Built 2 duplexes or a single 4-plex?

Built 2 duplexes or a single 4-plex?

Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes

Looking for feedback on my next potential project.  In my area (New Orleans), property lots are narrow, and the neighborhoods were established before cars in most cases.   In the area that I am looking, the lots are 30ft wide, which makes it very difficult to provide off street parking (so on street parking is typical for the area) for anything but single family houses.

We have identified two lots next to each other and are currently pursuing purchasing them.  With these two lots, we could build one (1) duplex on each lot (two total duplex houses) or combine the lots and build one (1) fourplex on the combined lot.  We would be building similar sized units (~900 ft2, 2 bed, 1 bath per unit), but the primary difference would be the ability to provide offstreet parking for the fourplex, due lack of setbacks between the two lots.

My guess (based on my previous builds and discussions with my GC) is the my total construction costs would be similar between the two options. For what I might save on the actual structure of the fourplex, I would likely spend related to the offstreet parking.

I personally like duplexes as they feel more like a house than an apartment, where fourplexs feel a bit more like apartments. But most fourplexes around me are boring simple two story boxes that don't have any character and no outside amenities (something I would NOT replicate).

I am a long term build and hold investor, but being able to minimize my invested capital in the project is important to me. Either selection would have permanent financing at 75%LTV (to pay off the construction loan).

I'm interested in hearing feed back on this.

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Investor · Plano, TX · Member since 2016 · 38 posts · 21 votes
10y

Would you be able to charge higher rent for the fourplex, compared to similar properties, considering it came with off-street parking? That might help you decide.

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  • Investor · Plano, TX · Member since 2016 · 38 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    Would you be able to charge higher rent for the fourplex, compared to similar properties, considering it came with off-street parking? That might help you decide.

  • Real Estate Junkie · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2008 · 274 posts · 165 votes
    10y

    You might want to go for the parking. I own properties on N. Claiborne that have no parking and it seriously restricts my tenant pool.  Don't know if the street you are looking at is quite as busy. There is a difference between having to park on the (not busy) street in front of your house, and having to park several houses down in an empty lot, or having to park on the sidewalk and risk getting a ticket.

    If the street isn't a busy one, you do want to take into account that 4 units could mean as many as 8 cars (not likely, but possible). If you look around and don't see many spots available now, you can bet neighbors are going to ***** when their spots start getting overtaken by "new people."

    Not knowing the neighborhood it is hard to talk about building styles, could you do something along the lines of townhouses with the 4plex?

  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    10y

    @Hank A. Possibly, but it would not be something that I would want to count on.  People are used of on street parking in the area I am talking about.  Its more of a deal killer for some tenants, then a value adder (i.e. more rent).

  • Strafford, MO · Member since 2015 · 181 posts · 61 votes
    10y

    Your construction costs would probably be lower with the 4 plex.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Construction cost might be lower but expenses on combining the lot, parking spot, etc might offset those, to me it is more of convenience to park in a lot/garage/enclosed parking than that at street.
  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    10y

    @Kimberly Jones The area is not on a busy street, but I get what your saying.  There are decent sized lots available on N. Robert that I dont consider for the exact reason you are stating, the street is too busy and does not have parking on the street.   There would be enough street parking available, but not directly in front of the house for everyone.  

    My thought were something similar to a townhouse type fourplex, with my initial thought some like you see in new modern developments in CA, but with architecture that is fitting with NOLA.  Its not in a historical district (thankfully), so it would not be upsetting anyone to build something a bit more modern that the typical houses.

    @Darlena Jones & @Manolo D. I think that Manolo is right. I dont for seeing saving a ton of money assuming I build the duplexes at the same time.

  • Investor · Bryson City, NC · Member since 2013 · 162 posts · 122 votes
    10y

    @Mike Wood

    I would probably go for the quadplex and the extra parking.  I think it would be an added benefit that would help your property stand out from the competition and even if you were not able to charge more, it might help you create larger pool of tenants to choose from.  Looking forward to hearing about this project.  

  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    10y

    So, we are having difficulty getting the land sellers to a reasonable price.  For now, this particular project is not happening.  
    I do appreciate the feedback.

  • Real Estate Professional · Charleston, SC · Member since 2015 · 22 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    I am in New Orleans. My suggestion would be to design the units to be built on top of a garage or similar parking structure.  Most of the high end new builds in Charleston SC utilized this method due to limited parking spaces, crime (rare), and fema requirements. The concept works for nola and it's been done here too.   Aside from that if you can make a classy building that won't make our city ugly, my vote would be to go with the multi unit.  Don't fret though, there is a lot of raw land around the city.   

  • Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2012 · 968 posts · 747 votes
    10y

    @Mike Wood land is at a premium throughout the city right now. It is causing problems for many builders. I just attended a CE class that was titled "2016 Housing Forecast". It was put on by the Home Builders Association of Greater New Orleans. The two speakers were the president of Latter & Blum and Dr Wade Ragas from UNO. They compared 2014 to 2015 and showed that the cost of new construction for buyers went from a 24% premium up to a 58% premium now. This is attributed mainly to the high cost of land in NOLA. 

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Your initial thoughts are mine; the duplex's are more homie and share only one wall ant thus much more quiet if the floor plans places bedrooms along the common wall.  Also avoid the herd of elephants overhead :grin:

    Cost would likely favor the quad.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    What are the comps? 

    You may end up with very different end values, depending on duplexes or a quad. 

    For example: I have a friend, who has a beautiful 1800 sqf Victorian in a historic district in Atlanta. Comps for this type of house are (or were, when this appraisal happened) in the 350K range. 

    It so happened, that this victorian had been built on an incline and had 3 small studio apartments below the main level. 

    So, she was trying to get a refi and the appraisal came in at 180K. Why? Because the appraiser now had to use quads as comps and none of the Victorians in the area were. So, it was not seen as this great Victorian, worth 350K and having 3 apartments in addition, no, the only quads around there were built in the 60's or so, for the sole purpose of being rentals and they just weren't very nice and comparable to the building style and type of houses in the area.

    And the appraiser couldn't just leave out the apartments and just appraise the Victorian main house, so that the value would be around 350K.

  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    10y

    @Braden Smith  Totally agree, land is getting stupid expensive.  While I am prepared to pay good prices for land, there is so limited supply that I really cant find much that supports the price.

    @Michaela G. Either would comp out with similar $/SF, so for me its not much of concern. There would be no confusion with SFH valuations with this project.

    Based on the fact that the fourplex would have to be built to IBC (big item appears to be a required sprinkler system) and the added concrete flatwork (for offstreet parking), I am actually thinking the fourplex would be slightly more.

  • Investor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 4 votes
    10y
    Hello Mike Wood I would definitely go for the four-plex in order to provide off street parking. Maybe you could add a carport and charge an extra $20 dollars per month per unit gaining an additional $960 per year. Plus you'd get to depreciate the carport and I'm sure tenants wouldn't mind paying $20 extra to provide shade and roof for their cars. Good luck!
  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2015 · 47 posts · 18 votes
    10y
    Luis Miramontes how is it that you get to depreciate the carport? Is there anything else you can depreciate when it comes to new construction?
  • Investor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    @Rachel Trimble hi Rachel. As far as I know, unless I'm misinformed you can literally depreciate anything even your drapes.( that's probably a little exaggerated) but you can depreciate anything that you use for a business and that will eventually wear and tear. Whether it's a big amount that will be depreciated or not you will have to figure out if you want to depreciate it over time or over one year! It's a great strategy for taxes and I love it!!

  • Investor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 4 votes
    10y
    Rachel Trimble ps- I believe you can depreciate everything except for land, since land doesn't depreciate! All construction is depreciable tho I believe!
  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    10y

    Forgot about this topic. So a bit of an update.

    We decided to purchase the two lots, and closed on them last week.  We paid more than we wanted to, but the area supports the prices.  As an added bonus, we are also under contract with a third adjacent lot next door to these, for very similar price.

    We decided to build duplex houses on each lot. This was based on the fact that the comps are higher on the duplex houses, which will help up minimize our trapped cash in the project at completion (since my permanent financing is at 75% LTV for these).

    One of the duplexes will have offstreet parking for each unit (one parking spot per unit), and the other will have offstreet parking for one unit (two parking spots for one unit). Only one unit will have to worry about parking on the street.

    I am currently out for bids on the two duplexes.  We will build the first two and then start building on the third lot.  We just done have enough capital to build all three at the same time.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Mike Wood Following the thread. Are you planning to hold it as per your normal transaction? You've been building for a while, and I believe you can huild it at 70-77% ARV leaving you with cash in or out a few grand. I'm noob with financing builds, so what does your numbers look like or how much liquid do you need for how much project? Thanks for the input.
  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Luis Miramontes who said land doesn't depreciate? What do you think 2008 did to land value? Some lands have negative value then.
  • Investor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    nope. I'm sorry @Manolo D., but you can never depreciate land.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Luis Miramontes Maybe on an accounting/tax standpoint. Not in reality.
  • Investor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    Exactly! If you go back to the comments you'll see I told Rachel she can depreciate almost anything on her taxes except for land

  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    10y

    @Manolo D.  We do believe that we are going to be able to build in a lot of equity on these properties.  The exact amount is still a bit iffy, as the immediate area has not seen alot of new construction (although, it will very soon, as 5 empty lots have sold in the last 3 months).

    At this point, I have worked up my preliminary cost estimate (which I do before going out for GC/Builder bids), ran comps, developed the plans/spec and am currently out for bid.  I believe that both houses will be in the $80-88/ft2 to build (not including land), which will put me at a $100-110/ft2 total cost.  Conservative comps indicate that new or completely renovated properties are in the +$140/ft2 range (actual recent comps are averaging $169/ft2, but there is nothing in the immediate area, so I am discounting that figure).

    I will still have to put up the 20% of cost (which is about $85k, on a $420k total project cost) for the construction loan, but anticipate getting most of that back.  I am hopeful to have less than $20k tied up in these when completed.

    Because of the 20% capital requirement on the construction loan, we are only able to build the first two duplexes at the same time.  We will have to wait to build on the third lot (that we put under contract last week) until we complete the first two.

    I should know the exact number by mid July.  I have already discussed the projects with my bank and they do not see any issues with the numbers.  But it still has to go thru the review and approval process, including pre-construction appraisals. But I need to know my actual GC/Builder costs.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Mike Wood Greatly helpful info, thanks for sharing your time. One more question, why have you not considered selling one of your units and gain 80k (say around 20% sweat equity from your new build) so you could afford your next 4 builds at same time instead of cash strap on every project? Or does it just make more sense to hold it and simply build more equity from there?

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