Solar Panels on roofs
Marshfield, MA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 8 votes
Solar Panels on roofs
Most Popular Reply
San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 22 votes
8yOriginally posted by @Marc Biviano:
Hi ,
I'm looking for feedback on solar panels on my personal home in Massachusetts. I am in need of a new roof soon and have been looking into solar panels on my roof as an option to cut my electric bill. I would only be interested in purchasing the panels on a payment plan with a payoff period of about 7 years. Massachusetts still has a 30% credit on place as well as a State $1000 credit. I'm looking for peoples experience with solar panels good and bad to determine if it is worthwhile for me. Also what have you had for costs of installing 6-8kw systems will solar panels hurt the longevity of my roof. Thanks
Marc,
Many people don't know this but Massachusetts has consistently been ranked the #1 best state for PV solar. Yes, better than CA and AZ. Going into 2018 still ranks #2.
https://solarpowerrocks.com/2018-state-solar-power-rankings/
Factors include:
1) Overall Grade 2) Renewable Portfolio Standard 3) Solar Carve Out 4) Electricity Price 5) Net Metering 6) Interconnection 7) Solar Rebates 8) State Solar Tax Credits 9) Performance Payments 10) Sales Tax Exemption 11) Property Tax Exemption
--
It's not all just about sun hours.. tax incentives, rebates, and local policies make just as much of an effect on solar viability. I have been very involved in the solar industry for about a decade now, and more recently bridging the space between solar and real estate. Here are my thoughts based on your questions:
Need a new roof? The 30% ITC Tax credit for solar ALSO includes your roof. The tax code clearly states the cost associated to a foundation for solar such as a roof will not fail to qualify here. In short you can be credited back dollar for dollar 30% of your solar AND roof cost against your tax liability. Definitely worth doing both together & wrapping them in the same financing. Also, Im not a tax professional and this is not tax advice, but your CPA should be able to claim you deprecation on your investment as well, gaining you even more tax benefit.
Solar panels provide cover from the elements to the shingles located below them, thus increasing shingle life. Most solar contractors these days hold 10 -25 year warrantys on their workmanship/penetrations. It's 2018... days of damaged roofs due to solar installs are long gone (unless you have a ceramic tile roof or something that easily breaks when stepped on)
You can easily reduce your power bill down to just the utility's basic charge, typically 5-10 bucks per month. And in states with high electricity costs, including Massachusetts, you should easily be able to have a loan payment that is less than your old power bill. Financially / Cashflow speaking, solar is a no brainer if you can make this happen. Plus once it's paid off, thats it, no more power bill.
Batteries are getting better, however for now I would only suggest them to very concerned "doomsday" folks or for the intent of reducing time-of-us utility charges. You can request from you solar contractor to have a grid-tied solar only system installed that is prepped (plug & play) for future battery implementation. There are some minor solar equipment differences, specifically with the inverter, if you intend to add batteries now or later
If a solar system is properly engineered, snow is a non-issue. Most solar engineering software accounts for average weather conditions for your zip when sizing the required system to offset your electric consumption. Ideally it would be designed to "over-produce" enough during sunny months to save up enough Net Metered kWh credits from your utility to get you through the less sunny months without an issue. The utility in MA has a great net metering program that allows you to bank your unused production without needing batteries.
For a 6-8kw system (this is a tad higher than average fyi), you should feel good in the range of $18k-$25k gross (remember you can get back 30% of that, plus the state incentive, plus any other local rebates/incentives). Basically it's like buying a brand new car at 40% off , except is saves you about the same amount of money that a car would costs you in gas. That makes this a great asset to own.
I do have some good relationships there in MA, let me know if you'd like me to get you in touch with a trusted contractor.
Hope this helps
39 Replies
- Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Marc Biviano:
Hi , I'm looking for feedback on solar panels on my personal home in Massachusetts. I am in need of a new roof soon and have been looking into solar panels on my roof as an option to cut my electric bill. I would only be interested in purchasing the panels on a payment plan with a payoff period of about 7 years. Massachusetts still has a 30% credit on place as well as a State $1000 credit. I'm looking for peoples experience with solar panels good and bad to determine if it is worthwhile for me. Also what have you had for costs of installing 6-8kw systems will solar panels hurt the longevity of my roof. ThanksI looked into them too. In the sunny Phoenix area, we get lots of sun. The companies tell me they are good for only a portion of the day and only when there is a certain amount of clear sky. The panels should point south. Some areas restrict being able to see the panels from the street. Most people aren't used to how they look. So anyway, they compute the number of days the panels are useful and how many watts you are likely to get. The electricity is good during the day. It goes away at night. You need to add a battery pack if you want to store energy. Battery packs are not cheap. Firemen hate solar panels. Firemen get shocked and the panels are in the way in the event of a fire. Our local power utility subsidizes the panels and installation and some people can sell power back to the utility during the day time. If you buy the panels on a payment plan, it is a "lien" against the property and when you go to sell the property, the buyer has to assume that lien. Some people are willing to do that some people are not. You have some tough storms in your area. I don't know how much maintenance that will cause. If there is snow on the panels, no electricity gets generated. There are ground based solar panels with battery packs available on the market. They are not as robust but they are collapsible and you take them with you when you move. That is all I have to say about that (solar power) ;-)
- Marshfield, MA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 8 votes8y
thanks @Account Closed I'll look into the ground panels
- San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 22 votes8y
Originally posted by @Marc Biviano:
Hi , I'm looking for feedback on solar panels on my personal home in Massachusetts. I am in need of a new roof soon and have been looking into solar panels on my roof as an option to cut my electric bill. I would only be interested in purchasing the panels on a payment plan with a payoff period of about 7 years. Massachusetts still has a 30% credit on place as well as a State $1000 credit. I'm looking for peoples experience with solar panels good and bad to determine if it is worthwhile for me. Also what have you had for costs of installing 6-8kw systems will solar panels hurt the longevity of my roof. Thanks
Marc,
Many people don't know this but Massachusetts has consistently been ranked the #1 best state for PV solar. Yes, better than CA and AZ. Going into 2018 still ranks #2.
https://solarpowerrocks.com/2018-state-solar-power-rankings/
Factors include:
1) Overall Grade 2) Renewable Portfolio Standard 3) Solar Carve Out 4) Electricity Price 5) Net Metering 6) Interconnection 7) Solar Rebates 8) State Solar Tax Credits 9) Performance Payments 10) Sales Tax Exemption 11) Property Tax Exemption
--
It's not all just about sun hours.. tax incentives, rebates, and local policies make just as much of an effect on solar viability. I have been very involved in the solar industry for about a decade now, and more recently bridging the space between solar and real estate. Here are my thoughts based on your questions:
Need a new roof? The 30% ITC Tax credit for solar ALSO includes your roof. The tax code clearly states the cost associated to a foundation for solar such as a roof will not fail to qualify here. In short you can be credited back dollar for dollar 30% of your solar AND roof cost against your tax liability. Definitely worth doing both together & wrapping them in the same financing. Also, Im not a tax professional and this is not tax advice, but your CPA should be able to claim you deprecation on your investment as well, gaining you even more tax benefit.
Solar panels provide cover from the elements to the shingles located below them, thus increasing shingle life. Most solar contractors these days hold 10 -25 year warrantys on their workmanship/penetrations. It's 2018... days of damaged roofs due to solar installs are long gone (unless you have a ceramic tile roof or something that easily breaks when stepped on)
You can easily reduce your power bill down to just the utility's basic charge, typically 5-10 bucks per month. And in states with high electricity costs, including Massachusetts, you should easily be able to have a loan payment that is less than your old power bill. Financially / Cashflow speaking, solar is a no brainer if you can make this happen. Plus once it's paid off, thats it, no more power bill.
Batteries are getting better, however for now I would only suggest them to very concerned "doomsday" folks or for the intent of reducing time-of-us utility charges. You can request from you solar contractor to have a grid-tied solar only system installed that is prepped (plug & play) for future battery implementation. There are some minor solar equipment differences, specifically with the inverter, if you intend to add batteries now or later
If a solar system is properly engineered, snow is a non-issue. Most solar engineering software accounts for average weather conditions for your zip when sizing the required system to offset your electric consumption. Ideally it would be designed to "over-produce" enough during sunny months to save up enough Net Metered kWh credits from your utility to get you through the less sunny months without an issue. The utility in MA has a great net metering program that allows you to bank your unused production without needing batteries.For a 6-8kw system (this is a tad higher than average fyi), you should feel good in the range of $18k-$25k gross (remember you can get back 30% of that, plus the state incentive, plus any other local rebates/incentives). Basically it's like buying a brand new car at 40% off , except is saves you about the same amount of money that a car would costs you in gas. That makes this a great asset to own.
I do have some good relationships there in MA, let me know if you'd like me to get you in touch with a trusted contractor.
Hope this helps
- China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
@Marc Biviano We installed a 13.1 KWP / 48 panel system last July.
We had a negative balance due to Eversource throughout the summer, but with our baseboard electric heat, we've burned through that. We had a $300-ish electric bill in January when we had that awful cold snap.
The net meter read +150 KWH when it was installed. We drove it down past zero in the summer, but as of yesterday it was +22,000 KWH.
Our system was $52,000 and we purchased it with a low cost loan from DCU. There was a $17K rebate on it and we went with a 10 year, guaranteed fixed price SREC contract. Part of the expense was digging a 300 foot trench from the barn where the panels are down to the house.
2018 will be our first full year with it, but so far, so good.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
In the DC area they devalue your property. Consult with a knowledgelable agent in your market to see if they have a positive or negative affect on your property value. Ive run into a number of sellers who are very surprised to find their homes sell for $25k less, which is much more significant than the $50 s month they were saving.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 22 votes8y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
In the DC area they devalue your property. Consult with a knowledgelable agent in your market to see if they have a positive or negative affect on your property value. Ive run into a number of sellers who are very surprised to find their homes sell for $25k less, which is much more significant than the $50 s month they were saving.
I'd imagine this is regarding leased panels or a PPA solar program, these are designed to make the solar company lots of money. It's important to keep these separate from purchased/owned solar system scenarios, however many people mistakenly merge these together in their head as the same product, and it's not. Outright owned panels add value.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Robert Lubell:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
In the DC area they devalue your property. Consult with a knowledgelable agent in your market to see if they have a positive or negative affect on your property value. Ive run into a number of sellers who are very surprised to find their homes sell for $25k less, which is much more significant than the $50 s month they were saving.
I'd imagine this is regarding leased panels or a PPA solar program, these are designed to make the solar company lots of money. It's important to keep these separate from purchased/owned solar system scenarios, however mistakenly merge these together in their head as the same product, and it's not. Outright owned panels add value.
In the DC area they reduce the value of the property whether they are leased or owned. The adjustment is more for leased, but even owned outright they signifigantly impact the value if the property downward.
We have very low utility costs in the midatlantic. The DC area has the highest incomes in the country. People care much more about the aesthetics of their property than saving a marginal amount of money on their already small electric bill.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Investor · Valencia, CA · Member since 2017 · 171 posts · 130 votes8y
Hi @Russell Brazil I work with one of the top national Agents in ReMax in Rockville who would completely disagree with that assertion.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Andrew Smith:
Hi @Russell Brazil I work with one of the top national Agents in ReMax in Rockville who would completely disagree with that assertion.
Im also one of the top national agents, top 1%, and there is a total of 2 agents at remax in rockville that sell more than me, and only because they have teams.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Actually 3 agents there, I just checked the rankings.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Investor · Valencia, CA · Member since 2017 · 171 posts · 130 votes8y
@Russell Brazil Not trying to compare status of real estate success than for any other reason than he has an entirely different opinion on solar conditions in DC/MD/VA. In his words "with the incentives in DC for going solar in DC if you cannot sell solar there you should stop selling solar". He actually has a 70 panel system on his home in Rockville and a BGE bill of $7/month.
The rebates in DC are frankly astonishing and about the best in the US. As far as aesthetics go, that is of course subjective, but in numbers you are almost paid to go solar in DC. The absence of a utility bill increasingly overcomes the aesthetic arguments of roof vents and satellite dishes being impacted by a solar array. The DC/VA/MD market is our third fastest growing market after CA and FL. - Rental Property Investor · Madison, WI · Member since 2013 · 629 posts · 339 votes8y
I really don't understand the 'aesthetics' thing. I don't think that roof shingles alone look any better or worse than roofs that have panels. They look different. I just don't get it.
I think it's a love/hate snobbery thing. Not aesthetics. Some people drive SUVs and have motor boats. Those people are not going to have solar panels (as a rule).
- Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes8y
For me, its purely aesthetics. I think they look ugly. Now, those Tesla solar shingles are a different story. I just replaced my roof and seriously looked into them. But at 3-4X the costs of a regular roof, and no guarantee that they will survive the next hail storm (the five year old impact resistant roof I replaced did not) I can't do it. Yet.
- Investor · Valencia, CA · Member since 2017 · 171 posts · 130 votes8y
Well I think they look sexy! :)
Yes the Tesla tiles are a non-starter for all bar the 0.01% with incredibly deep pockets. There are options for those that really don't want panels on the roof though - ground mounted systems and solar patios. The latter are becoming a hot commodity in CA as they are bifacial panels (produce from above and below) and create shade patios/shaded outdoor rooms.
I cannot imagine anyone has a utility that reduces their monthly bills, and the discussion of aesthetics seems to diminish as the cost gap widens between fossil fuel derived power and solar power.
What I personally found to be really ugly by the way was the 20,000 gallons of crude that leaked from a broken pipe in a local canyon in SoCal - one of countless such leaks across the country. I'll take the aesthetics of matt black solar panels on a roof over that any day! - Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
@Russell Brazil @Andrew Smith Just my 2c I throw up in my mouth a little when I see a home in the DMV area ascetically ruined by solar panels
Once the technology advances and a battery pack can take me off the grid I will be more interested but currently I just think they are ugly
Again just my 2c
- Investor · Cambridge, MA · Member since 2013 · 264 posts · 104 votes8y
@Charlie MacPherson How much house were you heating in the example you gave? And what was year built / insulation situation?
- China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
@Jim Sestito We moved in a year ago, so we don’t have a lot of history. The solar farm went live mid-July 2017.
House was built in 1985. I don’t know what to say about the insulation, except that there is fiberglass insulation in the walls. No idea of R-value.
The house is ~1325 sq ft. and was built to take advantage of passive solar with mostly east facing windows. The west side of the house faces a very steep hill that is only several feet away from the rear of the house.
As Michael P’s point, I agree with the aesthetics concern. Our home is a “rustic contemporary” - post and beam and we’re deep in the forest. Rather than clear cut the trees around us, we put 48 panels on one of our barns that’s about 300 feet to the south. That area has very few trees. There’s shade in the early morning and late afternoon only.
The system we have is on-grid only. The inverter is designed to dump everything it can back into the grid.
In order to go off-grid, I’d have to have a cut-over switch that would take the from the existing inverter and on to an off-grid style inverter that’s designed to work with batteries, etc. I’m told that if I do that, I’d lose my SRECs, so that doesn’t help.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes8y
Since there's a bunch of knowledgeable solar guys in here right now, and it kind of fits the topic, I think it might be appropriate to ask this question here.
The solar panel installations that I've seen on Youtube, TV, etc that are retrofit - i.e. not put on when they're replacing a roof, which I've never seen - always shows them drilling bracket mounting holes straight through the asphalt shingles. I want to ask about this because no way is anyone drilling through my shingles, I don't care what kind of "forever" sealant they claim to use to keep water from leaking through the hole. How are these solar panels supposed to be mounted on asphalt roofs?
I was on Mr. Money Mustache and looking at the pictures of the ones he had put on his house and they were drilled straight through the shingles. The same way the Dish guy would drill straight through mounting a dish on the roof of one of your rentals.
Skyline Properties - 8yBrian CardwellPro MemberInvestor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Robert Lubell:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
In the DC area they devalue your property. Consult with a knowledgelable agent in your market to see if they have a positive or negative affect on your property value. Ive run into a number of sellers who are very surprised to find their homes sell for $25k less, which is much more significant than the $50 s month they were saving.
I'd imagine this is regarding leased panels or a PPA solar program, these are designed to make the solar company lots of money. It's important to keep these separate from purchased/owned solar system scenarios, however mistakenly merge these together in their head as the same product, and it's not. Outright owned panels add value.
In the DC area they reduce the value of the property whether they are leased or owned. The adjustment is more for leased, but even owned outright they signifigantly impact the value if the property downward.
We have very low utility costs in the midatlantic. The DC area has the highest incomes in the country. People care much more about the aesthetics of their property than saving a marginal amount of money on their already small electric bill.
With all due respect. Interesting opinion Mr. Brazil. I will tell you, my system increased the value of my $500k value home by almost 100k according to the appraisal I received.
Maybe I am the exception to the rule.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Robert Lubell:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
In the DC area they devalue your property. Consult with a knowledgelable agent in your market to see if they have a positive or negative affect on your property value. Ive run into a number of sellers who are very surprised to find their homes sell for $25k less, which is much more significant than the $50 s month they were saving.
I'd imagine this is regarding leased panels or a PPA solar program, these are designed to make the solar company lots of money. It's important to keep these separate from purchased/owned solar system scenarios, however mistakenly merge these together in their head as the same product, and it's not. Outright owned panels add value.
In the DC area they reduce the value of the property whether they are leased or owned. The adjustment is more for leased, but even owned outright they signifigantly impact the value if the property downward.
We have very low utility costs in the midatlantic. The DC area has the highest incomes in the country. People care much more about the aesthetics of their property than saving a marginal amount of money on their already small electric bill.
With all due respect. Interesting opinion Mr. Brazil. I will tell you, my system increased the value of my $500k value home by almost 100k according to the appraisal I received.
Maybe I am the exception to the rule.
I'll sell your house for free if I can sell it for $100k more than a comparable neighbors property.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Specialist · Riverside, CA · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
I agree with @Russell Brazil on that one unless you are selling $100s or $1000s of dollars of energy back to the utility company there is no way a solar installation increased your value that much on the open market. Solar adds value out here but not that much and nowhere near $100,000
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Aaron K.:
I agree with @Russell Brazil on that one unless you are selling $100s or $1000s of dollars of energy back to the utility company there is no way a solar installation increased your value that much on the open market. Solar adds value out here but not that much and nowhere near $100,000
Yeah if it is a neighborhood of $500k houses...there is literally nothing they could do to the property to raise the value $100k. They could put an addition on doubling the size of the house, and if every other house in the neighborhood is at $500k, it still wouldnt raise the value $100k.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - 8yBrian CardwellPro MemberInvestor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
Here is what I can tell you about my experience with solar panels. I have 16.75 kw system. I built my house four years ago. I immediately had the solar installed. In '15 It generated 18.3kw, In '16 it generated 18.8kw and in '17 it generated 17.8kw. I paid 32k for the complete system. I pay an average of less than $450 a year for electric. Oh did I mention it is an all electric house. No gas to the house at all. I absolutely love them.
They are Canadian Solar panels.
- 8yBrian CardwellPro MemberInvestor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Brian Cardwell:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Robert Lubell:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
In the DC area they devalue your property. Consult with a knowledgelable agent in your market to see if they have a positive or negative affect on your property value. Ive run into a number of sellers who are very surprised to find their homes sell for $25k less, which is much more significant than the $50 s month they were saving.
I'd imagine this is regarding leased panels or a PPA solar program, these are designed to make the solar company lots of money. It's important to keep these separate from purchased/owned solar system scenarios, however mistakenly merge these together in their head as the same product, and it's not. Outright owned panels add value.
In the DC area they reduce the value of the property whether they are leased or owned. The adjustment is more for leased, but even owned outright they signifigantly impact the value if the property downward.
We have very low utility costs in the midatlantic. The DC area has the highest incomes in the country. People care much more about the aesthetics of their property than saving a marginal amount of money on their already small electric bill.
With all due respect. Interesting opinion Mr. Brazil. I will tell you, my system increased the value of my $500k value home by almost 100k according to the appraisal I received.
Maybe I am the exception to the rule.
I'll sell your house for free if I can sell it for $100k more than a comparable neighbors property.
No not right now but I will keep you in mind. I might take you up on that
It was me who determined that value it was an appraiser. 😁
- 8yBrian CardwellPro MemberInvestor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
That should say "wasn't"
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