Tell me why I’m wrong! Classic SF vs MF debate

Tell me why I’m wrong! Classic SF vs MF debate

Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes

As we all know it’s possible to obtain the 10 30yr fixed rate mortgages, which in my personal opinion is almost non negotiable and is my main focus.

So with that said, my plan is to get 10 quality B+ SFR properties in generally low cost of living areas. Recently I've been digging into the idea of potentially doing 10 small Multifamily (2-4) in order to maximize the number of doors after I reach 10 properties. Owning rentals seems to be an economy of scale and more doors means more tenants which means higher probability of stability in my overall portfolio (that's my though process anyway)

However, tenant quality and turnovers can be a cash flow killer and that’s where I’m stuck. This is more of a quality over quantity debate, 10 families in a nice area will most likely  treat the property better and have a tendency of staying longer.

To put everything into context I’m doing the out of state turnkey thing. I am a median wage earner in Seattle and my main goal is cash flow and I can’t complain about tax benefits either. Currently own 1 OOS single family looking at my 2nd

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Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
6y

I would be super careful with out-of-state properties with the exception of when you can get them for a steal and when you are fairly positive they will appreciate.

Otherwise, while some out-of-state properties look like they are cash-flowing well when all the counting is done after a few years the inefficient things will bury you e.g. the additional cost for property management, the inefficient management by management companies, the fact that management companies don't visit your property enough to know the tenant turned your property into an animal rescue center, etc.

As for whether SFR or multi-units are better, I find that multi-unit properties always have the best ROI. I live in Los Angeles and own several SFR properties in Las Vegas. When a tenant moves and this is myself doing the work with one or two workers, my cost to paint a SFR, replace carpets, repair plumbing, clean the yard, trim trees, haul trash to the dump, etc. is $6,000 to $8,000. I had to clean and get a property ready to sell in Idaho and my cost was $18,000. I had to paint the entire inside, outside, replace 3 broken bathroom sinks, reface the kitchen cabinets, trim trees, install a new stove and dishwasher and it took myself and one employee 13 day and we worked 12 hours every day.

As for multi-unit properties, they cost less per unit, often get the same or more for rent than SFR's, we don't have to trim trees and clean yards every time a tenant moves, we always have tile floors and never replace carpets, we are always finished withing 3 days and our average cost to make an apartment look like it was just built is less than $3,000 and usually no more than $2,000.

Believe me when I say it is like walking into a nightmare when we first walk into a 3 to 5 bedroom SFR just after a tenant moves out. Some of the properties we own have 20-ft high ceilings. The cost to replace the carpets in one SFR we did a few weeks ago was $4800 and I buy medium grade carpets.

One more thing I don't like about SFR is it takes a serious amount of time to visit every property scattered all over the place and you can visit more units at the same time with multi-unit properties. This time-saving is serious to know which tenants just moved in two large dobermans, or which tenants moved in 5 friends with vehicles pouring gallons of motor oil in your driveway.

I spend most of my life crunching numbers to get the highest ROI. Generally (not always), the only time a SFR will beat a multi-unit is if the SFR appreciates, significantly, or if you purchased the property for a low price and the rent is high.

We have a lot of SFR properties because we purchase them for 30 cents on the dollar at auctions in 2008. They more than doubled in price in the past 12 years. Starting a few months ago, I crunched the numbers and the cost to clean them has been so high I sent every tenant a notice telling them that I am selling the properties. So far, 5 tenants moved out and I cleaned the houses and sold all 5 of them. I am waiting for the rest of the tenants to move and I am selling every out-of-state SFR.

The prices for SFR and multi-unit properties in California are super high, but for the money I get from every property I sell in Las Vegas I can purchase a single unit in a multi-unit property for about $250k to $300k and I can actually get more rent for a 2-bedroom apartment than I was getting for a 5-bedroom house in Las Vegas. Believe-it-or-not, my beautiful 5-bedroom house in Las Vegas has a maximum rent of $1,350 and sale price of the house was $280k. A 2-bedroom apartment in Los Angeles costs about $250k to $300k and rents for $1,900 to $2,100. So, even though California has some of the highest prices in the country, California still has the most-profitable investments.

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  • Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 420 posts · 388 votes
    6y

    @Tyler Smith my personal feeling on the topic is that it is better to start with 10 SF properties in B+ or A- areas where you don’t have as many issues with tenants. Once your portfolio has grown and you’ve been able to increase your spread on rents vs fixed costs it may make sense to 1031 in the MF space and hire a property manager. Ideally this would allow you to use leverage and buy better cash flowing assets and at the same time make it so that one tenant missing a rent payment doesn’t affect 10% of your revenue. As usual, it’s a question of risk vs. reward.

    This business is ALL ABOUT finding the right tenants. Don’t let anyone tell you differently. My recommendation is 80% based on quality of tenant.

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    @Account Closed, I appreciate your taking the time to respond and especially for the chart, but of course I have to strongly disagree with your statement of "anyone recommending SFR's over multi-unit properties doesn't have a clue and most-likely never owned multi-unit properties" is patently untrue, and well as conceited beyond what you have a right to be. You sound like you have a lot of experience, so perhaps you can listen to a different opinion. First the question was singles vs 4 plexes. I like MF, but to be honest the poster has no more chance of buying a 100 unit in the next 5 years then of becoming president. You have to go with what opportunity brings you until your resources allow you to grow. Next I currently have a 12 unit apartment that of course does not have the economy of scale a 100 unit has. It makes money, but not nearly as much money as 12 SFRs do. I have a paid property manager there because the turnover is much higher. I have had many multi year SFR renters several for over 10 years. Most turnovers in SFrs are less than $500 and my apartments maybe $200 or less. I also have a pretty nice B+ 4 plex. Of all of them the 4 plex struggles the most in ROI. The added cost of lawn maintenance and snow removal as well as added costs for utilities is painful. If I compare the income from 12 SFRs to 12 of my multi units the 12 unit loses. The 12 unit has the most turnovers, the most police visits, the most headaches to deal with, (fighting tenants). However if I wanted to seriously grow and had the money it would of course be a Multi for the reasons that you state. For now, the cost of entry prohibits my buying the 40 unit and up Multis. Of course there are no 40s in my town, I am looking out of town. The amount of due diligence, reserves, resources etc. are just on a different scale few can do without some serious money. I have been able to scale up with very little cash lately by finding great deals and paying cash. I can then refi most or all of my money back out. I doubt that will ever happen with multis for me.(I know it does happen in multis) Lets hope I can someday. I agree that maintenance is more expensive for SFRs than my multi, but my utility costs are down. In my area SFRs are in a much higher demand than apartments, even 3 bedroom multis. That may be cultural to my area. Oddly enough SFRs require much less time for me to manage. I know that sounds odd, but that is important to me. I may get 2 or 3 calls for maintenance issues per year on a SFR, and they stay rented for 2 to 10 years. My SFRs get at least 4 or 5 calls per month, and turn over at least twice per year. Now I am getting close to my maximum units that I can self manage and maintain a full time job. The most time consuming property is a duplex that I use as a vacation rental. It has the best cash flow of them all hands down. I like the idea of scaling into at least a 40 unit and have looked at some, that may justify hiring in house management. Due to the initial costs and the huge reserves the bankers want, especially for larger units it has been hard to get a deal going.

    Multis are nice, but are hard to get into and you rarely have the money to buy distressed units and fix them up like you can houses.  Of course if you can the profits are huge.  Each method of investing has rewards, the exit for SFRs has a lot more flexibility in a bad market as you can sell to homeowners, not just other investors.

  • Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    If you have 12 SFR properties then you had (or still have) enough equity when considering even only the downpayment you put on the houses to get into a fairly large multi-unit building.

    As for turnover whether SFR's or multi-units are better, we own several large apartment buildings, several SFR's and find absolutely no evidence that SFR's stay longer. We have tenants who have been in some of our apartment buildings who have been in the same units for more than 40 years and the average tenant stays no less than 2 years. Even if SFR tenants remained longer the cost to clean, paint and replace carpets or repair wood and linoleum floors is about 5 times more expensive than a 850 to 950 sw ft apartment that we clean, paint and rent only 3 days after a tenant moves.

    As for my calculations for a 100-unit building that even I cannot afford to purchase in California, I don't know why I did the numbers for such a large building, but even a duplex will always outperform a SFR and I am always willing to work with anyone to help them crunch their numbers to help them decide what to do with their money. The reason a duplex will always beat a SFR is because the value of a duplex increases immensely just by raising the rent $25. Lets say the Gross Multiplier is 13 and you raise the rent only $25. Then the value of your duplex just increased by 2 x $25 = $50 x 12 - $600 x 13 = $7,800 + the $600 / year rent increase = $7,400.

    I don't know anyone who does a tiny rent increase of $25. So, lets go with an average rent increase of $50

    2 x $50 = $100 x 12 months = $1200 x 13 GRM = $15,600 + your annual rent increase = $16,800

    And...that is only your first year for a duplex. Suppose, you raise the rent $35 every year after the first year, or you raise the rent in each unit $100 the first year. Then your profit the first year is

    2 x $100 = $200 x 12 months = $2400 x 13 = $31,200 + annual rent increase = $33,600

    And...the numbers I stated are only for appreciated value and increased rent. These numbers do not include the $100 to $300 per month cash flow you inherited when you purchased the property. 

    Supposing you have a $150 per month cash flow when you purchase the property, raise the rent $100 the first month and increase the rent by $30 per month for 9 years after the first year being a total of 10 years from when you purchase the property your appreciation and cash flow will be $181,920. You cannot get this type of a guarantee (not that anything is guaranteed) with a SFR.

    Anyone can send me their numbers and I will put them in my number crunching machine to see how they work.

  • Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Aside from crossing fingers for luck, it is very difficult to be successful if you don't have a business model and philosophy where you can see your business model and philosophy will give you the end results you want.

    My point for saying that is; you can argue with me and tell me I am giving you crazy numbers, or my business model won't work in your area, but you cannot be successful with my business model if you cannot; 1st) see that it does work and 2nd) see how you can make it work for you in your area.

    There may be a need to change the type of properties so that you have better tenants, or maybe you ill make only 20% of what my numbers portray, but even a 5% increase is something that should not be ignored.

  • Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed thank you for your insight on this whole thread, it has really changed my thinking. I have 1 question though, would you agree that somebody who believes single family homes may be a better option might have different goals? If the goal is to have steady income without necessarily scaling to 100+ units (maybe 15-20) could you make the argument that SFR might be a good strategy?

  • Eric FernwoodBusiness Member
    Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 992 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Hello @Account Closed,

    Interesting comments. A few considerations:

    • If you have a good investment team, you can live where you want and invest where you can make money. Of the large number of clients we deal with, only 3 or 4 live in Las Vegas. The rest live in other states (California mostly) and other countries (mostly Hong Kong or Singapore). We have never met half of our clients and many have never been to Las Vegas.
    • Our clients experience:
      • Typical tenant stay, approximately 5 years.
      • Average turn cost: $500 to ​$700. We have had one or two occurrences of the type you describe in the last 10+ years. The property manager filed collections on the tenants and sooner or later they paid the monies owed. They have to because until they clear the lien, they cannot buy a car, rent another place, etc. This is another advantage of credit dependent tenants.
      • Average annual maintenance + vacancy cost: <3%
      • Except for 3 properties, all are professionally managed. I am a realtor, have extensive experience with investment real estate and I own properties in town. I would NEVER consider self management, I can't afford the lower ROI. Without a skilled property manager, the odds of getting bad or marginal tenants are high. There are people who watch Craigs list and similar sites looking for self managed properties. They do this because they have a bad track record and know that a property manager would not approve them. Also, people who do not have a depth of experience managing tenants are gullible and are easy to take advantage of.
      • Number of evictions in +10 years, 4. Maybe more by the time COVID-19 is over. At this time, we have 5 tenants having problems or motivations paying rent out of the +160 properties.

    Thoughts:

    • I believe the difference between your experience and our clients experience is the tenant pool. If you target the right tenant pool, your result will be similar to ours.
    • If you are not getting what you need from the property manager, you need a different property manager. The ones we work with provide a range of services including: for each property under consideration, they review and provide an opinion on: rent, time to rent, rehab items; they screen and select good tenants (we have an actual definition of a “good” tenant); they make sure repairs are done timely, etc.
    • On selling the 5 bedroom house for $280,000. It depends on when you sold it and where the property was located. $280,000 could have been an outstanding price or a terrible price. It all depends.
    • On multi-family always have better ROI, not in our experience or the people we know who own such properties. On paper, they do exceedingly well. However, once you take into account issues like:
      • Maintenance cost - The average age of a Las Vegas 4-plex is about 40 years and the low income tenant pool is very hard on these properties. Plus, you have 4x the systems to maintain: 4 HVACs, 4 water heaters, 4 refrigerators, etc.
      • Skips and evictions. The average tenant stay with such C class properties is under 1 year.
      • Turn cost for a 4-plex unit is between $1,000 and $2,000.
      • The Las Vegas multi-family properties are at best C class and in high crime areas so the tenant pool is limited to low income cash based tenants. There is very little ability to raise rents.

    Your actual return (including all expenses) is no better and probably lower than a single family home that targets a good tenant pool. Another factor to consider with multi-family is that investors do not sell performing assets. So far, every 4-plex I’ve investigated in the last +14 years was losing money. The only question was why and whether we could turn the situation around.

    In fairness, when I owned 4-plexes in Atlanta, they were -A or +B properties and they were profitable properties with little hassle due to the tenant pool. The ones I owned in Houston were C class and I had to do my own maintenance and only broke even after tax advantages.

    In summary:

    • With a good investment team in place, your involvement is minimal so you can invest where you can make the most money.
    • If you target the right tenant pool, your tenants stay a long time, pay the rent on schedule and take care of the properties and you will get a higher return.
    • If you are not getting a lot of services from your property manager, you need a new property manager.

    Anyway, this is my $0.02.

    @Tyler Smith

    Whether to buy single family or multi family is a spreadsheet decision. Run the numbers taking into consideration of all costs and see which one better supports your goal. There is no “better” property type. Also, today the best deal might be a condo. Next time a multi-family and time after that a single family. Do not limit your profit based on popular dogma.

    @Account Closed

    I read your last comment and I see you are basing your comments on GRM. GRM does not include expenses such as debt service, state income tax, property taxes, management, insurance, and utilities, etc. It is simply Property Price / Gross Annual Rental Income. This tells you little or nothing about a property's actual financial performance. You must include all costs in your calculations including debt services, taxes, turn costs, skips, evictions, property damage, management, rehab cost, everything, in order to know how the property actually performs.

    FERNWOOD Team, KW VIP Realty520 Reviews
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    @Account Closed, I am curious how you get the value of a duplex increasing. Could you elaborate? In my area the rent a property brings in does not count in valuation unless you have 5 units or more in the building. I only wish I could raise rents by $50 per year. I bought out my last partner at the end of 2013. Since 2014 I have averaged about a $50 rent increase per door for the entire 6 years. My houses have not gone up 10% in the last 5 years. My rents are just a little under market, but not much. I do that intentionally so I get a larger pool to choose from, I prefer to get the best tenants even if I sacrifice a little rent. As I said earlier time is the item I lack most. As to the amount of down payment getting me into a large multi, keep in mind that the average value of my units is between $60K and $70k and that is after I fix them up. The price to rent ratios are pretty bad in my area. The largest multi in my town is 6 fourplexes in a group, then after that is 2 9 unit buildings sold together for a total of 18 units. Turnover on those units are the highest of anywhere in town. The rents in the 6 fourplex units have not gone up $100 per month in the last 6 years. I follow all the advertised rental units in town to keep up on trends. So far my biggest drawback to SFRs was a bad hailstorm last year that took out over 20 roofs, multi and SFR alike, and large deductibles on each. The town I have been looking at multis in is 130 miles away. You can only force so much appreciation. I have maybe $60K in my own money in all of my residential rental units. Most of my investment has been time fixing things up in order to be able to buy a unit that will cash flow. Virtually everyone of my units but the 4 plex was a distressed property. That is why my 4 plex does so poorly. I did not buy it at half price and fix it up. However it was a no cash purchase done with the owner's financing the down payment at 4% and interest only payments for 5 years with a balloon. Try doing that with no reserves on a 100 unit. Anyway I would appreciate your input on my scenario. I did know that in 2014 we were going into a small depression, and I intended to be in good shape to weather it, so I stayed cautious. A very off thing is the Covid19 pandemic. For the first time in 7 years my rentals are going into a fairly high demand. Housing sales should be virtually nothing as oil tanked, and we rely on oil income to generate jobs and taxes. Yet here we are in the best housing market in nearly 20 years. I hope to increase the rent in several properties from folks moving to the hicks from big cities.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    I think it really depends on the market. For example here in Denver it's hard to find cash flowing  singles. For the most part, single family homes have so much competition and are so expensive compared to net rental income, that it's hard to achieve any positive cash flow whatsoever. One has to employ a strategy such as value add, renting by the room, or house hacking in order to produce a cash flowing single. However if you have $1M minimum and can jump straight into multifamily, you can get cashflow day one even paying retail off the shelf. So I'd say based on my experience, whether singles or MF is better for an individual investor depends on their buying power and what's available in the market. 

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