Disaster!!Out of State Lessons/ ROI Found after bumpy Start

Disaster!!Out of State Lessons/ ROI Found after bumpy Start

Rental Property Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2015 · 112 posts · 142 votes

Ohhh shooot! I often hear I can't invest in this market. I get it! I went to look in a less expensive market myself. My answer,  Dayton, Ohio. My husband had been there for training  for the AirForce so we had a little knowledge. In our heads it seemed like a good deal. The idea was ......buy a house or several which were turn key and preferably section 8. I found a flipper who did rehab, rented them out and had a management company in place. Essentially it was turn key all the way. We thought  we had  done this right.  The numbers and the rehab that had been done looked good and even if we had missed something we were in for less than 70,000 on every property.  We felt like we did all the things:

  • We went to go visit the properties and met the property manager.  
  • We drove around neighborhoods and spoke to a variety of agents and brokers as well. 

Cash on cash seemed great. Imagine, 58,000 for a triplex that was in good condition that was grossing  almost 1450 a month.  We knew going into Dayton that appreciation was not going to be likely or much if at all. Despite this we went in on our first property and followed quickly with another 7.  What we had not counted on was the tenants that had been put in these units or the management companies. Our first management company had the worst books ever. Yes, they always answered the phone but that was about it. The books were off on a regular basis and tenants were never served with notices. Those wholesalers, Right Choice Investments put whoever in these units to show they were rented. We switched management companies but that cost us money as we  were ending the contract early. Anything to get out, was the goal. As it turns out, I went from bad to worse. My next choice had been RPM. This was a huge company that I was certain would be able to do the work. When we switched , we had 2 tenants that needed to be evicted and one unit that was empty.  In the six months that I had been with RPM it took them 3 months to do the evictions, and the unrented unit never did get rented as they "don't do section 8." As it turns out, they never actually visited that property. The 2 evictions became 3 and each unit was left completely trashed. I was given bids for the work that literally included 5$ for a light bulb being changed and 13,000 in rehad work to 700 sq feet. From the pictures you would think maybe 2000. There was nothing structural, flooring, repaint and clean out. I considered going to Dayton myself and just doing the work. This company did everything by departments so it was never the correct department. Needless to say, we left this rental company as well but I was over the edge. How was I ever going to make this work!  I actually found someone on BP and was just going to discount and dump all of them through a local agent when a third rental management company was suggested.  Bob at Roost has been awesome.   We are rehabbed at normal rates, rented to good paying tenants and are well on the path to the success we had hoped for to begin. Lessons were learned along the way for sure BP. The please do not do as I did lessons in all of this are :

  •  Go slow- I didn't wait long enough to figure out that it was or wasn't working before I bought 7 more properties and suddenly was in it for 15 units.
  •  Really look to see that tenants are paying ( also I have learned that Section 8 and other housing agencies will pay but it might (will likely) be late depending on the agency. If you need this cash -(all of it to cover your bills each month) BE CAREFUL!
  • Management matters-  They will likely answer a phone call to get your business but go off of referrals after that. If I had to do this again I would have asked them for an estimate on a rehab that had been quoted to someone else. Previous management companies were charging if it was leased or not - there was no incentive to have it leased up.. I feel dumb that I didn't catch this no incentive piece. This agency also does not charge a lease up fee if the previous tenant has to be evicted. I love this as I FEEL like it ensures skin in the game. I wish I would have looked for this before.
  •  Tenants- I didn't vet these tenants and just trusted it would be ok. They had no income. I never asked for rental aps and I should have. 

Good Luck BP! It can be done. I / we are doing this and the investment is good despite a SUPER ROCKY start.

All the best!

Paige

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Darrin CareyPro Member
Lender · Dayton, OH · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 705 votes
8y

@Paige Kelsey It's great to see you sharing your experiences. Dayton really is a great market to invest in.

Fortunately, on your third attempt you found one of the good local property managers. The first two you had are both have terrible reputations locally for the reasons you mentioned. Not to mention the first one is unlicensed, or at least was the last time I checked. Unfortunately, you are not their first victim, I doubt that you will be the last.

It really emphasizes a couple points.
  1. Property Management is absolutely critical to your success. 
  2. Get referrals from other investors whenever possible.

Best of Luck to you, it sounds like you're all set to do well.

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  • Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 316 posts · 130 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Glad things are going well now, others may disagree, but if I were going to do section 8, would not want to do it long distance, way too many problem tenants.

     Every strategy has a weakness or a flaw and knowing your preference is always important.  In the case outlined there were multiple problems.  In my view, the key issue was not having the right property management team place.  You need some due diligence and some luck simultaneously.

  • Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 316 posts · 130 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Gary Floring:

    According to the U.S. Census, Dayton has been declining for 50 years straight. Here are the population numbers:

    1970243,601−7.1%
    1980193,536−20.6%
    1990182,044−5.9%
    2000166,179−8.7%
    2010141,759−14.7%

    With huge and consistent population decreases like these decade after decade, I simply do not understand why ANY investor would put their money into an imploding city like that!?!  Over 100,000 people....gone in just 40 years!

    Not to mention the fact that most of the residents remaining are those who can't afford to move out, are on Section 8, etc.  Who actually wants to constantly deal with evictions, trashed units, drugs, crime, etc.? And then try to manage a mess like that from out of state?!?

    Enlighten me, please.............

    !

     Excellent point and question.  What are the current population trends for the city and state?  https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/flat-growth-dayton-seen-good-sign/Vmq6Tp2RQRjCMjkcsfDliI/

  • Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 316 posts · 130 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Paige Kelsey:

    @Jerry Pollio so I really have done pretty much everything every one of these pod cast talk about. I started with a live in flip and did not quit my day job.Every cent went to more property. I lived in one house, rented it as a vacation rental and moved in with friends for a while. My next wss a live in flip -bottom line is I was able to build cash fairly quickly and to go to dayton prices were low. I have a single family that I bought for 27 and it nets 600 a month. That's not too long to pay off time. It's a cute little brick house and is doing fine. Bottom line I was able to scale quickly from other investments and working full time along with.. these houses are less expensive.Lets just say... I can't buy even the worst of properties for under 200k here in Portland/ Vancouver. Is it risky ... maybe but I worry we are close to the top of the market in Portland/ Vancouver or in the stock market. I think investing in any of that has risks too. Pick your poison - this was hard at first and I definitely got some lumps in along the way but education doesn't come cheap- hopefully it will be a little better for someone else from learning from some of my mishaps.

     Hmmm, Did you catch a bad beat, as they say in poker?  Yes.  I do believe, based on the information posted, that you can and will recover.  Will it be painful and stressful?  Yes.  However, your portfolio can recover with correct internal and external re-positioning.  Stay encourage and get ready for your next plunge. 

  • Investor · Saint Charles, MO · Member since 2016 · 118 posts · 91 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Paige Kelsey:

    Lessons were learned along the way for sure BP... :

    •  Really look to see that tenants are paying...

    The fact that you included this speaks volumes. Maybe you should reevaluate and just buy index funds. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2015 · 112 posts · 142 votes
    8y

    @Gary Florin- if you will look at the post I am in no way trying to convince anyone to do as I did and I feel like I did explain why I chose Dayton. If it wouldn't work for you... that's ok but I was simply saying some of my lessons I had learned so that others would not do the same. You do you Gary! I kinda liken this to how on almost every podcast Josh and Brandon tear into Detroit pretty hard. Despite that there are investors chuckling all the way to the bank because they made it work. I like the military bases being in Dayton and I actually think it has a lot to offer. I live in Vancouver/ Portland Oregon and have property in Colorado i couldnt touch any invedtment here for under 250k. Even if i did and we havr population growth that you lovr Gary... in no way am i making morecthan what i would in the stock market.- Here's the thing - I made 18% last year on a income that is guaranteed from section 8 on a little single family brick home dor example. I paid 25k . The house is in ac class house rented to a mom and her 2 kids. They take good care of the house and the lawn looks fine. They have terrier mixed dog and she had a job but represents working poor america. You are welcome to contiinue to show me the stats all day Gary and maybe to you my little 25k home is trash but I kinda like it thank you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2014 · 57 posts · 34 votes
    8y

    When we chose to move to Dayton in 2006 it was the best choice in our options at that time. For us it turned out to be a great choice. Every place has its ups and downs-pros and cons.  Business is coming back to Dayton after most of the auto manufacturing, etc left.

    We currently manage 225 properties from $450 to $1600 a month. That is good or bad rent, depending on what area of the country you are in.  It is good here, as it is a nice choice for those that are looking for a nice home to live in, considering what  their income level is.  We have great investors we work with that are willing to keep their properties up and don't slumlord. I also personally own properties in the Dayton area and doing well.  Reading all the posts on Bigger Pockets helps. So thanks, everybody for your input.

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 523 posts · 476 votes
    8y

    Hi Paige, thanks for sharing! I'm glad to see that things got back on track after the rough start - I've seen too many folks give up after some hiccups. Glad to see you didn't. 

    I have a question for you: Are you still doing Section 8 or other government programs, on your Dayton properties now? And what, if anything, have you been doing differently in terms of screening tenants now, vs. before?

    I am looking into properties in some areas in Southern California (where I live) that are transitioning, but still have a good amount of voucher tenants, from whom you could actually get good cash flow (or so I've heard from other investors in the area who've done it). I'm open to these programs, if I can limit my risk at least a little bit with proper screening, so any feedback would be appreciated. Thank you! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2017 · 45 posts · 37 votes
    8y

    @Paige Kelsey thanks so much for sharing your experience! I've read so many success stories on here that it would be easy to believe that RE investing is all cash flow and no headaches. I think its especially important to learn from others about the good and the bad, especially if you are just getting started and don't have any skin in the game. 

    I just purchased my first two SFRs (out of state and turnkey) and so far so good, but its way too soon to draw any conclusions. I want to see a few rent checks hit first before I start to buy more. 

    Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience. 

  • Investor · Monsey, NY · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    8y

    @Paige Kelsey Thanks for sharing your experience! Its insightful and a good education

    @Lane Kawaoka , @Jesse S.  Can you please PM me the name of the TK company you invested with?

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Paige Kelsey Thanks for sharing! Yes, sometimes there's a reason properties can be so cheap. And not all property management companies are the same...that's for sure!! ;) 

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y
    Paige Kelsey you’re right someone did say that, I’m mainly just making the same point that they did that these Low rents will be much more difficult to manage from afar. I wish you luck. Thanks for sharing !
  • Rental Property Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 8 votes
    8y

    Thanks for sharing, @Paige Kelsey. I recently dove into the Dayton market as an out-of-state investor and can't say enough about the importance of solid property management. Best of luck in your future RE endeavors!

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Hey @Paige Kelsey - great write up and thanks for sharing.  It's tough to talk about the mistakes we make and how they affect us.  I, for one, appreciate the candor and the willingness to teach.

    I'm in the Denver market, but looking to go out of state (for all the same reasons you mention).  As I read your story, I realized that I am in the process of doing exactly what you did.  I am not into the process far enough yet to have a bad manager, but when I do get to that step, I will be sure to apply the lessons here.

    Thank you SO much for sharing.  Your story is invaluable to me.

  • Rental Property Investor · FPO, AP · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 9 votes
    8y

    @Paige Kelsey thank you for your contributions and post. So many negative nancy post but your post is great for people like me who are investing from out of state (out of country, stationed overseas) and will be for awhile. Good luck, I am looking into purchasing books and watching videos from the section8 bible. Of the two properties im under contract for (2plex & SF) one tenant is section8. Hope this helps

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