Need Advice: Drawings for Permit

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing

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Need Advice: Drawings for Permit

Eric Benzenhoefer

Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 233 posts · 39 votes

Howdy All,

I have an 11 Plex rehab project near Houston that you can read about here.

We could use some advice.

We are struggling to find an affordable solution to getting the drawings needed for our permit. Here is what I mean.

We can get good rehab-prices on the plumbing and electrical work, but often these contractors are not able or willing to do the drawings needed for the permit.

We have found contractors who will do the drawings, but they are also busy with new construction and retail remodeling. This results in a much higher price tag and we cannot afford to spend $3000-$5000 on drawings for a rehab.

It seems like we are in the middle of two well developed markets. Would someone like to advise us on where you would go from here?

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J ScottPro Member

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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

What is required for the drawings by your jurisdiction? Is it mostly cosmetic work, so the drawings just need to be to scale with the appropriate indications of what is being done (i.e., nothing structural and no engineering needed)? Or do you need engineered drawings that will require a engineering stamp?

If it's the first, you can probably do much of the work yourself and/or find an architectural student at a local college or a freelance draftsman to make it "pretty." When we do non-structural rehabs, we often just map out the space(s) in a cheap room planner application, then overlay the description of the work being done.

Obviously if you need engineering stamps or if your permit office requires detailed electrical or plumbing drawings, that's something you can't do yourself. Without knowing the scope of the project, there's no way to know if $3000-5000 is reasonable or not.

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J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y
What is required for the drawings by your jurisdiction? Is it mostly cosmetic work, so the drawings just need to be to scale with the appropriate indications of what is being done (i.e., nothing structural and no engineering needed)? Or do you need engineered drawings that will require a engineering stamp?

If it's the first, you can probably do much of the work yourself and/or find an architectural student at a local college or a freelance draftsman to make it "pretty." When we do non-structural rehabs, we often just map out the space(s) in a cheap room planner application, then overlay the description of the work being done.

Obviously if you need engineering stamps or if your permit office requires detailed electrical or plumbing drawings, that's something you can't do yourself. Without knowing the scope of the project, there's no way to know if $3000-5000 is reasonable or not.
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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
12y
If you need stamps to get the permits you might as well just hire an engineer to do the drawings and stamp them. As a buddy of mine found out the hard way having someone else do the drawings and then trying to get them stamped is difficult. Engineers are responsible for their stamps and don't want to just blindly sign off on someone else' work.

Drawing them yourself is an option if you don't need stamps.
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Eric Benzenhoefer
OP
Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 233 posts · 39 votes
12y
Here is a transcript of the 'Reasons for Rejections'

Electrical Dept.

1. Drawings are required to be signed by a state of Texas registered professional engineer or a licensed state of Texas master electrician who is registered as an electrical contractor with the state of Texas. All electrical plans designed or reviewed by the master electrician shall include the master electrician's name, master number, master's signature and be dated and signed on each page of the electrical plans.

2. Provide complete electrical plans including one line diagram with all conduit and conductor sizes with insulation types, total load with calculations, Panel schedule with arc fault, grounding, all outlets and lighting with circuitry, light fixture schedule, also show electrical panel location in the apartment.

Plumbing Dept.

1. Provide dedicated plumbing page designed by a professional engineer with current date stamp and signature or a state of Texas master plumber with name, license number, phone number, signature and date on the plans.

2. Provide complete riser diagram of any altered or new plumbing.

3. Provide detail of all types of materials and fixtures to be used.

4. Tub Faucets shall be anti-scald and pressure balanced with cut off valves.
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Jason Brown
Architect · Tell City, IN · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 3 votes
12y
J Scott is right. It does take a pretty substantial amount of time to draw up an architectural set of drawings for permitting. As he stated, it all depends on the extent and scope of worked required.
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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
12y
You're stuck. You will need a PE or master electrician for the electrical plans and a master plumber for the plumbing plans. Unlikely you'll be able to get the plans signed off if they're drawn by someone other than the one who's going to sign them.
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J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
12y
Agreed with Jon and Jason above...

I'll add that it will likely be much cheaper to have the electrician and plumber who will be doing the work also do the drawings. They will know the minimum required to get the permits, whereas an architect/PE will likely do more than the minimum (not to try to screw you, just because that's what they typically do).
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Eric Benzenhoefer
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Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 233 posts · 39 votes
12y
Just to be clear, we are not looking for anyone to blindly sign off on something.

We are trying to create a solution where everyone is doing something that they are good at, like to do, being paid appropriately, and in the end we save money.

Is there something out there similar to the business structure and an engineering firm who has one professional engineer (PE) over many PE's in training (PEit)? The ones in training do the work until it meets PE's requirements.

For example:

Options 1: Have Master trade do drawings: (PE)

40 hrs of site visit and drawing time X $60/hr = $2400

Option 2: Or can we do this?: (PE with PEit)

Master trade: 4 hrs of phone meeting, reviewing drawings/scope, faxing marked up drawings as feedback

4 hrs X $60/hr = $240

Amatur drawer: Under direction of us and Master trade, they do site visits, measurements, drawings, sends to master trade for review, collects feedback and corrections from trade until the Master trade is satisfied and signs off on it.

40 hrs X $25/hr = $1000

Total savings is $1460

Does my explanation make sense? Am overlooking something huge?

Do these amatur drawers exsist?
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Dennis Rodriguez
Wholesaler · Katy, TX · Member since 2013 · 213 posts · 109 votes
12y
@Eric Benzenhoefer you need to hire an engineering firm that can do both the electrical and plumbing design and provide signed and seal drawings. I am a PE in Texas but I don't do residential drawings. I work with underground utilities.

You can find a residential architect that can give you names to mechanical engineers and electrical engineer they use for their designs.

And just to spread some knowledge... engineers that have passed the Fundamentals of Engineering exam (the first state exam) are called E.I.T. (engineer in training). It was kinda funny the way you wrote PEit. After passing the second exam then you become a PE, licensed professional engineer and can sign/stamp drawings.

I wish you good luck!
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Kimberly T.
Investor · Colorado Springs CO · Member since 2014 · 535 posts · 253 votes
12y
I agree with Dennis, it might make the most sense to find an engineering firm that does electrical and plumbing (we usually refer to them as MEP, or mechanical-electrical-plumbing). Just look up several local MEP firms and get prices from them to do the drawings you need.

Regarding your theory about using the EIT to do the work and then the PE stamps it, well, yes, that is often how it's done - because the EIT is working for the PE. However, the PE who gives you the proposal to do the drawings for you will have already accounted for the EIT's hourly rate in their price when they give you their proposal. When I was an EIT, I had a much lower billing rate than I did as a PE, which was lower still than my billing rate now as an SE (structural engineer). When principals at the company decide what to charge for a job, they estimate the number of hours it will take for their employee to do the work, and multiply it by their hourly rate. You don't want to find an EIT who doesn't currently work for a PE, as they likely won't have enough knowledge or experience to know what to do for you (even EITs who are working for PEs don't know that much - they simply don't have the experience yet). And even if you found an EIT willing to draft the drawings on their own, I doubt you'll find a PE willing to stamp those drawings.

Hope that helps.
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Eric Benzenhoefer
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Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 233 posts · 39 votes
12y
@Kimberly T. Yes this is the direction that I would like to see the conversation go in terms of helping the BP community understand how systems work.

However, let us please use the PE/EIT example as only a parallel to what I am trying to do. As stated above, our city does not require an engineer stamp. A master electrician and master plumber stamp will do.

I understand that you will not find an EIT on their own to hire and instruct to work with a PE. But, how about a parallel role of someone who would work with a master plumber to do the plumbing drawings as described above?

Does anyone have experiences similar to this? This would most likely be other projects like us that are small commercial properties.
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Jon Holdman
Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
12y
It is very likely that a firm of any significant size will do what you are suggesting. They're going to have one or more people with the licenses. Much of the grunt work is going to be done by an apprentice or someone in training. They may have an equivalent of your $25/hour person actually doing the work, but they will be closely supervised. If you're trying to hire your own draftsman to do the site work and drawings and have them work with licensed person who will sign off on it then I think you're going to have a hard time. The licensed person is not going to sign off on someone else' work. When things go wrong, the person who signed off is the one named on the lawsuit. You're looking for a shortcut that you're not going to find.
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Kimberly T.
Investor · Colorado Springs CO · Member since 2014 · 535 posts · 253 votes
12y
@Eric Benzenhoefer I'm not familiar with master electricians or plumbers being able to sign plans for permits, so I don't know if any of them would be willing to sign plans drawn by someone else. I suppose you could ask a few. If it were me, though, I'd just look up some local MEP companies and get some prices from them. But then, that may be because I don't know how much a "master" electrician or plumber really knows about the design of the system they install. Just because someone's being doing a particular type of work for a long time, that doesn't mean they know how to design it. Being a SE myself, I've seen Tom Silva make some "design errors" on Ask This Old House - I wouldn't hire him to design my house, though he'd probably be a great contractor to build off of some plans.
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Jonathan M.
Accountant · Chicago, IL · Member since 2011 · 6 posts · 1 vote
12y
I recommend seeing if the county / city has any of the "as built" or original plans in archive. If you can take those to any architect or PE, it could reduce the amount of time they need to get an understanding of what is existing and what is going to be changed by your team.

Semi-retired architects (who are still licensed) are also great for this type of work.
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Bill S.Pro Member
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Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Eric Benzenhoefer This is what I have done. I post an ad on Craig's List. In larger areas, there are usually one or two one man shows that do this kind of work for low budget. You might be able to "assist" them if you already have the building floor plans in CAD. If they are done right then it's just a mater of adding their stuff to your digital file. You can get a weekend CAD guy to replicate the floor plan for fairly cheap so that combination might save you some money.

Really for 11 units $3-5K is not that bad of a price. I paid slightly over $1k for a drawing for a 3 unit building. Remember they are putting their license on the line and they have at least 4 years of college plus 4 years of work in the field under supervision. It's not hard, but if monkeys could do it ...
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Eric Benzenhoefer
OP
Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 233 posts · 39 votes
12y
I like your thinking. Has anyone done this with Odesk or Elance?
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Joel OwensBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
12y
This is a very interesting thread.

I am not even close to knowing a lot about this but it seems you want a more experienced person to take on liability and sign off on something for a reduced cost.

It's just simply supply and demand. I don't know why anyone would want to do such a thing.

Jonathan M. had some interesting comments. Isn't this kind of one of those things where like doing a flip on a house you are stepping over dollars to save pennies??

It just seems like so much work into getting the cost down that you lose time and ultimately more money when the outcome may not be as good as you thought.

Having said that it is good to call around. I had a deal where my buyer on a commercial deal needed a new survey. There were existing survey plans where we thought going to the existing surveyor for updating them would be cheaper.

Well I tracked down this surveyor who moved to a different company years later. He was comfortable and wanted a crazy amount in my opinion for updating the survey. I was shocked frankly but if you don't need the business I guess you can ask for crazy things and see if you get it. Instead I called around for my client and found another surveyor to do a brand new survey for 1,500 cheaper! They did a good job and turned it in fast too.

So I would say brainstorm to save money but not at a cost of an endless battle where it just makes sense to eat that cost to keep the project progressing as you can't find someone at the price you want.

Shouldn't this have been factored in with an average cost on the developer pro-forma with cost padding overruns before buying?? Not being critical it just seems like this wasn't accounted for and now you are trying to be creative to control the cost.
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Eric Benzenhoefer
OP
Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 233 posts · 39 votes
12y
Great post @Joel Owens allow me to comment to keep the conversation going the right direction.

Yes, we did not factor this into our estimate. This is why we are looking for a creative solution. We are one person away from it too.

This is from two factors.

1. The people that are an all in one service in Houston swamped. Like your posted above, when they do not need the work, they will let you know with the price tag or simply turning you down from the get go. Plus we were looking for plumbers right during the freeze in Houston. So most of the plumbers here would rather fix a broken pipe than do a drawing and scope out our project.

2.The city has increased their requirements beyond what we and our trades are used to (hence the under budgeting). Infact when we talk to a new trade and describe our project, they will argue with us that we do not need drawings for a rehab project. We say, yea, that is what we thought too. Once they get into the project and understand what is truly required, they back out or stop answering calls.

So now we are looking for a creative solution. Looking backwards, we should have spent the money upfront/talked to the city more before purchase.

"I am not even close to knowing a lot about this but it seems you want a more experienced person to take on liability and sign off on something for a reduced cost."

As explained above with the engineering firm example, we are just trying to add one more person to the team to fill a role. We would expect the Master plumber to not sign off on something that is incorrect. We do not want that. It will lead to more problems down the road. We just don't want to pay a Master plumber to do something that could be done cheaper and just as well. Not to mention the fact that many don't want to do it.

*From here I am just looking for more suggestions like @Bill S. of how to find that missing person on the team. I have an odesk spot posted and will let the community know how it goes.
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Joel OwensBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
12y
It sounds like to me the city and counties across the country are happy about the construction turning around and they are looking at ways to make more fees and requirements. All of course in the interest of protecting their citizens and public safety.... : )

I wouldn't be surprised if more stuff keeps popping up as things boom even more.
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William Byers
Engineer · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2013 · 182 posts · 66 votes
12y
As a Professional Engineer, I would like to shed some light from my perspective. When a PE signs and seals a set of plans, he is swearing and affirming they were prepared under his direct supervision, so you'll be hard pressed to find one to do otherwise.

If I'm not mistaken, you are trying to use one set of MEP contractors (ie cheaper) to do the work, and another set (or free lance CAD guy) to prepare just the drawings and have a Master Tradesman sign his work. All of this in a hot market. As stated earlier, supply and demand rules.

At the high end of your cost, it comes down to $454 per unit to have the plans done to satisfy the permit department requirements. That's pretty cheap.
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