I'm so close, but don't want to get overwhelmed!

I'm so close, but don't want to get overwhelmed!

New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 11 votes
I have been searching for a property to house hack since June of this year, in Westchester, NY. I made a few offers and finally got an acceptance on one I really feel good about. The house was being advertised as a duplex and the asking price was $309,999. I initially offered 275k because it needs a lot of work, the seller countered with 295k and my agent advised me to go with it since there were other offers. The seller accepted the offer! I am doing a Fha 203k loan so I had the inspector walk through the house with the contractor, they found that the house needs about 150k of work and there were some structural issues, mold, and water damage. Also there was no seller's disclosure, still not quite too sure what that is so please if anyone could clarify that I'd appreciate it! So I had my agent go back with a lower offer and with that I got the price down to 287500. Sellers also agreed to paying closing. Now with the 203k loan with all of the renovations and fees, which I will explain shortly, comes out to be 185k including the cash reserve of 22k. The fees are for the architect and permits because apparently the house is not a legal two family it is setup to be one with two water meters but just not legal. So where I stand now is waiting for the lawyers and loan officer to do their stuff so that I can go into contract and hand over my downpayment which is only 3.5%. The agent said it should be another 3-4wks after that, for when I go into closing. Then 4-6months for renovations to be complete and I can move in! The house has: a basement that is big enough to be a one bedroom apt,first floor is one bedroom unit, second floor has two bedrooms, office, kitchen, bathroom but no living room, the third floor has two bedrooms, bathroom, living room, small alcove that can be converted into a kitchenette. I am thinking about making the smaller bedroom and office on the second floor into a living room and then it would become a one bedroom unit. Rents for one bedroom units in Mt. Vernon range between 1400-1600. Two bedrooms are 1600 and up. So ideally with no vacancies this house can produce when all conversions are done, at the very least 5,800 a month in rents. Taxes are 13000 a year. I am only having the contractor for now convert home into a two family completely and then will do rest of conversion at a later date. Here are my questions: When do I start looking at insurance and what kind? Any suggestions for home security? Should I put bars on my windows on the first floor and basement? Should I have the oil tank removed in the 203k renovations? Is there anything I am missing and or should consider? Thank you! Look forward to hearing from you all!
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Real Estate Agent · Buena Park, CA · Member since 2016 · 743 posts · 424 votes
9y
Good Lord,that's a lot to deal with for a first time property purchase.These important questions you are asking should have been answered by your Realtor and your contractors before you made offers on the property. Have you determined the after repair value of the property once you actually get it finished and move in ready? You will need to know that to figure out your eventual monthly costs.Your Realtor and mortgage bankers should be helping you find the proper insurance you will need to carry.Are oil tanks still used in that area? If not,dump it and get something new and modern.A sellers disclosure is the paperwork from the seller telling you everything they know for a fact about the property.If they know about any defects that might affect the value of the property,they must disclose it in writing during the inspection period.They can not hide anything from you like a known roof leak,bad plumbing,rats and termites,etc.Before you proceed with the sale,I would have a serious talk with your Realtors,contractors,and mortgage lenders about whether this project is going to be too much to handle and still be affordable when the work is completed many months from now.
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  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Raina B., congrats on taking action. My instinct tells me that you should go with your end-game plan straight away, as far as applying for permits - NOW. And yes, if the oil tank should eventually go, get it done, NOW.

    I reckon if you run out of loaned money before the rehab is completed - welcome to EVERY developer's world.

    I also reckon if you don't apply for that extra basement flat PERMIT now, it'll be even harder/costlier later!

    But sure, delay completion of the basement flat for as long as possible, if you must. Just HAVING the permit though, will increase the value of the whole property by MUCH more than the cost of obtaining the permit! Think about THAT! My 2c.

  • Real Estate Agent · Buena Park, CA · Member since 2016 · 743 posts · 424 votes
    9y
    Good Lord,that's a lot to deal with for a first time property purchase.These important questions you are asking should have been answered by your Realtor and your contractors before you made offers on the property. Have you determined the after repair value of the property once you actually get it finished and move in ready? You will need to know that to figure out your eventual monthly costs.Your Realtor and mortgage bankers should be helping you find the proper insurance you will need to carry.Are oil tanks still used in that area? If not,dump it and get something new and modern.A sellers disclosure is the paperwork from the seller telling you everything they know for a fact about the property.If they know about any defects that might affect the value of the property,they must disclose it in writing during the inspection period.They can not hide anything from you like a known roof leak,bad plumbing,rats and termites,etc.Before you proceed with the sale,I would have a serious talk with your Realtors,contractors,and mortgage lenders about whether this project is going to be too much to handle and still be affordable when the work is completed many months from now.
  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    As soon as I read.....

    A - "I have been searching for a property to house hack since June of this year, in Westchester, NY. I made a few offers and finally got an acceptance on one"

    B - "I had the inspector walk through the house with the contractor, they found that the house needs about 150k of work and there were some structural issues, mold, and water damage...."

    C - "Also there was no seller's disclosure...", 

    D - "the seller countered with 295k and my agent advised me to go with it since there were other offers....", 

    ........I was deathly afraid to read the rest...but I did anyway.  I should have stopped reading, but it's too late now.

    OK.  Here are my questions:

    1 - If you are paying $287,500 for the house, and the rehab estimate is at $150k, that means you are paying $437,500 for the property (before cost overruns).  Is that correct?

    2 - What are your plans for paying for the cost overruns on rehab when (not if...when) they come up?

    3 - If your DP is only 3.5% ($15,312), then your loan is for $422,188.  Is that correct?

    4 - If the above numbers are correct, and I assume a 30 year loan at 4%, your monthly payment will be about $2100/month.  Since you are only doing the rehab to get 2 units (I assume the 2 - 2 beds), rents will max out at $3200/month.  Based on the taxes you've stated (and they will go up once you're done with the rehab), and the insurance payments, your monthly expenses (just counting those two) will be at least $1400/month.  So, if my math is correct, you will be losing $300/month in negative cash flow.  Are my numbers correct?

    There are other really big problems I see here...most of them were there from the beginning.

    Bottom line is this. REI is a numbers game. The numbers that don't matter are the ones with street names behind them. The only numbers that do matter, are the ones with positive $$$$$$ signs in front. The goal isn't to get the property...it's to get the deal.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Battle:

    Good Lord,that's a lot to deal with for a first time property purchase.These important questions you are asking should have been answered by your Realtor and your contractors before you made offers on the property. Have you determined the after repair value of the property once you actually get it finished and move in ready? You will need to know that to figure out your eventual monthly costs.Your Realtor and mortgage bankers should be helping you find the proper insurance you will need to carry.Are oil tanks still used in that area? If not,dump it and get something new and modern.A sellers disclosure is the paperwork from the seller telling you everything they know for a fact about the property.If they know about any defects that might affect the value of the property,they must disclose it in writing during the inspection period.They can not hide anything from you like a known roof leak,bad plumbing,rats and termites,etc.Before you proceed with the sale,I would have a serious talk with your Realtors,contractors,and mortgage lenders about whether this project is going to be too much to handle and still be affordable when the work is completed many months from now.

     Can I vote 10 times for this post?

  • Scott WolfPro Member
    Lender · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 957 votes
    9y

    Adding on top of that, FHA 203K loans stipulate that the owner live in one side. So the total rent isn't realistic, as one of the units will be occupied by you @Raina B.  Also, you need to be sure that the basement can even be made into an apartment.

  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    @brentcoombs thanks for the advice I'll try to work on the permits for the two additional apartments as soon as I can, especially since with the loan I'll already have the architect handy. I've also told the inspector to include the oil tank removal into the project.
  • Investor · Tromsø, Norway (Europe) · Member since 2015 · 431 posts · 194 votes
    9y

    @Raina B. Having worked with insurance both in the US and abroad I can recommend you begin building a relationship with local insurance agents or brokers as soon as you can. This becomes more and more important as your portfolio grows. Although one shouldn't buy anything an insurance agent throws at you, it doesn't hurt making the connection and getting to know some of them.

  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 11 votes
    9y

    @brandonbattle thank you for your input. A sellers disclosure is everything the seller knows about the property. Well these sellers have proven to be a tad bit shady, don't know why. The fha inspector did a very good job of digging up any issues. unfortunately there are plenty properties in Westchester that still have oil tanks. I will get it removed and that shall continue to be the first thing to do on each property I invest in moving forward. 

    @joevilleneuve your numbers are for the most part correct. The reserves for the reno are built into the loan amount for 22k. Thanks for the feedback!

    @Scott Wolf yes I shall be residing in one of the apartments, that rent was just the number I'm projecting for the future. I did ask the inspector about the basement conversions and with the architect I'll know shortly whether or not I could do it. Thanks for the feedback.

    @Ingrid J. Great advice I will definitely start forming relationships with insurance agents and brokers. 

  • Investor / Vendor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 949 votes
    9y

    @Raina B.

    Bars on windows of first floor and basement if you are in a high crime area is a good idea but really that question is putting the cart before the horse.

    What is the ARV of the property? I hope it's well over $450k or your first deal is going to end up being a costly lesson!

  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Ray Lai yes thankfully it is in the upward 470s. The comps for the properties of this caliber in the neighborhood are running in the mid 500ks I don't really see value going down in this market either, it has been steadily growing for a couple of years now.
  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y

    @joevilleneuve your numbers are for the most part correct. The reserves for the reno are built into the loan amount for 22k. Thanks for the feedback!

    If those numbers are correct, why are you doing the deal?

  • Real Estate Broker · Bronx, NY · Member since 2011 · 597 posts · 341 votes
    9y

    @Raina B.

    Sounds like you definitely jumped all the way in on this project. Converting to a 2 family is not that simple, have you factored in on how much time it would take? Especially when converting over from oil to gas and having to wait for Con Edison to turn you on. I've seen projects delayed due to this. Make sure you have reserves for that.

    As for the property disclosure, here in this area, usually the attorney's has the seller give a $500 credit back at closing for not doing one. They do not want their client to be held liable for anything they might've missed. 

    Now I must ask, at the end of the day, were you not able to find any 2 families decent enough in the 500k  range? Would have not been just a little better to buy something in much better condition maybe a little pricier? Correct me if I'm wrong and mortgage bankers please chime in, a 203k loan is usually about a .25% higher than normal interest rates. That means over time your mortgage with a 203k at this price will be about the same amount as something around 550k. And like @Joe Villeneuve said real estate is all about those numbers. Good luck Raina, let us know how it turns out. 

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2017 · 321 posts · 157 votes
    9y

    Ssuper congratulations. I'm from MV, so I know the area in and out. Be careful and try to avoid to south end area.  

  • Investor / Vendor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 949 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Raina B.:

    Ray Lai yes thankfully it is in the upward 470s. The comps for the properties of this caliber in the neighborhood are running in the mid 500ks I don't really see value going down in this market either, it has been steadily growing for a couple of years now.

    That's good. Mid-500s and you have a tiny bit of breathing room, but with any cost overruns it could easily be purchasing at market value.

    One important thing, if you see other homes in the area with bars on the windows, it's a sign that you're in a war zone unless it's a gentrified area where only a few houses have kept it. Why is this relevant? Finding high quality tenants for war zones is difficult. That's why most of us would advise you go for at least C+ areas and avoid the war zones because paper profits is different from actual profits if you can't rent out to people who can pay on time, or won't destroy your place.

  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    @Isiah Ferguson,thank you I'm from the Bronx right there on the borderline of Mt. Vernon and it's amazing how much it's changing and just how quickly! @Ceaser Rosas, yeah tell me about it! The beauty about this house it's already is converted into a two family just a permit was never put in for it. Most of the money for Reno are for the overall house. That's interesting about the oil tank conversion, I will keep that in mind. Yes I did get that $500 credit! In regards to finding a better property for a little more money, has been an interesting struggle. My agent and I did but the houses we did put offers in on and I'd be one of the top offers but just not the chosen one. Some of the reasons that I was told was attributed to me going with a fha and not a conventional loan. I did speak with my lender about repackaging my loan after the first year so that my rate can go down. @RayLai this is an area that is being gentrified. I think I was asking off of the old neighborhood and not more so what the new is. . Again thanks for the advice everyone.
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