Leverage Is Through the Roof!

Leverage Is Through the Roof!

Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

Lenders are getting more and more aggressive in their underwriting  - read this...

I am researching a project and reached out to a friend who is working for a big lender.  He confirmed - they are approving stuff that makes no sense anymore.

This bubble has more room to run, but when it bursts, it'll hurt - unless real incomes jump very significantly!

Thoughts?

2Reply
253 views

Most Popular Reply

Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 332 posts · 288 votes
11y

I am with @Serge S. on this one.  I am little annoyed at how everyone claims to be so smart but they aren't doing deals.  I'm not that smart and I've purchased over 3,000 units the past three years on behalf of the fund I work for and every single one of my deals has been a strong performer.  Granted, I look at deals in several markets which helps, but please don't tell me it's not possible.

The last slowdown has scarred many people, for good reason.  But most "slowdowns" don't look like that.  I feel that those sitting on the sidelines and waiting for "massive discounts" may be waiting for a long time.  When overbuilding takes effect, obviously there may be some price relief and sure a little better pricing, but with demographic trends the way they are these days, don't expect to see bargain basement pricing on multifamily any time soon.

I work for a fund that is continually buying, buying, buying.  Let me see if I can explain the rational.

We offer a 7% preferred return to our investors, as well splits above that amount.  Our president is the largest investor in our fund, so we have more skin in the game that any other investor.  We believe rents will continue to grow modestly the next couple of years, most likely.  @Ben Leybovich you are a smart guy, you understand the delta between cap rate and interest rate is where the money is made.  If we buying at 6+ cap rates (and that was usually 7+ the past few years) and financing at 3.5/4% or lower, we are making a lot of money.  

Will their be a slowdown?  100% YES.  That is a certainty.  But, if we are buying deals with 10%+ cash on cash returns in stable secondary and tertiary markets, short of 2007/8 happening again, what's the likely outcome?  Things slow down in a couple of years and instead of paying our investors amazing 15% returns, we are then paying a more modest 7-9%.  Still keeps people happy and we still are able to raise money.  And so we don't make as much as a company.  But we've been making money hand over fist since 2011.

We put 10 years loans on most properties.  We are getting 2-4 years of interest only with incredible rates on nonrecourse loans.

@Ben Leybovich as an example, I put together a deal in your next of the woods last year.  Bought 204 units built in 2004 out of foreclosure just north of Dayton for about 40% less than replacement cost.  Put a bank loan on it, stabilized operations and refi'd end of 2014.  Appraisal was $2 million higher than purchase price 11 months later.  We put a long term loan on the deal and expect 11-12% annual cash on cash returns for the foreseeable future.  

Are there risks out there?  Of course.  And as @Steve Olafson said, it's very metro specific.  I totally understand why he's not buying in Phoenix right now.  He also doesn't need to buy. He's doing quite well.

If you want to keep growing today, you need to be opening to expanding your target markets a bit, or yes, you might be sitting on the sidelines.  

Maybe we will be famously wrong.  That is a possibility.  But our model has worked for 23 years, built incredible wealth for our founder and he has NEVER missed a mortgage payment on any deal in 23 years.  That includes 2007 - 2009 when the world imploded.   

My $0.02.  But remember, I'm not as smart as most of you.

See this reply in the discussion

174 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Flipper · Riverside, IL · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 18 votes
    11y

    History always repeats itself.  

  • Darren SagerPro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    If you're able to purchase with less money down and the numbers when you analyze still make sense (you're making money) they why would people care if the bubble bursts?  

    If you finance with at least a 7 or 10 year chances are you'll ride out the possibility of a crash just fine and be in a position to refi when the market turns around.  

    Just my $.02.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Darren Sager - you care because most commercial paper re-sets interest rate in 5 years or sooner; even paper that is amortized for longer.

    I also care because as a syndicator I have to plan on getting my investors out on a specific time-table in order to drive the IRR.

    I also care because CapEx comes on in waves, and I don't want to own property past a certain time-fram as it will require additional expenditures which will drive down IRR.

    Having time is priceless in this business, and it's getting to be very dicey to underwrite...

  • Darren SagerPro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Yes @Ben Leybovich our primary focus is different. You're playing with time tables more so than the typical buy and hold investor. A typical buy and hold investor will not be concerned about CapEx coming in waves, etc. It's not their goal to get out in a certain time frame. It's about creating long term income.

    Your model is not short term but more moderate term and hence these factors weigh in much more significantly upon your business model and I can understand why. 

  • Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2014 · 214 posts · 149 votes
    11y

    Call me naive but wont another crash not be  great time for those with strong cash reserves to make some great purchases assuming they will not require financing?

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Darren Sager - typical investor is dumb! Don't you think CapEx will DRASTICALLY impact their "income"? haha

    How many typical investors do you know who set aside replacement costs as they should?!

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 332 posts · 288 votes
    11y
    We are seeing Fanne/Freddie compete big time with each other right now. We recently closed a 200-unit deal with an 80% LTV, sub 4% 12 year fixed loan with Fannie. And it came with 4 years I/O.
  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Darren Sager:

    If you're able to purchase with less money down and the numbers when you analyze still make sense (you're making money) they why would people care if the bubble bursts?  

     I assume that you have never had a property where the gross income dropped by more than 30% before...  Those people do care.   :)

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Jeff G. is alluding to those who are still borrowing heavily BEFORE the expected crash. A good approach for investors now might be to look at possible deals as though the next crash is imminent, and so should not apologise for putting in maximum offers of, say 45% current FMV (not ARV), rather than 70%. Cheers...

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

    I don't think this bubble will burst the same way as the last one.  Last time the economy had a total meltdown in conjunction.  This time, I believe that money will drift away from RE driving the cap rates up.  The incomes will probably not be hurt as bad.

    But if we start seeing inflation, that will be good for values. 

    The future is blurry like always...

  • Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2012 · 266 posts · 128 votes
    11y

    Ben - yes - we are riding a bubble.  But let me turn the question around to you:

    When the bubble bursts, what will happen to gross rents for most SFR investors. We know it will drop, but will it drop by 2% or 40%? And in that spirit, what happened to gross rents during the most recent crash (I am hearing ~10% in gross rents was normal).

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Jeremiah B. The bigger problem is that as far as the banks will be concerned, most SFR Investors will have borrowed more than the newly crashed values of their investments, so will be likely to call in those loans EVEN IF THE LOANS ARE STILL BEING SERVICED! Cheers (while you can)...

  • Darren SagerPro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Ben Leybovich  I agree with you that the typical investor does not put the proper capital aside for repairs and capital expenditures.  The reason for this in my opinion is not that they're dumb, it's because they're not taking it as seriously as they should.   It's more like a hobby to them and they need to wise up.  A hefty repair bill is usually what it takes to make them think twice. 

    @Steve Olafson No I have not had a property's income drop significantly ever thank God.  I think the reason for that is that I will not invest in an area that you can add to inventory easily and there's a long term high demand to live in that area.  

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
    11y

     My point was that it is not always easy to ride out a bursting bubble.  If you are immune to this issue then great.  But, **** happens even to the best investors.

  • Wholesaler · Westminster, CO · Member since 2013 · 224 posts · 77 votes
    11y

    @Ben Leybovich at the beginning of the week, I was talking with a lender and they too indicated that a micro bubble burst will probably happen sometime this year.  The rates look attractive for the 5 year, but going out to 10 is my preference to bridge the gap of downturns.  Over the last few months I have seen larger portfolio's coming on the market - properties that were purchased in 2012.  No these are not hedge funds liquidating - even though I have seen some of them too... these are personal portfolios worth millions.   

    @Kathryn Marchetti  history does repeat itself and I have seen our market do it three times now and each with different severity.   I think this time it will be different as the Fed has printed so much money that something bigger is on the brink of happening; the housing market maybe the first domino to fall.   

    If the dollar resets - my guess that the next recovery will go deeper and take much longer to recover.  No the "Sky is not falling!"  I am suggesting to stay financially fit and don't be tempted to over leverage!

  • Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2012 · 266 posts · 128 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:

    @Jeremiah B. The bigger problem is that as far as the banks will be concerned, most SFR Investors will have borrowed more than the newly crashed values of their investments, so will be likely to call in those loans EVEN IF THE LOANS ARE STILL BEING SERVICED! Cheers (while you can)...

    Brent  - I'm not sure I follow.  If I owe 80K on a 100K house, I have 20K equity and all is well.  If that house value is cut in half to 50K, I will owe 80K on a 50K house.  That's a big paper loss, but does not mean that the loan will be called due.  Either way, I can still keep making my monthly payments at <5% and ride out the bubbles and bursts.

    My view is that if I am cashflow positive on the house, I should keep it - regardless of whether I'm underwater 30K or have 20K in equity.  So, for properties I already hold in my long-term, buy-and-hold portfolio, I'm far far far more concerned about gross rents than property value.-

  • Real Estate Agent · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    The "bubble" is a artificial market event created by a lack of inventory and very low interest rates. The rise in prices has still kept many homeowners out of the market. As mentioned above those who are holding large inventory plus the hedge funds are slowly releasing their inventory in a controlled manner to maximize gains  to prevent a price collapse As interest rates rise prices will come down but it is a more normalized market then 2007-08

  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 49 posts · 21 votes
    11y
    I can agree with Steven Picker The market in 2008 was like the Wild West compared to our present market. Be careful not to compare Apples to Oranges. Yes, both are fruit. But, that doesn't make them the same. Low int rates, excess paper, less inventory and much, MUCH more regulation are all factors that weren't necessarily present 7 yrs ago. History showed us what happens with no regulation (bank runs and economy collapse during Great Depression brought on the FDIC just as the RE and bank crisis in 2008 brought stricter lending standards) and how we learned from our mistakes. That said, coming from a commissioned sales position from my last 8 working years, sales people get greedy and being to get "creative". I can only hope that rules aren't starting to bend again in lending specifically. Bad loans are a problem for all of us. Economically speaking. Sorry for my ramble. Reminds me of old class discussions in college.
  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 49 posts · 21 votes
    11y
    Ps - for "buy & hold" 'ers out there - a bursting bubble is always a good thing if you're liquid. In the Little Book of Value Investing, Author Christopher H Browne notes we should buy stocks like steaks...on sale.
  • Property Manager · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2015 · 22 posts · 7 votes
    11y

    If we started seeing insane price growth due to the lending practices, then I'd think "bubble". Right now I'm still thinking "recovery". 

    Although, I may have blinders on. I live in Tulsa, where we've always seen modest, healthy growth and never really experienced huge, unsustainable jumps in real estate values. 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jeremiah B.:
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:

    @Jeremiah B. The bigger problem is that as far as the banks will be concerned, most SFR Investors will have borrowed more than the newly crashed values of their investments, so will be likely to call in those loans EVEN IF THE LOANS ARE STILL BEING SERVICED! Cheers (while you can)...

    Brent  - I'm not sure I follow.  If I owe 80K on a 100K house, I have 20K equity and all is well.  If that house value is cut in half to 50K, I will owe 80K on a 50K house.  That's a big paper loss, but does not mean that the loan will be called due.  Either way, I can still keep making my monthly payments at <5% and ride out the bubbles and bursts.

    My view is that if I am cashflow positive on the house, I should keep it - regardless of whether I'm underwater 30K or have 20K in equity.  So, for properties I already hold in my long-term, buy-and-hold portfolio, I'm far far far more concerned about gross rents than property value.-

     @Jeremiah B. Yes, I am with you there, and have updated my previous post. Cheers...

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @Ben Leybovich  Yet another risk factor in the commercial market. 

    • Historically low cap rates
    • Historically high occupancy rates
    • Historically high numbers of young people expressing no desire to own
    • Historically low interest rates

    All things return to the mean. Perfect storm coming?

  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Don't know about your areas @Ben Leybovich but here in Portland, Oregon there was an article talking about the tipping point where buying is cheaper than renting and predictions that rents will increase for the next 2 years, and that renting will become less affordable, forcing renters who can, to buy.

    I remember when renters started buying and money was easy. My rentals started becoming vacant and stayed vacant until my rents came down or I sold them. That is when owning SFR becomes the better play.

  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Andrew Jordan:

    I can agree with Steven Picker

    The market in 2008 was like the Wild West compared to our present market. Be careful not to compare Apples to Oranges. Yes, both are fruit. But, that doesn't make them the same. Low int rates, excess paper, less inventory and much, MUCH more regulation are all factors that weren't necessarily present 7 yrs ago. History showed us what happens with no regulation (bank runs and economy collapse during Great Depression brought on the FDIC just as the RE and bank crisis in 2008 brought stricter lending standards) and how we learned from our mistakes.

    That said, coming from a commissioned sales position from my last 8 working years, sales people get greedy and being to get "creative". I can only hope that rules aren't starting to bend again in lending specifically. Bad loans are a problem for all of us. Economically speaking.

    Sorry for my ramble. Reminds me of old class discussions in college.

    Ps - for "buy & hold" 'ers out there - a bursting bubble is always a good thing if you're liquid. In the Little Book of Value Investing, Author Christopher H Browne notes we should buy stocks like steaks...on sale.

     You think maybe now is the time to save our liquid cash and wait for the next (imminent) market downturn? The market on all of Oahu, has been full price and above offers within 1 week of listing (if priced well), as well as seemingly 5% appreciation every 1-3 months.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 102 posts · 33 votes
    11y

    I prefer to buy in cash and make 12 caps with seller finance than worry about mortgages on rental properties when the next crash occurs. I still have some of the latter. Slowly converting to owner finance stuff in my deals in Ohio and Texas. 

    I came into some nice properties for 55-60k that I swung in cash most recentlllyt. Those are nice nest eggs and provide me with worry free cash flow, no fixing stuff as those are my most recent owner fi deals.

    In my owner fi distressed deals, part of me doesn't worry about the next crash. i'm liquid and the downtown will drop the prices and I'll buy more! Of course, I still have some rental mortgages to worry about but I'm working on it.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.