SF Bay Area Economic & RE Update (Ongoing)

SF Bay Area Economic & RE Update (Ongoing)

J. MartinPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I have organized what I believe to be some very valuable information and relationships about the economy and real estate, and will be posting updates about the San Francisco Bay Area marketplace here periodically. I studied a lot of economics in school, and they told me you can't predict real estate prices. ********!!!! Let's lay the groundwork... And a big thanks to @Account Closed for his mentorship and economic

There tends to be a strong relationship between changes in employment and changes in real estate prices. Real estate prices in the Bay tend to go up when unemployment is falling. And they tend to flatten or go down when unemployment is rising. This tends to happen in regular cycles.

The relationship between changes in employment and changes in real estate prices becomes more obvious when we look at percent change in employment, and the rate of change (second derivative, but don't get bogged down in the terminology..)

This is interesting because:
1) The relationship appears meaningful
2) You can see a deceleration in employment gains (lower growth rate) while real estate prices are still increasing (at a decreasing rate). In other words, you can see the slow down in growth before real estate prices flatten or drop.

Coming out of a recession, look how job growth goes from it's worst (about 5% job loss in worst year) to 2% job loss the next year, 0% the following year, then 2% gains, then 4-5% gains, then starts lessening again to 3%, 2.5%, and tends to drift back down towards 0% again, before going negative.. But you can also see that home price appreciation

starts slowing (although still appreciating) as job growth slows.

Now what if there were some sort of way to predict how employment was going to change..?

What if there were a more local index that showed the way the economy and employment is and will do? Turns out, there’s one of those too!!!

To me, the picture becomes more clear. In the SF and East Bay Area, employment gains, economic activity, and real estate price appreciation peaked in 2012, and has been on a decline since. If you look at the prior two cycles, you can see each of these indicators reach a peak during the middle of the cycle, then decelerate (grow at a decreasing rate) as the expansionary phase of the economic cycle comes to an end. You can see the leading index for CA, economic conditions for San Francisco – Oakland – Hayward , changes in employment, and real estate price appreciation all grow at decreasing rates, until they approach zero, as we go into a recession…. I’ll post more for Silicon Valley, San Jose, and Santa Clara later.

Do you disagree with me? Is this information valuable? Too little time frame? Meaningless? Stupid for thinking we can predict how real estate prices will change over an economic cycle? If it were this obvious or easy, wouldn’t everyone already have figure it out, and we wouldn’t be talking about efficient market hypothesis? Does this change your perspective on real estate price appreciation and its predictability?

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Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @David S.:

@Account Closed. Thanks for the summary.

A $3M offer on a 14-unit building in "our market"....Surely, this cannot be located in the San Jose Bay area where you are located....Can you add any additional detail?

David,

I've been living and breathing real estate since 1999 and went all-in in 2009 when I recognized the opportunity. Thankfully my wife was supportive and gave me a thumb up to quit my W2 then. At the time, real estate was so cheap. I told people 2/1 condos in San Jose were being auctioned off at the courthouse steps for $117k-$135k. People looked at me like I was an idiot. These were selling for $400-$425k at the top of the market in 2006. Now, they're selling for $400-$450k a piece.

People have been giving me the same look when I tell them we buy 6 to 8-unit buildings for $1.2M in San Jose. @Johnson H. says I walk for millions. My partner and I hold hands and go for a walk in our market looking for buildings that need help. We write down the addresses, reach out to our agents and tell them to contact the owners. Then we submit our offers. We get deals here and there using this method. In fact, we're negotiating to buy a building with this method. Wife is ready to sell while husband is unsure of what to do with the proceeds.

@Bac Nguyen is correct. We only farm in one zip code. That is 95112. Our targeted markets are 2 blocks around SJSU and 1 block radius around Japantown. Anything between SJSU and Japantown is a tweener for us. We have passed on many tweener deals. In hindsight, they're great deals. @Account Closed, it's like direct marketing. You miss 100% shots that you don't take. That's what I remind Johnson. That's why I keep swinging. It's good to know that Wayne Gretzky said it. I like this quote of his just as much "A good player goes where the puck is while a great player goes where the puck will be."

This is MY QUOTE and I don't care who said it first. I came up with it a couple of weeks ago and installed it on my Tesla the day the frame came in. This has essentially been true with my life. Some of my friends believe I should be the "exclusive owner of the plate frame." I've ordered it for a few close friends and would love to give you one if you're interested. It's a good daily reminder IMO. 

Wife's sibling told me I should get DREAMER for my license plate. I may do just that. ;)

See this reply in the discussion

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  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    @J. Martin I think we can assume this is a top with some degree of confidence, let's say 80%. For LA probably different story...

    Matt,

    Sounds like we agree that we're at the top of a cycle then :) That's the most important to me.

     I think the timing of a reversion is more fickle and hard to call. It's also hard to call if RE prices will fall - but I feel comfortable saying with a pretty high degree of certainty that RE appreciation will at least decelerate in CA, the Bay Area, (and LA!) in the next 1,2,3 years.. What I can say is that I'm also comfortable saying with a pretty high degree of certainty that they will do better just after unemployment is high, and starts improving (the opposite of this part of the cycle).

    Here's the LA market for you Matt. I agree LA seemed less impacted in the dot com downturn for RE prices. It looks like prices went mildly negative for around 5 years in the early 90's, then quite negative in the great recession, but appreciation didn't slow much after the dot com bust. Still happy to take you up on my fed funds bet, but either way would like to buy you a beer and chat about the economy next time I'm down South ;)

    @David Faulkner,

    "So what am I doing about it?"

    1) I am not purchasing property right now unless it is a FANTASTIC deal.
    2) Squeezing more income out of properties with 1-3 month furnished rentals that capitalize on this part of the cycle.
    3) Doing cash-out refi's to build the warchest for the next time real estate softens - whether that be a quick and low slowdown, protracted modest slowdown, or a more significant downturn. Savvy and patient investors will get significantly better discounts than the average slowdown in prices when days on market and months' supply are more. And an increase in prices after an economic downturn is both more probable, and likely to be of a higher magnitude, IMHO.
    4) If there is rapid appreciations for the next 1-2 years, I would consider selling 1 or more of my properties, depending on how overvalued the market gets..

    So I think it is a better reward/risk and better use of my capital to invest when unemployment is high, and starting to improve, than the opposite.. Maybe I'm crazy!!!

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @J. Martin Sounds good. I would not dispute your take for rates or UCLA's. I was leaning more towards UCLA's version many months ago. I really have no convictions when it comes to interest rates.  Definitely deceleration and that was forecast.  Crash IDK, corrections, flat spots will be very zip code sensitive. Anything can and will happen is always my big and small picture take. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Hailey, ID · Member since 2015 · 218 posts · 143 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    In his December essay, UCLA Anderson senior economist Jerry Nickelsburg looks at California’s most recent economic data, including trade through California’s ports, international arrivals at Los Angeles ....

    The current forecast is for continued steady gains in employment through 2017.

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-anderson-fo...

     Matt,
    I know you are an enormous fan of UCLA Anderson's forecast, but taste some other Kool-Aid out there too! I'm personally not quite as rosy as their forecast, and in fact, I'm wiling to put my money where my mouth is! To me, near-record everything great tells me we are ready for a downturn when the cracks start forming - not that things are set to keep booming for the next two years. I think we need to look beyond the good numbers in the last couple quarters, and look at the whole cycle.

    I specifically disagree with this analysis, and am willing to bet against it if you are up for it:

    "...we expect the Fed to begin normalizing interest rates by increasing the Federal Funds rate this month. … Thus, we forecast that by the end of 2016 the federal funds rate will be about 1.5 percent and it will approximate 3.25 percent at the end of 2017.”"

    I will bet you $500 that the lower bound of the target fed funds rate will be lower than 1.5% by the end of 2016, and lower than 3.25% by the end of 2017. If you want, we can do $250 for each year. You would be betting that the lower bound of the Fed's target fed funds is 1.5% or higher (currently .25%). I don't think the slowdown in global growth will allow it in many ways. Please accept in the forums, and we'll be on record here. We can settle each Jan 1st ;)

    I'm also not as rosy as you on tech. Things come, and things go. We hit a data anniversary last month as the total number of jobs in Silicon Valley MSA finally hit the same level they were before the dot-com bust.

    If this expansion does go on for another 2 years - and especially if real estate keeps gaining at these rates - I think we'll be better set up for some dislocations.. ;)

    Ray Dalio said the Fed has "tightened themselves into weakness".

    Soros and Bass have billions shorting the Yuan, China, and Asian currencies.

    Credit bubble like never before, and China is burning through reserves. Asian cash buyers have inflated the RE in primary markets. They looked to US RE as a safe haven for their capital (must have forgotten about '07).

    I agree 100% that we're at the top, and heading down with a couple dead cat bounces along the way.

    What the Fed needs to do is tell the market that they're not going to raise rates, and then eventually drop them, and another round of QE. This is the kicking the can down the street answer.

    I believe the Fed is stupid enough to raise rates, as we're already in a recession. 

    Too many factors that this bubble is popping, and no real sign of growth, but it's going to be a global credit crisis, and out of it will be a global reset of the credit cycle.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hailey, ID · Member since 2015 · 218 posts · 143 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    In his December essay, UCLA Anderson senior economist Jerry Nickelsburg looks at California’s most recent economic data, including trade through California’s ports, international arrivals at Los Angeles ....

    The current forecast is for continued steady gains in employment through 2017.

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-anderson-fo...

     Matt,
    I know you are an enormous fan of UCLA Anderson's forecast, but taste some other Kool-Aid out there too! I'm personally not quite as rosy as their forecast, and in fact, I'm wiling to put my money where my mouth is! To me, near-record everything great tells me we are ready for a downturn when the cracks start forming - not that things are set to keep booming for the next two years. I think we need to look beyond the good numbers in the last couple quarters, and look at the whole cycle.

    I specifically disagree with this analysis, and am willing to bet against it if you are up for it:

    "...we expect the Fed to begin normalizing interest rates by increasing the Federal Funds rate this month. … Thus, we forecast that by the end of 2016 the federal funds rate will be about 1.5 percent and it will approximate 3.25 percent at the end of 2017.”"

    I will bet you $500 that the lower bound of the target fed funds rate will be lower than 1.5% by the end of 2016, and lower than 3.25% by the end of 2017. If you want, we can do $250 for each year. You would be betting that the lower bound of the Fed's target fed funds is 1.5% or higher (currently .25%). I don't think the slowdown in global growth will allow it in many ways. Please accept in the forums, and we'll be on record here. We can settle each Jan 1st ;)

    I'm also not as rosy as you on tech. Things come, and things go. We hit a data anniversary last month as the total number of jobs in Silicon Valley MSA finally hit the same level they were before the dot-com bust.

    If this expansion does go on for another 2 years - and especially if real estate keeps gaining at these rates - I think we'll be better set up for some dislocations.. ;)

    Ray Dalio said the Fed has "tightened themselves into weakness".

    Soros and Bass have billions shorting the Yuan, China, and Asian currencies.

    Credit bubble like never before, and China is burning through reserves. Asian cash buyers have inflated the RE in primary markets. They looked to US RE as a safe haven for their capital (must have forgotten about '07).

    I agree 100% that we're at the top, and heading down with a couple dead cat bounces along the way.

    What the Fed needs to do is tell the market that they're not going to raise rates, and then eventually drop them, and another round of QE. This is the kicking the can down the street answer.

    I believe the Fed is stupid enough to raise rates, as we're already in a recession. 

    Too many factors that this bubble is popping, and no real sign of growth, but it's going to be a global credit crisis, and out of it will be a global reset of the credit cycle.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brian Lacey:
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    In his December essay, UCLA Anderson senior economist Jerry Nickelsburg looks at California’s most recent economic data, including trade through California’s ports, international arrivals at Los Angeles ....

    The current forecast is for continued steady gains in employment through 2017.

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-anderson-fo...

     Matt,
    I know you are an enormous fan of UCLA Anderson's forecast, but taste some other Kool-Aid out there too! I'm personally not quite as rosy as their forecast, and in fact, I'm wiling to put my money where my mouth is! To me, near-record everything great tells me we are ready for a downturn when the cracks start forming - not that things are set to keep booming for the next two years. I think we need to look beyond the good numbers in the last couple quarters, and look at the whole cycle.

    I specifically disagree with this analysis, and am willing to bet against it if you are up for it:

    "...we expect the Fed to begin normalizing interest rates by increasing the Federal Funds rate this month. … Thus, we forecast that by the end of 2016 the federal funds rate will be about 1.5 percent and it will approximate 3.25 percent at the end of 2017.”"

    I will bet you $500 that the lower bound of the target fed funds rate will be lower than 1.5% by the end of 2016, and lower than 3.25% by the end of 2017. If you want, we can do $250 for each year. You would be betting that the lower bound of the Fed's target fed funds is 1.5% or higher (currently .25%). I don't think the slowdown in global growth will allow it in many ways. Please accept in the forums, and we'll be on record here. We can settle each Jan 1st ;)

    I'm also not as rosy as you on tech. Things come, and things go. We hit a data anniversary last month as the total number of jobs in Silicon Valley MSA finally hit the same level they were before the dot-com bust.

    If this expansion does go on for another 2 years - and especially if real estate keeps gaining at these rates - I think we'll be better set up for some dislocations.. ;)

    Ray Dalio said the Fed has "tightened themselves into weakness".

    Soros and Bass have billions shorting the Yuan, China, and Asian currencies.

    Credit bubble like never before, and China is burning through reserves. Asian cash buyers have inflated the RE in primary markets. They looked to US RE as a safe haven for their capital (must have forgotten about '07).

    I agree 100% that we're at the top, and heading down with a couple dead cat bounces along the way.

    What the Fed needs to do is tell the market that they're not going to raise rates, and then eventually drop them, and another round of QE. This is the kicking the can down the street answer.

    I believe the Fed is stupid enough to raise rates, as we're already in a recession. 

    Too many factors that this bubble is popping, and no real sign of growth, but it's going to be a global credit crisis, and out of it will be a global reset of the credit cycle.

     I don't know if we are in a recession yet, but some indicators seem to point to softening similar to before and during the beginning of the last recession.. At a minimum, I think the risk of recession in the next 2 years has been understated by many, including the Fed. To think we are in a 3-year path to normalized rates is optimistic, IMHO. Keep in mind this graph is not just for small energy states. The leading indeces for populous states such as New York, Washington, and Texas have all declined pretty significantly, with almost all below 1 or zero in this graph, and many dipping below zero like they were at the beginning of (into) the last recession..

    Interesting you brought up credit in China. I saw this recent Bloomberg article, and the increase in credit was phenomenal!! Many times over what happened in US leading up to Great Recession. Can't find the graph, but if you can, post it up!!

    Interestingly, the Fed has not been as bad as

    @Account Closedand I expected in the past.. They tend to raise rates  before job growth is at its peak, and tend to start dropping rates after deceleration in job growth begins...

    1. @Amit M. , @Johnson H. , @Account Closed , any thoughts..? (btw, can't get the fed funds graph to post..)
  • Rental Property Investor · Hailey, ID · Member since 2015 · 218 posts · 143 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    Originally posted by @Brian Lacey:
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    In his December essay, UCLA Anderson senior economist Jerry Nickelsburg looks at California’s most recent economic data, including trade through California’s ports, international arrivals at Los Angeles ....

    The current forecast is for continued steady gains in employment through 2017.

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-anderson-fo...

     Matt,
    I know you are an enormous fan of UCLA Anderson's forecast, but taste some other Kool-Aid out there too! I'm personally not quite as rosy as their forecast, and in fact, I'm wiling to put my money where my mouth is! To me, near-record everything great tells me we are ready for a downturn when the cracks start forming - not that things are set to keep booming for the next two years. I think we need to look beyond the good numbers in the last couple quarters, and look at the whole cycle.

    I specifically disagree with this analysis, and am willing to bet against it if you are up for it:

    "...we expect the Fed to begin normalizing interest rates by increasing the Federal Funds rate this month. … Thus, we forecast that by the end of 2016 the federal funds rate will be about 1.5 percent and it will approximate 3.25 percent at the end of 2017.”"

    I will bet you $500 that the lower bound of the target fed funds rate will be lower than 1.5% by the end of 2016, and lower than 3.25% by the end of 2017. If you want, we can do $250 for each year. You would be betting that the lower bound of the Fed's target fed funds is 1.5% or higher (currently .25%). I don't think the slowdown in global growth will allow it in many ways. Please accept in the forums, and we'll be on record here. We can settle each Jan 1st ;)

    I'm also not as rosy as you on tech. Things come, and things go. We hit a data anniversary last month as the total number of jobs in Silicon Valley MSA finally hit the same level they were before the dot-com bust.

    If this expansion does go on for another 2 years - and especially if real estate keeps gaining at these rates - I think we'll be better set up for some dislocations.. ;)

    Ray Dalio said the Fed has "tightened themselves into weakness".

    Soros and Bass have billions shorting the Yuan, China, and Asian currencies.

    Credit bubble like never before, and China is burning through reserves. Asian cash buyers have inflated the RE in primary markets. They looked to US RE as a safe haven for their capital (must have forgotten about '07).

    I agree 100% that we're at the top, and heading down with a couple dead cat bounces along the way.

    What the Fed needs to do is tell the market that they're not going to raise rates, and then eventually drop them, and another round of QE. This is the kicking the can down the street answer.

    I believe the Fed is stupid enough to raise rates, as we're already in a recession. 

    Too many factors that this bubble is popping, and no real sign of growth, but it's going to be a global credit crisis, and out of it will be a global reset of the credit cycle.

     I don't know if we are in a recession yet, but some indicators seem to point to softening similar to before and during the beginning of the last recession.. At a minimum, I think the risk of recession in the next 2 years has been understated by many, including the Fed. To think we are in a 3-year path to normalized rates is optimistic, IMHO. Keep in mind this graph is not just for small energy states. The leading indeces for populous states such as New York, Washington, and Texas have all declined pretty significantly, with almost all below 1 or zero in this graph, and many dipping below zero like they were at the beginning of (into) the last recession..

    Interesting you brought up credit in China. I saw this recent Bloomberg article, and the increase in credit was phenomenal!! Many times over what happened in US leading up to Great Recession. Can't find the graph, but if you can, post it up!!

    Interestingly, the Fed has not been as bad as

    @Account Closedand I expected in the past.. They tend to raise rates  before job growth is at its peak, and tend to start dropping rates after deceleration in job growth begins...

    1. @Amit M. , @Johnson H. , @Account Closed , any thoughts..? (btw, can't get the fed funds graph to post..)

     http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/10/kyle-bass-china-ban...

    Kyle Bass and Soros have been the main causes for the news on China. Both short. Soros making another currency play.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Brian Lacey ,

    I think you're on to something and most investors underestimate the risks of a recession right now. Although I'm not quite as bearish as you (yet). I would note that Bass also has been betting for Japanese bond yields to increase for the last half decade, and Japanese 10yr just went negative yield, so record is not perfect, just like me ;)

    @Matt R.,

    I agree interest rates are very hard to call. But the 10yr is pushed by the market, and the overnight rate is controlled by the Fed. I am betting above that growth in the US, coupled with international friction from a global slowdown, will not allow the Fed to push fed funds to 1.75% by the end of 2016. The yield curve is already significantly flattened. If global low yields and weakness keep the 10yr US treasury low, Fed increases will push us into a negative yield curve.. Here is one measure. Doesn't look promising!

    "10's and 2's" (10 year treasury yield minus 2 year treasury yield)

    Of course, below is the most interesting yield curve display if you've never seen it. I don't  think I can post it in here, but it shows the yield curve changes over time relative to the stock market/economic cycle. Awesome!

    http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/yieldcurve.php
    Just click animate..

    @Gene Hacker , thanks for the vote. I know @Account Closed appreciates your economic perspective too, and I respect you a lot for that (plus anyone who likes good beer ;)  Care to share your thoughts?

    @Jay Hinrichs , I know you're active during all parts of the cycle, but are you watching the time exposure a little more closely now when you're lending on deals? Expecting deceleration? Or not too worried about it..?

    Hmmmm.....

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    My opinion, for what it's worth, is to take a good, long, hard look at Japan, because I think it is a sneak preview of where we in the US and others globally are headed. I don't want to believe that, but just because I don't want to believe it doesn't mean it won't happen. Economically we've been on a unsustainable path for quite some time, and I see little evidence that the underlying fundamental issues have been addressed; just more kicking the can down the road, but those kicks (QE, etc.) are becoming less and less effective or predictable as to the outcomes ... that which cannot continue forever will eventually end. The only question in my mind is when and how ... Happy President's Day!

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Justin Ashton,

    Personally, I believe Uber will make it. They're in the expansion phase so they're burning cash like there's no tomorrow. They will be forced to tighten their belt in the next year or two. If I recalled correctly, they're looking to raise another billion the next round. 

    These unicorn companies sure make a good story for discussions though. Thank god I don't rely on them for my investing strategy. I make my RE investment decisions based at trends since human behavior don't change be it now or 100 years ago.

    @Matt R., I'm with J all the way. However, I'll up the ante. How about a 2:1 ratio in your favor? You win $1,000 if you're right and lose $500 if you're wrong. If I'm fortunate enough to win, I'll donate all the money to St. Jude Hospital.  :>)

    @David Faulkner, Great questions. J and I believe the reason the housing correction was mild in 2001-2002 was due to Alan Greenspan cutting interest rate to 1%. This time around, the Fed is running out of "interest rate" ammunition so I expect the correction to be slightly more severe than 2001-2002 time frame. I wouldn't be surprised to see an average 20-25% correction for the Bay Area. Of course if history is any guidance. 

    The ultimate goal is to raise liquidity be it through selling a couple more properties this year or cash-out refi's. As history as shown, liquidity is what will get us through rough times and we can jump on opportunity when it's abundance. I'm leaning towards cash-out refi's unless I get offers I can't refused. The reason for cash-out refi's is in case I'm wrong and we're going the Japan route much faster than I believe. No 1031 Xchange into another market. I'd rather pay taxes than buying afar.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I'd like to poke at this a bit to understand better ... if there is deflation as in Japan or worse, then cash out refi would seem to be a risky move ... you borrowed cheap dollars and have to pay them back in progressively more expensive dollars, all the while the value of the property and the rents to pay the mortgage go down. Perhaps this is why you are saying cash out refinancing conservatively such that you can stay cash flow positive with a 20% reduction in rent, to give some cushion against this scenario? And you are doing it sooner rather than later to ensure the refinance will go through, as it likely would not if things go to pot, which is when you'd want to have cash on hand? On the other hand, if there is inflation, the opposite is true and so long as the interest rate is fixed you'll make out like a champ. Free and clear seems the way to be safest against both scenarios, but less "dry powder" and lower risk, lower return.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    @Minh Le: you and I both agree that Uber will be around for awhile! Just because VC activity is slowing and valuations are starting to tip over, doesn't mean we'll see a domino effect of successful private companies running out of cash. 

    The trouble brewing within the unicorn world could lead to much slower employment growth at best, and layoffs or failures within a not insignificant percentage of that unicorn list I sent (a higher risk within the thousands of smaller angel & VC-backed startups) at worst. They're all being asked by investors to cut their cash burn (which means freezing/cutting hiring). VC market thought leaders have been sounding the alarm on the effects of unjustified valuations (loudly here, here) for over a year. Now its happening. Public tech companies like Apple, Google, Salesforce, and FB are definitely not in the same boat. But that isn't to say that their flu shots make them completely immune. The debate rages on investment forums regarding Tesla's future given their continued need to raise cash from public markets.

    Since I'm here to learn strategies from smart folks like you and J. Martin, I can't say I have anything figured out. But, in watching this market the past year, I can't wrap my mind around any strategies that rely on Bay Area rents where they currently stand (or even down 15% ) to cover debt service since I believe that their rapid rise was intimately tied to this cycle tech employment growth. Don't you agree that any stumble in Tech employment will affect our local rents (and probably prices given interest rates already at 1%)? Maybe others are ignoring the risk going forward. Or maybe I'm just overstating the risk.

    The tide is just starting to go out... who is swimming naked? 

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @David Faulkner,

    This is why I don't like to get into the deflation and inflation debate. I'd rather talk in person because it's just too much to type on an iPhone.  :>)

    You're right. It's prudent to refinance now while the market is hot. It's true I'm paying back with more expensive dollars. However, I see cap rate compression should we go the Japan route. Those 4.5-5 caps would look fantastic if that were to happen so selling might turn out to be a mistake.

    If inflation were to hit us, cap rate should go up right? Under this scenario, rents should go up, which will likely off-set the cap rate expansion. 

    It seems like we're almost protected should the market go either way. However, l expect the deflation cycle for our market to be more prolonged than Japan.

    History has shown that it's likely deflation before inflation. I believe we have one more round to go before we're running out of room thus my prediction of 30-year fixed mortgage to be 2.75-3% during the next downturn. 

    As of now, I'm placing my bet based on my theory/believe. If we just have a 15% housing correction, I should be able to pick up those properties at the courthouse steps for 65-70 cents on the dollar. Having liquidity when the market is tight should be a huge plus in accomplishing my goal.

    Thoughts?

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Justin Ashton:

    ....Since I'm here to learn strategies from smart folks like you and J. Martin, I can't say I have anything figured out. But, in watching this market the past year, I can't wrap my mind around any strategies that rely on Bay Area rents where they currently stand (or even down 15% ) to cover debt service since I believe that their rapid rise was intimately tied to this cycle tech employment growth. Don't you agree that any stumble in Tech employment will affect our local rents (and probably prices given interest rates already at 1%)? Maybe others are ignoring the risk going forward. Or maybe I'm just overstating the risk.

    The tide is just starting to go out... who is swimming naked? 

    So the market is hot. It's getting towards the end of a boom. You say you can't find anything with any cash flow, let along if rents go down. The tech market is probably going to get shaken up one way or another, and you believe it may impact rents. We seem to all be in agreement to some extent.. So we don't have anything figured out? Sometimes I think the best strategy is just to do nothing and watch what happens. This can be confused by some as indecisiveness. Really, it can just be waiting until there is a better reward/risk profile in the market. ;) Travel, start a business, smoke a j, maybe all 3 lol. Whatever floats your boat until there are better deals!

    What goes up, most come down, right?

    Interestingly, the Russell 2000 significantly tromped the price of real estate appreciation over this period, right now at about 600% cumulative appreciation, compared to RE's 350% or so appreciation. That's before about 3-4X leverage would bring RE to about 1,000-1,300% over that time! lol

    Here's a better scale individually..

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    I am with you but where is this recession part going to come from in Bay area specifically? 

    What sectors are getting hit?

    Tech!

    Minh - we both know that there are markets in this country where tech has been drifting to.  Places where $500,000 while buying not quite a shack in SF, buys a very nice 4,000 sq.ft. Are you seeing  SF market taking a hit due in part to this exodus of tech? 

    This is what I am seeing and is the reason I am looking at those markets... I think they are behind SF in the cycle and have 7+ years to run. Thoughts?

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 47 posts · 40 votes
    10y

    Great thread, amazing charts you guys have collected.

    @Account Closed: Actually Uber is no longer expanding and is already starting to tighten their belts, they've downsized the number of call center personnel they're using in their customer service call center. This doesn't necessarily mean that the downturn has happened already (they may just be trying to reduce expenses before an IPO) but it's these little signs that you want to keep a watch for and eventually there will be enough little signs that you can't just ignore them anymore.

    @David Faulkner: To answer the question, what are we going to do about this, and what action are we taking? I personally will be socking money away and sitting on the sidelines (or investing it in other ways, e.g. shorting overvalued stocks), waiting to buy more real estate when the downturn happens. We're not overly leveraged and doing buy and hold, so as long as we can hold onto our rentals, we'll be fine in the long run.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Account Closed I appreciate the offer. I am pretty much interest rate neutral, no strong feelings. UCLA forecast is up we know.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 21 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:

    Really, it can just be waiting until there is a better reward/risk profile in the market. ;) Travel, start a business, smoke a j, maybe all 3 lol. Whatever floats your boat until there are better deals!

    You sir, are a wise man! this thread is why I'm on BP and plan to spend a little more tie going forward.   

    So we don't have anything figured out? Sometimes I think the best strategy is just to do nothing and watch what happens. This can be confused by some as indecisiveness. 

    I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone else beyond myself has not figured it out, and you're right that sitting out an inning while preparing for the next is a worthy strategy... Been learning a lot from you, J., your meetup, and the BP community. I only jumped in because I live in SF, am a startup guy, and hoped to offer some anecdotes on the ground truth. Having grown up in NorCal and seen many booms and busts, I gravitate to the data to help make sense of where we're at in this cycle. I thank you for serving it up for discussion. 

  • Investor · Milpitas, CA · Member since 2015 · 278 posts · 155 votes
    10y

    Originally posted by @J. Martin:

    What a great idea J.

    @Ben Leybovich

    Rents at the moment have not been dropping, at least not in SF proper. While it is true that tech is popping up in other places around the country, I wouldn't call it an exodus out of SF. I believe the main effect out of tech popping up in other places, is that the rent in those places increases.

    I am also of the opinion that Uber/Lyft will stay around for a while. Again, not every unicorn startup has an unsustainable business model. 

    Also, as others have mentioned, tech doesn't make up an extremely large portion of the living population in the bay area, but it seems like people are not taking into consideration what a lack of tech jobs will lead to. Who is powering boutique coffee shops in the Mission? Who are the large majority of patrons on Castro St in Mountain View during happy hour? If you walk around those places around 6PM, you'll see most people with some kind of tech swag. Now imagine if they're gone because their startup failed, who will keep those stores up?

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    I am with you but where is this recession part going to come from in Bay area specifically? 

    What sectors are getting hit?

    Tech!

    Minh - we both know that there are markets in this country where tech has been drifting to.  Places where $500,000 while buying not quite a shack in SF, buys a very nice 4,000 sq.ft. Are you seeing  SF market taking a hit due in part to this exodus of tech? 

    This is what I am seeing and is the reason I am looking at those markets... I think they are behind SF in the cycle and have 7+ years to run. Thoughts?

    I'm not Minh Le, nor do I play him on TV, but would think Portland, Seattle, Austin, and Raleigh would fit that description, though prices have already run up in those markets, just not a high as SF. True some of the big tech companies may be diversifying satellite operations into those markets, but I don't really see them closing down their bay area shops to move everything there ... any other ones where prices haven't run yet? Fargo (w/ Microsoft) maybe?

    Maybe I could follow your buddy @Brian Burke around and just buy wherever he does. Thoughts? :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Hailey, ID · Member since 2015 · 218 posts · 143 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David Faulkner:
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    I am with you but where is this recession part going to come from in Bay area specifically? 

    What sectors are getting hit?

    Tech!

    Minh - we both know that there are markets in this country where tech has been drifting to.  Places where $500,000 while buying not quite a shack in SF, buys a very nice 4,000 sq.ft. Are you seeing  SF market taking a hit due in part to this exodus of tech? 

    This is what I am seeing and is the reason I am looking at those markets... I think they are behind SF in the cycle and have 7+ years to run. Thoughts?

    I'm not Minh Le, nor do I play him on TV, but would think Portland, Seattle, Austin, and Raleigh would fit that description, though prices have already run up in those markets, just not a high as SF. True some of the big tech companies may be diversifying satellite operations into those markets, but I don't really see them closing down their bay area shops to move everything there ... any other ones where prices haven't run yet? Fargo (w/ Microsoft) maybe?

    Maybe I could follow your buddy @Brian Burke around and just buy wherever he does. Thoughts? :)

     Tech expansion is also a factor. Duolingo opened and stayed in Pittsburgh. Only a finite amount of space for these companies, would make sense as tech ages, and there are more companies out there, and growing, that they look to other markets. 

    Fargo isn't a bad idea at all if you ask me. There always has to be a catalyst.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich Exodus? Expansion plans might be more accurate for some of the biggies and additional expansion by the biggies to other areas like LA in Google's 900,000 sqft case. Austin is getting some big Apple action too. I read Google, FB, and Apple all still have expansion going in Bay area. I am guessing triple the LA and Austin expansion in terms of number of employees. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Johns Creek, GA · Member since 2009 · 870 posts · 664 votes
    10y

    @Min Le and @J Martin, 

    Very interesting discussion and I really like J Martin's analysis. I am no expert of the bay area housing market, but here are some macro views that i see. We are still 24 months away from the end of this 18 year bear market stock market cycle that started at the end of 1999. I think sometime within 24 months PE ratios will drop to single digits. Seeing how much printed money is out there in the money supply that have bubbled up this phony economy, the deleveraging that is about to take place will trump what we have seen in 2008. Crashing commodity prices will cause a lot pain in the emerging countries and I see atleast another 40% drop in emerging markets with India being the first to recover. The stock market that I am most bullish on longer term is India, especially the financial sector.  China is in a recession and the bay area will be impacted by this. Home prices all over bay area are unafforable by the average american family where the median home price vs the median household income is greater than 10. 

    If the S&P drops to single digit PE ratio, Nasdaq will also take a severe hit, which will also negatively impact the bay area housing market.  For crude oil to trade as low as $15-$20 is not out of the question, however oil will trade more in the $40-$60 range for most of the next 10 years. Usually in  a market cycle, deflation is much shorter in duration than inflation. When a massive develeraging takes place, there will be a massive reset of wealth transfer from the weaks hands to the strong hands. 

  • J. MartinPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    SILICON VALLEY vs SF

    Some questions about Silicon Valley vs SF popped up, so I dug into the data a little more. The MSA's with good data include San Jose - Sunnyvale - Santa Clara for Silicon Valley and SF - Redwood City - South San Francisco for SF. Coincidentally, the MSA's have almost the same number of employees, and perhaps not so coincidentally, job gains and losses tend to be very correlated between these two areas..

    Note that Silicon Valley JUST passed the same number of employees it had before the dot-com boom, and the SF area did a while back.. The price appreciation charts for the two areas are almost even more shockingly similar..

    And I threw in the East Bay just for sh*ts and giggles (and comparison). It kept up well with Silicon Valley until getting beat down in the last crisis, and never quite recovering to Silicon Valley or SF cumulative appreciation levels.. You might see it playing catch-up here at the end of the cycle..

    @Kathryn M.undefined I'm not sure if I see many differences between these two markets (except East Bay). But I guess depends how you measure them.. This is damn close!!

    If you use the SF-only index from Case-Shiller, it looks like Silicon Valley has surpassed SF in cumulative price appreciation..

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    I made the statement Bay area tech is not like Detroit...I should clarify both Apple and Google might be in the full on car biz along side Tesla in the 2020s. Apple is already getting sued for poaching talent in this category. 

    BTW who here would buy an electric Apple car? 

    Google Goes on Driverless Car Hiring Spree

    Digital Trends‎ - 1 day ago

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/google-driverles...

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 68 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovichwhat markets have you seen tech moving towards? I can think of a few but I am interested in your prospective. 

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