Refi appraisal came in very low

Refi appraisal came in very low

Hamburg, NY · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 1 vote
I am just on the tail end of my first investment and I am a little disheartened. Purchased a duplex property in very rough shape on the inside and outside. Completely updated both sides including, new furnaces, electrical plumbing, kitchens and baths. Outside got fresh paint, all new windows, soffits and gutters. I purchased the property for 49k. I have about 25k into the project. So my all in number was 75k. I projected my ARV to be at least 100k when I bought it based on the sale if a property 4 houses down that sold for 93k with zero updates inside. Ideally I would have liked the appraisal to come in at 95-110k on the low side and maybe I could get 120k on the high side, maybe. In any case, appraisal came back two days ago at 80k. I am really dumbfounded by this. How can that be. They even used the comp a few houses away. I paid cash for the property and i would like to get my money out to do it again but I am thinking of just walking away from this lender. ThIs Is a cash out refI Any suggestions?
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Chris MasonPro Member
Moderator
Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Christopher Socha:
@Russell Brazil is that just the nature of refi? I would have assumed my unit being fully remodeled should be worth at least the comp, I was expectIng more. Perhaps I was looking at value incorrectly.

 I just had a refi appraisal come in above all but one comp, within 1% of what I was expecting, basically on the money, in the East Bay Area.

You really have to walk the appraiser through every single update and hand him or her a CMA to have the best chance possible. In addition, break out every reason you acquired the property for less than fair market value. In my case I tore into the listing agent and the myriad ways they did a horrible job representing their client's interests.

Spreadsheet template:

TOP HALF OF PAGE:

Addresses of comps - price - date - bed/bath - special feature(s) of house - condition

Properties listed here with data

Median / Mean / Lowest / Highest chart

Commentary

BOTTOM HALF OF PAGE:

Left side, improvements since purchase bullet points.

Right side, details about how/why you got the property for less than fair market value, again bullet points. 

Top half of the page is basically you making it easy for the appraiser to hit a value you want by doing their research for them.

Bottom half is information the appraiser would not otherwise have access to.

Square feet is intentionally left off of the top half since appraisers consider it a garbage data point. You're immediately setting yourself apart from all the real estate agents out there who think they know how to valuate real estate by replacing square feet (and price per square foot) with features of house, which may mean the appraiser takes your analysis more seriously. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y

    You need comparable sales that are more expensive than your target price. If the comparable sale a few doors down was $93k, then it should be expected that your number is going to come in lower than that number. On a refinance appraisal you should expect downward value adjustments from the comps.

  • Hamburg, NY · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    7y
    @Russell Brazil is that just the nature of refi? I would have assumed my unit being fully remodeled should be worth at least the comp, I was expectIng more. Perhaps I was looking at value incorrectly.
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y
    @Christopher Socha It is hard enough to get a value adjustment on a comp upward on a sale...and on a sale there is a comtract price to justify value. Downward value adjustments are what you will get more often on a refinance, so a number lower than the comps is what is to be expected.
  • Hamburg, NY · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    7y
    @Russell Brazil thanks for the info. That’s good to know going forward.
  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y
    @Russell Brazil. This thread illustrates why it’s not so easy to do a BRRR as everyone thinks. It’s in the banks interests to have conservative appraisals and the appraisers work for the banks..
  • Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    @Christopher Socha try another bank or mortgage lender someone will give the Value that you need. 

  • Hamburg, NY · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    7y
    @Pierre Elize that is one of my next moves. However I do not want to pay for another appraisal unless I am reasonably certain it will come out higher.
  • Real Estate Investor · Palm Beach County, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    I’d dispute the first appraisal. If there’s a non rehabbed property that is otherwise apples for apples that sold for $93k and yours is fully rehabbed I would certainly be expecting an appraisal above that. I’d have the lender order another appraisal (at no further expense to you) and/or find a new lender.

  • Guy with Great Hair · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    it happens.

    I had an appraisal come in low earlier this year, cost me to leave a bit more than I like in a deal.

    Worry about the next one, be conservative with your comps.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y

    A lot of rehab can be skipped if you are just trying to appraise for a refi.  None of my refi appraisers have cared about a new furnace or windows or roof, as long as whats there is functional.   They also didn't care about the yard. Formica, sheet vinyl, carpet, old white applianes?  Oh well, it's a rental.  I was kind of amazed.

    They care about peeling paint and whether the smoke and monoxide alarms are installed and work.  They also care about water heater straps (in WA) and if there is earth to wood contact.  Research which boxes they are checking.  I love buying a 'non-bankable' house with cash and making it bankable. Know what that means and only do the minimum.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Christopher Socha:
    @Russell Brazil is that just the nature of refi? I would have assumed my unit being fully remodeled should be worth at least the comp, I was expectIng more. Perhaps I was looking at value incorrectly.

     I just had a refi appraisal come in above all but one comp, within 1% of what I was expecting, basically on the money, in the East Bay Area.

    You really have to walk the appraiser through every single update and hand him or her a CMA to have the best chance possible. In addition, break out every reason you acquired the property for less than fair market value. In my case I tore into the listing agent and the myriad ways they did a horrible job representing their client's interests.

    Spreadsheet template:

    TOP HALF OF PAGE:

    Addresses of comps - price - date - bed/bath - special feature(s) of house - condition

    Properties listed here with data

    Median / Mean / Lowest / Highest chart

    Commentary

    BOTTOM HALF OF PAGE:

    Left side, improvements since purchase bullet points.

    Right side, details about how/why you got the property for less than fair market value, again bullet points. 

    Top half of the page is basically you making it easy for the appraiser to hit a value you want by doing their research for them.

    Bottom half is information the appraiser would not otherwise have access to.

    Square feet is intentionally left off of the top half since appraisers consider it a garbage data point. You're immediately setting yourself apart from all the real estate agents out there who think they know how to valuate real estate by replacing square feet (and price per square foot) with features of house, which may mean the appraiser takes your analysis more seriously. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y

    @Chris Mason Since we've been in a really strong market.....if Im making an offer on a property where I can get an appraisal contingency (suburbs I can, city I cant) and I know the listing agent is going to be subpar and not get the property to appraise (in my opinion this is the listing agents #1 duty) Ive been putting into the contract "seller will cure any appraisals issues that arise by making any required repairs and adjusting the price down to the appraisal value."  

    That cuts out me having to go back and renegotiate when some dufus of an agent doesnt know how to make sure the property appraises.

  • Hamburg, NY · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    7y
    @Brian Garrett I am going to try to prove value with actual numbers and comps. I know it may not work but it’s worth a shot. It is truly an apples to apples comparison. That’s why I can’t understand how the appraisal doesn‘t come in at the very least, at 93k. At least I could swallow that and move on. It just sold 5 months ago and nothing on the inside was updated. Maybe I’m wrong and thinking 100k is not possible. This is definitely one of the points to the BRRR strategy that big many people talk about. Your limited by a potentially conservative appraisal.
  • Lagrangeville, NY · Member since 2017 · 144 posts · 218 votes
    7y

    FWIW, I had a very similar experience...Purchased distressed duplex, fixed it up, hoping for a 175K appraisal.  Did not come in that high.  Came in at 155K.  I felt how you feel right now.  I ended up calling a few more banks and paid for another appraisal.  This second appraisal came in at 175K and I got my 30K back!  Happy Ending....Hope you do also

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

    @Chris Mason Since we've been in a really strong market.....if Im making an offer on a property where I can get an appraisal contingency (suburbs I can, city I cant) and I know the listing agent is going to be subpar and not get the property to appraise (in my opinion this is the listing agents #1 duty) Ive been putting into the contract "seller will cure any appraisals issues that arise by making any required repairs and adjusting the price down to the appraisal value."  

    That cuts out me having to go back and renegotiate when some dufus of an agent doesnt know how to make sure the property appraises.

     That's an interesting perspective; local to me I haven't really seen that, but I have seen a lot of buyer's agents insist that they host the appraisal, which we happily accommodate and I prefer. I started to make it my SOP absent other direction a while back, but that only lasted 5 minutes until a listing agent with a New Yaaawk accent flipped out that the appraiser called the buyer's agent, heh.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Zaug:

    FWIW, I had a very similar experience...Purchased distressed duplex, fixed it up, hoping for a 175K appraisal.  Did not come in that high.  Came in at 155K.  I felt how you feel right now.  I ended up calling a few more banks and paid for another appraisal.  This second appraisal came in at 175K and I got my 30K back!  Happy Ending....Hope you do also

     A great point to take away from here, which is something I tell so many of my clients...an appraisal is simply 1 persons opinion of the value of the property.  Way too many people put too much weight on an appraisal. Here you had 2 different people value the property at nearly 13% different from one another.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    @Russell Brazil  this is off the topic..

    but some scammer hacked @Caleb Heimsoth  @Christopher Socha  Christophers name and created an account

    christopher Socha F   then hit me up on PM as a lender.. total scammer of course..   I hope thats not what the bad people are going to start doing taking a real BP members name and then just put a letter after it.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Russell Brazil  this is off the topic..

    but some scammer hacked @Caleb Heimsoth  @Christopher Socha  Christophers name and created an account

    christopher Socha F   then hit me up on PM as a lender.. total scammer of course..   I hope thats not what the bad people are going to start doing taking a real BP members name and then just put a letter after it.

    Are you saying someone made a fake profile of me?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Caleb Heimsoth:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Russell Brazil  this is off the topic..

    but some scammer hacked @Caleb Heimsoth  @Christopher Socha  Christophers name and created an account

    christopher Socha F   then hit me up on PM as a lender.. total scammer of course..   I hope thats not what the bad people are going to start doing taking a real BP members name and then just put a letter after it.

    Are you saying someone made a fake profile of me?

    sorry Caleb I accidently tagged you.. NO they made a fake one  of Christopher Socha    then just put the letter F after his last name.  

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Russell Brazil  this is off the topic..

    but some scammer hacked @Caleb Heimsoth  @Christopher Socha  Christophers name and created an account

    christopher Socha F   then hit me up on PM as a lender.. total scammer of course..   I hope thats not what the bad people are going to start doing taking a real BP members name and then just put a letter after it.

     Jay, can you send me a link to their profiles.

  • Gaithersburg, MD · Member since 2009 · 80 posts · 47 votes
    7y

    Put in tenants and sell it on BP as a turnkey for 135K.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Russell Brazil  this is off the topic..

    but some scammer hacked @Caleb Heimsoth  @Christopher Socha  Christophers name and created an account

    christopher Socha F   then hit me up on PM as a lender.. total scammer of course..   I hope thats not what the bad people are going to start doing taking a real BP members name and then just put a letter after it.

     Jay, can you send me a link to their profiles.

    you will have to ask Mindy.. but I just got another PM from him  and it was from account closed.. so not sure how he / she managed that. still trying for that 800.00  which first was for PPI   private payment insurance then turned into application fee  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    on subject at hand.. what we used to do in the day.. was get preapproved with a ARV appraisal from lender sub too a 442.. but that was pre 08... so we knew the refi appraisal up front. @Chris Mason  do they still underwrite mortgages like that these days.

    but the BRRR can back fire in low value assets land.. Ie 150 and under.. because values are all over the joint.

    25k all in rehab for a duplex with all that work is a job well done.. in todays price points .

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Caleb Heimsoth:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Russell Brazil  this is off the topic..

    but some scammer hacked @Caleb Heimsoth  @Christopher Socha  Christophers name and created an account

    christopher Socha F   then hit me up on PM as a lender.. total scammer of course..   I hope thats not what the bad people are going to start doing taking a real BP members name and then just put a letter after it.

    Are you saying someone made a fake profile of me?

    sorry Caleb I accidently tagged you.. NO they made a fake one  of Christopher Socha    then just put the letter F after his last name.  

  • Hamburg, NY · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    7y
    @Jay Hinrichs why in the world would they copy me? Lol. In any case, thanks for noticing my 25k rehab budget. I’m probably closer to 23k but I rounded up for simplicity. I did a LOT of work myself because I knew I had a narrow margin to deal with, maybe even less than I thought. I also had no problem with my first investment property requiring some sweat equity. I’m exploring other fInancIng options at the moment. The good news is both sides are rented for $700 and $725.
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