? I'm sure banks realize that fixed up properties in good neighborhoods would sell for more than they are currently asking, but that isn't quite their business right? They are in the business of loaning money and that's it. They seem to be doing quite well on their own, or should I say even better with all our hard earned bailout money paving their way to continued erasure of the American middle class.
If anything, investors are helping EVERYBODY'S values go up as neighborhoods are revitalized while we actually make a living.
I read every single reply and I must say that know one really answered Minna's question in "what value does the investor bring" in a a-b-c close.
I have over a 100 ss in my office and it's all I do every single day and my focus and goal is to save my community and market from foreclosure. So in staying true to my mission and commitment what service am I providing buy having a same day flip transaction?
A couple were very quick to mention they bring cash or a sale or save the homeowner from foreclosure however know one shot back to the fact that a great short sale agent can get that done themselves with an end buyer.
For a great listing agent to take a listing they will commit to marketing, processing, negotiating and ultimately getting an approval. Why would they want to do all of that work that a short entails with an offer that's 60c on the dollar only for A.the lender counters to a price you will walk from B. They have to reinitiate the whole file once you bail C. Risk the seller getting hit with a larger deficiency/prom/cash contribution that I highly doubt you'll contribute to. All when they could have priced it right, marketed it effectively and potentially avoided all that mess.
I actually don't want an offer on the 1 st day. I start real high and graduallydrop my price so that I can show I tried my best to get as much money for the hose as possible. I send in my listing history and once I drop to a place that commodes offers I know I've hit market value which is what now can convey to the lender.
Don't get me wrong I love the art of investing and investors who see a world where others can't however I just don't agree with this one and it seems to only make sense for 1 group everyone else gets a little less.
Eric, no one is asking you to agree to working with investors. The original question was "Is it legal?" The answer is yes.
We bring the same value that ANY buyer brings!! We are clearing the GLUT of homes on the market. We are moving inventory. According to an Econohomes study, most distressed property investors make less than $100,000 a year. We are acquiring, flipping, rehabilitating, renting, and reselling the tens of thousands of distressed properties in the market.
Let me tell you about a property I just closed. We negotiated it for six months. It had two mortgage liens, an undischarged note, a mechanics lien, a credit card lien, an incorrect assignment, and a prior undischarged mortgage resulting in the old mortgage being in first position.
Between my lawyer and I we negotiated ALL the payoffs and cleared title. It took 2.5 months to do. It was a complete juggling act. The seller didn't have the means to do the above and no buyer would put that amount of up front money to work on a property they weren't gauranteed to own. We came to the table with $7800 for the second lien holder who demanded that much to release. We got a FULL release from everyone. The seller was able to move on and have NOTHING trailing behind him. The listing agent made $22,000 for marketing the property, letting in BPO agents, etc., We made $12,800 for our 6 months of efforts.
People have this perception of short sale flip investors that we're out here and our only concern is to make a buck, but there are a LOT of us who genuinely care about these sellers and want them to walk away more than satisfied with what we've done. The reason I keep getting repeat business is sellers tell other sellers, and agents tell other agents. Our agents make MORE money with us than selling it to Joe Shmo. They see the value in what we are doing.
So there is PLENTY of value that I bring to the table. Every home sold is value that that investor just brought to that local market.
Maryann ICANN respect what you and and obviously your passion in doing it. As I said I love the art of investing and love that people see oppotunity where others don't.
I know that the basis of this post was whether or not it's legal and I know that there are good things that come from certain investors that benefit our market. However my response was in where the conversation went off with Minna and others (you included) and in seeing it from our perspective as short sale pro's.
I commend you for all that hard work and sticking in the deal and I agree on certain deals where rehab work would not be done by anyone else other than someone with an investors mindset and capabilities to get the job done helps. However what about homes where investors are just fishing for the big discount and the flip, the homes that have to be reversed staged to try to get a low ball offer accepted, processed and negotiated all so someone can get a hefty discount and flip it the same day?
I still don't see where the value is for the B person in this. I can only speak for my market but literally I can almost put any listing on the market today and will have a multiple bid situation this weekend. If I can do that and get a homeowner who will pay market value and be my end buyer why the need for all of the other stuff? Now let's see in the case the house is not in condition to be sold to an end buyer who can't qualify for FHA or conventional financing due to the condition then absolutely you shoot for a discount and work with an investor to do all the greT things you mentioned you would do.
As a short sale guy I have multiple deals and can send you the HUDS where I negotiate and KEEP and willing and able end homebuyer all the while negotiating stupid water softener liens....lol, HOA's who are stubborn, 1st, 2nds, child support judgements and a host of everything else to get to the finish line.
It's what I do and at the end of the day the results are just as you said.....seller avoids foreclosure, buyer get s great home, bank moves on.
So I can't Agree that you guys with this flip same day technique are always bringing value to the market. It just isn't so!
Eric, first reverse staging is FRAUD. No investor in my area that I know would consider such a thing. Please respect that the bazillion things you've heard online or in the news may NOT be what REAL solid short sale investors are doing.
There is NO such thing as a lowball offer. It's not possible. Again, good short sale investors know that a bank will only take a % of the BPO price, so a $300,000 home may be able to be purchased at $240,000 because the lender allowed 80% of the BPO. It's simple math. Lenders aren't going to allow a $150,000 purchase of a home with a market value of $300,000. It doesn't work that way. Trust me, we'd LOVE to get a home for $150,000 but good investors know banks limits and know they will only take a certain % off the BPO price. Let me ask you. If Sue and Joe Smith bought the above home for $240,000 is there a difference? Is there a difference if I buy it or someone else? The only difference is I'm likely putting WAY more work into the sale that Sue and Joe Smith. I get busy with title work, ordering my appraisal, my inspection, getting any repair estimate, (if needed) and I get on the phone with the lender and get to work. We are coordinating all this. We bring $$ to get the deal closed.
My agents make 7% on the highest sale price. So if I buy it for $240,000 and sell it for $265,000, they get 7% on that $265,000. Now, you can do the work, exclude me, and bring in Joe and Sue who may buy it from you at $265,000 and make 4% commission if it's BOA or 5% from someone else if your lucky. You can negotiate the 5 different liens youself. That's totally up to you. I bring the same value any buyer or decent agent does to the table as I'm doing 1/2 to 3/4's of the work.
You said you price your homes high in a previous post, then you wrote you put them on the market and in the same weekend get multiple bids. Now it can't be both Eric. To get multiple bids you're pricing a house agressively, OR you can price it high and do gradual price reductions. I don't have an issue with either, but your fiduciary responsibility isn't to the lender it's to the seller. So getting the most money for the lender and keeping the home on the market longer while the homeowner goes further into debt, doesn't really help.
Eric we too have negotiated multiple liens. You're preaching to the choir here. If that's what you do then great. The agents we work with would rather spend their time selling property, getting more listings, helping more buyers, than on the phone negotiating. It's NOT for every agent out there. I get that. Most agents that are control freaks are NEVER going to work well with an investor.
We bring the SAME VALUE that you do because we are doing the work. We are clearing the glut of homes out of the market, negotiating multiple lien holders, clearing encumbrances, getting full releases. Do you feel you bring value to the seller? I would imagine you do. I'm doing the same thing as you, so I bring the same value PLUS I can buy the property, give the local economy a boost by putting Joe and Suzie Smith in a house they are going to stay in for years, pay taxes on, fix up, put money into the local community AND I pay more commission in the end.
We bring LOTS of value, no matter how much it bothers you that we may buy and sell on the same day.
Its really fairly simple. The FHA and Lenders are coming down hard on three things.
1) Any attempt to mislead who owns or is selling the home
2) Any attempt to mislead who is buying the home.
3) Any attempt to mislead where ANY amount of money is coming from or going to in a real estate transaction.
Since all of these things have been fairly common in the practice of flipping, and they are now considered mortgage fraud, (which is illegal) It could appear that flipping is an illegal activity.
I don't do flipping, I rarely handle any residential transactions. But I can tell you as a realtor, we constantly get it drummed into us, that if we engage in anything that looks anything like the above, we are to run the other way, and not participate in the transaction, or we could lose our licence, be fined, or go to jail. So, when we here it again and again from the real estate commission and we get our monthly publication showing us all the names of the brokers who helped out a flipper and lost his license, we tend to pay attention.
Robert Littke, I COULD be wrong about my doubts, and sometimes I am wrong about some things but I doubt if REC is actually DISCLOSING the REASON these brokers are losing their license. Perhaps they too (those who do tell tales) should also LOSE THEIR LICENSE!
Ashley, please don't get discouraged. Many "seasoned" Realtors have no idea how to work with an investor to "flip" a short sale. Actually I think Realtors that can assist in this type of transaction are definitely in a niche of the industry. They likely have a good deal of business too because if you know how to do something that few others do, you could be in big demand for certain investors.
That said, it's perfectly legal to flip short sales. As previous J Scott said, it's all about disclosure. If you are "intentionally" trying to misrepresent anything in the transaction, you then border on fraud, but if you disclose to all parties that you intend to sell the subject property for profit, then you have done nothing fraudulent.
It's funny because the Realtors I run across that have been in the industry FOREVER do seem to be clueless about flipping and how to do it. I find newbies are much more agressive and investor friendly.
Call her back and ask her to give you the law that states flipping is illegal. That should give her something to chew on.
MaryAnn, you got me POMSL (Peeing On Myself Laughing) LoL
Flipping is not illegal. Many investor require short sale participants (buyer, seller, real estate agents and title companies) to sign a conflict of interest affidavit saying some combination of (1)they are not related to each other (2) the price is a fair market price and (3) the property will not be resold within some time period, usually 90 days. If you sign the no-quick-flip affidavit, and then flip, that is fraud only if you knew you were going to sell it that quickly when you signed the affidavit. Otherwise, it's just breach of contract.
The only possible bank fraud is in the statement about the market value. But, the exact same properly has a different value as a short sale than it does as a straight up deal. Homeowners will usually pay the highest price for a property, but they will not wait the time it takes to get a short sale approved. Most investors in same boat. I wouldn't worry about this issue on a flip. The servicing company gets an appraisal. The servicing company decides what price is acceptable for a release of the lien. Unless there is collusion between the appraiser and the buyer, there is no possibility of fraud.
A lot of agents who profess to be short sale experts really know nothing about short sales. I am an agent in Seattle and it amazes how many "short sale"experts didn't know they could pre-negotiate a FHA short sale. They take a one day class and get a Short Sale Expert acronym.