How did you first start using your Self-directed IRA?

How did you first start using your Self-directed IRA?

Real Estate Broker · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2012 · 220 posts · 52 votes

I'm in the process of converting a 401k into a SDIRA and was wondering if any fellow BPer's would care to share what has worked or not worked for them using this investment approach. Is it best to purchase individual notes on a case-by-case basis, work with a group of private investors pooling money together or ????

Did your initial approach work or not? How did you tweak it to suit your business goals?

I've read the other posts on finding a good company to manage the SDIRA and have found some valuable information, but am more interested in individual opinions on the best places to start, with the intention of increasing the amount of cash available to put towards purchases and rehabs.

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Flipper/Rehabber · Anaheim, CA · Member since 2010 · 188 posts · 118 votes
13y
Originally posted by Page Huyette:
This might work for someone who is self-employed, but what about someone who isn't? It is my understanding they would not be able to open a Solo 401k.

Page, you are right, you have to be self-employed to partake in a SD 401K. But, you could also have a full time job and a part time self-employed business on the side. You may not be able to contribute much to the 401K, but if you have a large chuck of change from a previous employer, an SD 401K may be a better option than an SD IRA.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Not sure what others have done but I stated by buying existing notes that were performing and bought at a discount to increase yields from the face value.
    Soon I will move into using funds to generate notes with rehab flippers looking for funding.

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2010 · 390 posts · 599 votes
    13y

    Will Barnard How exactly do you source your notes? Local investor deals or do you have a preferred source?

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    13y

    Great info, thanks much, and the one thing I know that I do NOT want is a typical custodial SDIRA, due to slow execution and high ongoing fees. So that leaves solo K or checkbook LLC IRA.

    I think I have a handle on the checkbook LLC IRA, and the sizable but one-time up front fees to get it set up (perhaps $1,200 I've seen), with minimal ongoing custodial fees since the custodian only holds one asset, namely the LLC.

    As for the solo K, I understand that it requires a current active business (Sch C or corp) to create the plan (ie. being a full time investor holding Sch. E. rental property that generates investment income would not qualify me). So I need an active business, which could be fix-and-flip, wholesaling, or a non-RE business. As for the funds that I still have sitting in a previous employer's 401K plan, I can roll that over to the new 401K plan. Is all of that correct?

    Question: How active does the business need to be? Wholesaling a few deals a year work? The reason I ask is because I'm primarily interested in being able to move my legacy 401K from my prior employer over to this solo K. I'm not so much interested at this moment in contributing from my future business income.

    Also: Why would I want to create an LLC for the solo K? Isn't is much cheaper and more efficient to just open the checking account at my local bank in the name of "ABC Business 401K Plan"?

    Thanks.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Page Huyette,

    You already have "ABC Basket Weaving".

    If you want the choice to be able to invest personally with your 401k, roll it over and then invest it in your C-corp stock.

    You can open a solo 401k for that business; however, you might want to consider opening a new C-corporation titled "XYZ Investing"

    You can start a new corporation and then the 401k plan and then invest that 401k plan into it AS LONG AS IT IS A C-CORPORATION. That can then be an active business and even pay you a salary.

  • Note Investor · Black Forest, CO · Member since 2011 · 29 posts · 38 votes
    13y

    Hello Page,

    Of course, everything I write there is just my opinion and works best for my particular situation and comfort level.

    Therefore, I am not saying any other approach is right or wrong; it’s just one of the many techniques I use to buy notes with a pension fund for tax-free growth and with draw.

    My approach is always been work on a individual case-by-case basis.

    The reason is, I only do business with decision-makers. In other words, the Note Seller must be the person receiving the payments on the note for sale.

    Another reason I buy discounted notes on a case-by-case basis instead of "Pooling" my capitl is I like to remain in total control my money.

    I refuse to “pool” my pension fund capital with other investors, regardless of how well I know them, how smart they are or trust them.

    As I would then be giving up control of my pension fund capital to someone else and in my opinion, that is bad strategy.

    Although, I do by partial interest in notes, which has worked very well for me in the past.

    The following example is a “Tail End” partial note purchase.

    The way I’ve done this is; I find a note for sale, offer to buy 100% of the notes remaining payments.

    Then I broker a portion of the note to a sophisticated institutional investor and I place the "Tail End" of the remaining payments in my pension fund for tax-free growth.

    For example, and keep in mind I’m making up figures for example only.

    Let’s say I find a note for sale with 240 payments remaining and the note seller accepts my offer to buy all the remaining 240 payments at a discount.

    Giving me, the potential to earn $1700 as a note broker fee on the sale of that note to my institutional investor.

    Yet, instead of selling all 240 payments to my institutional note investor for my $1700 note broker fee, I sell 200 payments to my institutional investor and give up $700 of my broker fee in exchange for, the right to receive the remaining 40 payments.

    At closing, my pension fund takes assignment of the remaining 40 payments (tail end) via Partial Purchase Agreement with the institutional note investor.

    The assignment and partial purchase agreement are recorded at the county seat where the property is located and protects my remaining interest in the note in the event of default or early payoff.

    Yes, there are risks, you need to be sure your investor will work with you in the event the note goes in default and you have enough the capital in your IRA to fund the foreclose subject to your investors remaining interest.

    I found this note brokering technique to be an excellent way to direct profits to a tax-deferred or better yet, tax-free account (Roth) with minimal investment of cash from my pension fund.

    The last tail End note transaction I gave up approximately $700 in broker fee, forgot all about it and then…

    About seven years later when the payor refinanced the loan, I received a call from my institutional investor asking me where to mail my large (large to me anyhow) pay off check.

    My only regret is I did not do this on every transaction when I brokered notes to my institutional investor these past 20 some years of buying notes and mortgages.

    Yet in this example I embarrassingly need to admit that I directed the profits from my partial note purchase to a NON-tax-free account. Yes, shame on me… Now if only I could practice what I preach! ha ha

    Then again, there’s nothing like keeping out from under the thumb of Uncle Sam and the IRS out of your transactions, legally, ethically and creatively.

    Page, work the numbers on an example like this and you'll find that the yield is phenomenal as well as your cash-on-cash return. And that’s not even including compounding your profits tax free.

    Let me know if any questions,
    Kent

    PS. I'll post a real estate idea tomorrow and, if you like this post click the VOTE button

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    David, you do not need to have a corporation to have a solo 401k plan, it can be a simple sole proprietor business.

    Steven, I would love to talk with you further regarding the solok plan and investing in the c corp shares. Contact info in my signature - when u have time.

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 22 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    I know this thread is older, and forgive me if this question was already explained. If I have a business setup (LLC) that is already involved with REI, can I take an existing 401k from an old job to roll into a Solo 401k and use it to invest in some flip projects that are completely separate from my existing business? Could I operate these as individual businesses that never share funds?

    I only ask because the way I was reading some of these posts make it seem like you can't do this if you have an existing business, but maybe I read them wrong.

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Yes, yes, and yes, Brian Smith. The business must exist before the SD401k because that's what sponsors the plan. You can certainly roll your existing old plan(s) over as well as any traditional IRA's.

    Be careful not to commingle (i.e. share) funds between your before tax and after tax investments. That is, they must be treated as completely separate entities.

    Jeff

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Brian Smith,

    You cannot invest your funds into your company's stock unless it is a C-corp.

    -Steven

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 22 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    To be sure I'm understanding this thread correctly. With a Solo-K, I have 2 options.

    1: Start an LLC to 'sponsor' the plan, and then use ONLY the 401k funds to make investments and all profits must stay in the 401k.

    2: Have an existing C-corp, that may already be making 'after tax' investments, and use the 401k to invest in said C-corp's stock.

    Correct so far?

    Ideally I want to have an LLC that makes 'after tax' investments as my primary business. I want to also be able to use the 401k to make side investments separately. If this is the case, do I need to setup a separate LLC for the 401k, or do I attach it to my existing LLC and just make sure all of the money stays separate?

    This is all in the planning stages still, but in this scenario I think I want to avoid a C-corp because I know next to nothing about them at this time and what I do know makes them seem more complex than what I want to deal with.

    I really appreciate the responses by the way. Thank you!

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Brian Smith,

    If your 401k invests into the LLC(C-corp), you use the funds create income for that LLC. Dividends from the LLC go to the 401k. The 401k can still invest in other things separately.

    -Steven

  • Clarksville, MD · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    Brian Smith
    I am not an ERISA attorney, so I am talking as a newbie to Solo-401k: I do not believe you can invest your 401k money into any business (like a C-Corp) where you are currently benefiting (for e.x. getting a salary from the C-Corp).

    For example, this is probably a violation: "Allowing a disqualified person to currently benefit from the IRA's investments conflicts with the idea that tax-deffered funds are not truly 'owned' by the IRA account holder until they are withdrawn during "retirement years" and taxes are paid." (from http://amicuslawgroup.com/could-mitt-romneys-ira-be-disqualified-an-adventure-into-the-muddy-waters-of-the-prohibited-transaction-rules/ )

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    13y

    Ravi Veer - read up on Rollover as Business Startup (ROBS). The IRS does permit 401K funds to be invested in a C-Corporation of the owner. In recent years, as many as 25% of all franchise startups have been at least partially financed with ROBS contributions from 401K funds. There is a fairly aggressive network of promoters that work with the franchise industry to encourage prospective franchisees to tap their 401K funds for this purpose, and with the huge dislocation of corporate employees, it's a huge business.

    I have been meaning to research whether 401k funds could be used in a ROBS structure to fund various types of real estate businesses that do things like: fix and flip, manage property for others, make rehab loans, etc.

    The 401k holder would take this route to enable them to "make a living" from their incorporated RE business, versus having all profits flow back into the tax-sheltered account (which would be necessary if your 401k was directly engaging in the activity.)

    Steven Hamilton II or @bill walston - can you shed some light?

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y

    Bill Walston - your name was mentioned, but the mention didn't work as expected ...

  • Clarksville, MD · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 0 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by David Beard:
    The IRS does permit 401K funds to be invested in a C-Corporation of the owner.

    David Beard, IRS is one hurdle. I was thinking of the other hurdle: Dept of Labor. Is it possible that DoL would construe this as "furnishing of goods, services, or facilities between a plan and a disqualified person" - a prohibited transaction under 4975(c)(1)(c)?

  • Investor · Saint Peters, MO · Member since 2013 · 106 posts · 12 votes
    13y

    Great topic you guys have going here. The question I have, and I think I know the answer but want to make sure.

    If I want to roll over my current 401K to a new Solo 401K sponsored by my LLC. I would have to leave my current employer to do so. I can't roll it over while still an employee can I? I could withdraw the money but the penalties would be steep.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    13y

    Matt Inman - you almost certainly cannot transfer any of your 401K funds out to a solo-K (without it being considered a distribution) unless you leave your current employment. It's always good to verify the rules with your company's plan administrator, as they can vary.

    If you have quite a bit in the 401K, as you become aware of the broader investment universe outside of mutual funds, kind of makes you want to change jobs just to get your hands on the money!

  • Investor · Saint Peters, MO · Member since 2013 · 106 posts · 12 votes
    13y

    David Beard

    David that is exactly what I've been thinking. After 20years both my wife and I have quite a bit in them that we'd like to get at. There's my incentive to get my REI strategy off the ground and working of me so I can quit and get at that money. :)

  • Real Estate Broker · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2012 · 220 posts · 52 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Matt Inman:
    I could withdraw the money but the penalties would be steep.

    I have retirement funds with Tiaa-cref and met with their advisor recently. I was told that I couldn't even remove the funds and take the penalty hit if I wanted to. Reason being, since the employer has contributed funds they are obligated to protect those funds.

    My spouse has a 401k with no employer contributions and he is also not allowed to take the penalty and rollover or withdrawal.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    13y

    Page Huyette You're right that most plans operate that way, though I don't think they have a legal or IRS requirement to do so. You could each borrow $50K from your plans and "default" on the loans, effectively creating a distribution. Note that it takes awhile for a non-paying loan to be declared defaulted (up to 6 months) and trigger reporting to the IRS. Of course, once you do this, you are not eligible to borrow again from the plan unless you pay up on the original note.

    For a person departing a position with pretty good tenure, another potential source of investable funds is a company pension plan (if your employer offers one). At departure, you may be offered the opportunity to take a lump sum distribution in lieu of a future payment stream (typically starting in retirement). The value of the lump-sum distribution is an actuarial computation that is partially based on current interest rates. With rates low, the present value of the pension payments is very high, due to the way the discounting of future cash flows works. In my case, I called and got the amount of the lump-sum distribution amount from my company, and computed that my pension plan benefits were being calculated at a rate of less than 5% (i.e. I would earn only 5% on the funds if I left them inside the pension plan).

    Thus in my case I elected to roll the lump sum out of the plan into a solo K, where I'm earning 15-20% returns in private lending. Based on that return, when I start taking income in retirement, instead of $x that I would have had from the pension (at the 5% implied investment rate), I will now be able to receive something like $3x to $4x in distributions from my solo K at retirement.

    Additionally, the typical pension benefit in retirement is based on your life expectancy. Should you check out earlier (we'll hope not), then you will lose alot of money (I understand that there are spousal benefit and period-certain options, but electing those options cuts your mthly payment, so the point is valid). By monetizing the pension, you don't have the die-early risk.

    And the pension plan is at least somewhat tied to the future viability of your company. Though there are of course actual assets in the plan (unlike social security), most plans are underfunded based on realistic assumptions about their future investment returns (they tend to overstate their investment return assumptions to minimize the contributions that the company needs to make to the plan, which is a hit to their earnings).

    However, this is not to be done lightly. Spouses have to sign waivers, etc. But the economics are fantastic.

  • Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2013 · 198 posts · 25 votes
    13y

    Mark, for later reading.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    David Beard,

    Yes, you definitely can use it for real estate investments. I recommend that you consider using the ROBS to flip or in other types of investments.

    The Corp pays tax at it's own rate and then can issue dividends which can then be reinvested. You can also pay any employees.

    -Steven

  • Douglas LarsonPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2008 · 410 posts · 337 votes
    13y

    @Page Huyette

    I enjoyed this conversation thread. I'm wondering what decision you made between the IRA or 401K? This thread has me determined to discover more about the 401K option and note investing as described in a few of the posts like (@Will Barnard).

    My Wife has an IRA we converted to a ROTH and then to an SDIRA ROTH account with Equity Trust. We have been a little frustrated with their "First Class Service" and if we want anything done in less than a week we have had to opt for the $50 expedited service fee. Other than that, their fees are reasonable (about $400 per year) for parking our cash and assets with them. We have purchased 2 lots and sold one. The other is under contract. This seems like a fantastic way to grow wealth tax free. I think the SDIRA route could be tough to use as a way to rehab homes, collect rents and pay a lot of property maintenance bills but there are plenty of people who do it. If you have true checkbook control of the account it would be more feasible.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    If you qualify, the solo 401k is by far the better choice over the SDIRA, hands down. Checkbook control is only needed if you are investing in very time sensitive investments, however, the ease and quick access is my preferred route.

    Keep in mind that flipping properties is an active biz and subject to UBIT, just as buy and hold using leverage will also trigger UBIT. My opinion is that other investment options such as notes, trust deeds, etc. are better choices than buy and hold.

  • Real Estate Broker · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2012 · 220 posts · 52 votes
    13y

    @Douglas Larson thanks for asking. I've not moved any money to date, having discovered that both my retirement money with TIAA-Cref and my spouse's with Mass Mutual can't be rolled or touched until our employment is terminated. I moved some of the allocatations into real estate funds as a (poor) consolation but eventually switched that money back out due to lower performances than other options.

    I will say that I've done quite a bit of research on the SDIRA option and have attended several webinars, and have found Kaaren Hall with uDirect IRA Services to be a great option. If we move our money into a SDIRA it will be with them.

    I am both self-employed and work for an employer, so am also eligible for a solo 401k but am holding off on that route for now.

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