Tell me why I’m wrong! Classic SF vs MF debate

Tell me why I’m wrong! Classic SF vs MF debate

Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes

As we all know it’s possible to obtain the 10 30yr fixed rate mortgages, which in my personal opinion is almost non negotiable and is my main focus.

So with that said, my plan is to get 10 quality B+ SFR properties in generally low cost of living areas. Recently I've been digging into the idea of potentially doing 10 small Multifamily (2-4) in order to maximize the number of doors after I reach 10 properties. Owning rentals seems to be an economy of scale and more doors means more tenants which means higher probability of stability in my overall portfolio (that's my though process anyway)

However, tenant quality and turnovers can be a cash flow killer and that’s where I’m stuck. This is more of a quality over quantity debate, 10 families in a nice area will most likely  treat the property better and have a tendency of staying longer.

To put everything into context I’m doing the out of state turnkey thing. I am a median wage earner in Seattle and my main goal is cash flow and I can’t complain about tax benefits either. Currently own 1 OOS single family looking at my 2nd

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Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
6y

I would be super careful with out-of-state properties with the exception of when you can get them for a steal and when you are fairly positive they will appreciate.

Otherwise, while some out-of-state properties look like they are cash-flowing well when all the counting is done after a few years the inefficient things will bury you e.g. the additional cost for property management, the inefficient management by management companies, the fact that management companies don't visit your property enough to know the tenant turned your property into an animal rescue center, etc.

As for whether SFR or multi-units are better, I find that multi-unit properties always have the best ROI. I live in Los Angeles and own several SFR properties in Las Vegas. When a tenant moves and this is myself doing the work with one or two workers, my cost to paint a SFR, replace carpets, repair plumbing, clean the yard, trim trees, haul trash to the dump, etc. is $6,000 to $8,000. I had to clean and get a property ready to sell in Idaho and my cost was $18,000. I had to paint the entire inside, outside, replace 3 broken bathroom sinks, reface the kitchen cabinets, trim trees, install a new stove and dishwasher and it took myself and one employee 13 day and we worked 12 hours every day.

As for multi-unit properties, they cost less per unit, often get the same or more for rent than SFR's, we don't have to trim trees and clean yards every time a tenant moves, we always have tile floors and never replace carpets, we are always finished withing 3 days and our average cost to make an apartment look like it was just built is less than $3,000 and usually no more than $2,000.

Believe me when I say it is like walking into a nightmare when we first walk into a 3 to 5 bedroom SFR just after a tenant moves out. Some of the properties we own have 20-ft high ceilings. The cost to replace the carpets in one SFR we did a few weeks ago was $4800 and I buy medium grade carpets.

One more thing I don't like about SFR is it takes a serious amount of time to visit every property scattered all over the place and you can visit more units at the same time with multi-unit properties. This time-saving is serious to know which tenants just moved in two large dobermans, or which tenants moved in 5 friends with vehicles pouring gallons of motor oil in your driveway.

I spend most of my life crunching numbers to get the highest ROI. Generally (not always), the only time a SFR will beat a multi-unit is if the SFR appreciates, significantly, or if you purchased the property for a low price and the rent is high.

We have a lot of SFR properties because we purchase them for 30 cents on the dollar at auctions in 2008. They more than doubled in price in the past 12 years. Starting a few months ago, I crunched the numbers and the cost to clean them has been so high I sent every tenant a notice telling them that I am selling the properties. So far, 5 tenants moved out and I cleaned the houses and sold all 5 of them. I am waiting for the rest of the tenants to move and I am selling every out-of-state SFR.

The prices for SFR and multi-unit properties in California are super high, but for the money I get from every property I sell in Las Vegas I can purchase a single unit in a multi-unit property for about $250k to $300k and I can actually get more rent for a 2-bedroom apartment than I was getting for a 5-bedroom house in Las Vegas. Believe-it-or-not, my beautiful 5-bedroom house in Las Vegas has a maximum rent of $1,350 and sale price of the house was $280k. A 2-bedroom apartment in Los Angeles costs about $250k to $300k and rents for $1,900 to $2,100. So, even though California has some of the highest prices in the country, California still has the most-profitable investments.

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  • Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Please clarify your reasoning!

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Johnny Wolff:

    Your premise of "more doors means more stability" is wrong my friend.  10  nice SFRs will be waaaayyyy more stable/less risky than 10 4-plexes/triplexes.  As you get to these mini multi-families the tenant churn ramps up significantly.  I've had some luck with long terms tenants at a duplex I own, but eventually my long term tenants fought with the other side of the duplex over their cats and then left.

    Anyways - SFR all the way. Honestly not sure why this remains a debate tbh. It's easier, more stable, fewer headaches, and more liquid. I've owned/own both.

     No offense, but it could be just your management. I own both as well. Both have their pros/cons. 
    My multis don’t have insane churn and they make a lot more money than my singles. 
    & churn in a single costs you way more than than churn for 1 apartment.
    At the end of the day, SFH have way more sf and that sf costs you a pretty penny.

    You rarely see people reach scale with just singles. Now if your someone who is doing this as a side gig and is happy with 5-10 units and some extra retirement money that’s great. But plenty of people do this as their career and need more. 

    & 10 units vs 40 units isn’t really a great comparison. 40>10. Incremental added work for substantially more money. 40 units of Small multi vs 40 sfhs is a better comparison. 

  • Member since 2020 · 671 posts · 937 votes
    6y

    "Quantity has a quality all its own". 

    I'm not sure I even agree with it in this context, but it is one of my favorite quotes.  haha.

    Seriously, this is exactly the same internal conversation I'm having with myself right now.  I need clarity...

  • Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed what you’re saying makes sense to me. I personally don’t want to start raising money for units when I’m still figuring out the real estate game. In your opinion do you think it would be a better idea to focus on small multi family vs SF while I’m getting started?

  • Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Syed H. That is exactly the question I'm trying to figure out. So in your opinion 25-40 doors divided up between 2-4 unit properties should outperform 10 SFR

  • Rental Property Investor · South shore, MA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    It really depends on the given market. @Jay Hinrichs said it best, massive wealth comes from appreciation.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    The turnover on a single family is even higher. Re-painting the place a lot more costly. Each cap/ex item like a roof, plumbing repair, etc. takes up a much larger percent of rents. 

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Tyler Smith:

    @Syed H. That is exactly the question I'm trying to figure out. So in your opinion 25-40 doors divided up between 2-4 unit properties should outperform 10 SFR

    Of course they would, but like I said, 25-40 small multi unit isn't equivalent to 10 SFH's. Those aren't fair comparisons.

    You should compare 10 quadplexes to 40 SFHs.

    They both have their pros and cons.

    10 quads will usually be less square footage than 40 SFH's. You also have 40 roofs vs 10. If you calculate your capex/maintenance/turnover the same as you do for a quad vs sfh, you are in for a rude awakening. The SFHs will always equal more in capex/maintenance.

    The good thing of sfh’s is the abundance of supply, usually longer term tenants, and easier comps to pull if the market goes up. With small MF, you have less square footage, less roofs, you can aggregate them, and sell/refi them as a portfolio with a closer to true MF cap rate. 

    MFH is how people reach scale. Besides PE giants, no one owns 100s or thousands of SFHs. I know plenty of people who own a 100+ units of MFH. I know maybe 2 people who own more than 100 SFHs. 

    IMO, scale should be the goal for almost all REI's. Owning a few units sucks. There's better returns with less stress/time than a couple of houses. Owning a nice sized portfolio of MF units, is easier than a few SFHs (to a certain point of course).

  • Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Syed H. That makes a lot of sense. So just to summarize what you're saying. As you scale, CapEx/maintenance will be less which decreases costs which essentially raises the return naturally. Secondly a nice SFR might cost me $30k out of pocket to purchase while a 3-4 plex might cost $60-70k

  • Rental Property Investor · Woodstock, GA · Member since 2017 · 517 posts · 772 votes
    6y

    I'm still in the SFR space...but goal is to get to MF as fast as possible.

    Reason? 

    It comes down to what kind of investor are you. 

    For me, I'm all about cash flow and managing my time...i.e. spend as little as possible driving around to different places. I'd rather just drive to 1-2. 

    Second, your cashflow is more stable with MF. When one of my houses vacant, I'm eating holding costs...(yes, they're in reserves) but income is gone. 

    So many people love reading RDPD...but don't listen to the premise. 

    Cashflow is KING. Not appreciation. 

    If you have a stable cashflow with MF, why do you need the asset to be 'more liquid,' Yeah, you could sell a house faster...but who cares. You can refi/LOC a MF and get cash if you need it.

    ------------

    Like someone else mentioned...if you can raise rents $50-$100 per unit, the value of the asset skyrockets overnight. 

    On top of that...I hate maintenance. 

    I'd rather replace a couple roofs over 100 doors...then 100 roofs. 100 HVACs. Deal with 100 different neighborhoods.

    You also have more control over the 'environment' of the multifamily (I"m talking bigger apartments here) where you have events for tenants, amenities, and such that make tenants want to stay to lower churn.

    ----

    This is just an opinion...but I'm betting you build more credibility around town (and with lenders) owning apartments over houses.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y

    It's almost like the RE vs stocks debate.  They both have pros and cons,  so have both.

    Own what your market and lead funnel provide.  I wasn't looking for a 10 unit mixed-use for my 2nd deal, but that's what was produced.  I was happily searching for another 5 bedroom single. Singles for appreciation and ease of exit, multis for cf is what I've experienced. 

    The sweet spot may be plexes on adjacent parcels.  Economies of scale, can finance individually for 30 yrs, sell one, occupy one, etc.  I wasn't looking for that, but it's what came up. 

    SF vs MF? It's all good👍

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Leominster, MA · Member since 2020 · 667 posts · 384 votes
    6y

    Tyler, 

    For us:  cash flow is the wrong way to evaluate an investment.  The equity position is the most critical component.  There is no right or wrong answer to the question of 'single family versus multi family', and your results with regards to vacancy rates and other factors will vary market to market.

    Here are some examples:

    Cambridge, MA:  

    Median SF sale price per square foot:  $873  versus Median MF sale price per square foot:  $531

    In a market like Cambridge, MA a multi family property offers a better equity opportunity and better cash flow, since your price point offers a better acquisition price.

    Median SF rental price per square foot:  $2.79      versus Median MF rental price price per square foot: $2.93

    Cambridge multis cash flow better with lower acquisition cost & offer a more efficient use of cash. Additionally, the rental market in Cambridge is strong and competitive, as a result defaults are generally low.

    Springfield, MA:

     Median SF sale price per square foot: $142 versus Median MF sale price per square foot: $76

    Median SF rental price per square foot: $1.10 versus Median MF rental price price per square foot: $1.22

    Springfield multis cash flow better with lower acquisition cost BUT are a less efficient use of cash because vacancy rates & average cost of eviction are high.  The lower cost of acquisition accounts for the increased holding costs (evictions/vacancies are holding costs in our opinion), but the houses in Springfield are old and typically require new roofs, heat, electrical and plumbing updates at the time of acquisition.

    The point that I am trying to make is that you should not apply a general rule when you are investing, particularly when you are investing out of state.  We like to evaluate rentals like flips, we like a 75% equity position walking in (we account for repairs in this calculation).  Generally, you are better off investing close to you (1.5 hours is close by our definition).  I suggest focusing less on number of doors, and paying more attention to your equity position at time of purchase and the efficiency of your cash.  

    Real estate investing is a wonderful thing, but there is high inherent downside risk.  If you are not full time, invest aggressively BUT limit your downside risk by attempting to have a high margin of safety.  I hope this helps!! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2020 · 50 posts · 102 votes
    6y

    @Jack Orthman incredible summary. Thank you.

  • Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Moises R Cosme that is a very interesting way of thinking about things. I obviously have a lot to learn moving forward. So your strategy doesn’t involve much leverage? 75% equity in a property is much higher than many people on these forums! Thank you for your response 

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Tyler Smith

    My wife and I debate this all the time. We own a few properties, among those we have 1 sfr and 1 duplex. Depending on how much you purchase for is where you find your greatest roi, obviously. However I believe when you have a small Mf and the tenants are able to have their own yards, it breaks them away from the apartment mentality. I’ve found if we can find a value add small Mf for around $50,000 per door in a decent B neighborhood, it’s usually a great deal.

    Our house nets around 550 per month. The rent is much higher than the duplex though. About 1350

    Our duplex nets about 725. 1 roof, 1 tax, 1 insurance

    1br 725

    2br 850

    As you can see the mortgage, tax, and insurance equal to about the same. My wife does an amazing job screening, showing and filling the units. Quality tenants are found by a quality questionnaire.

  • Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 61 posts · 86 votes
    6y

    Ideally multi-family properties get more cashflow -- BUT i have noticed in my duplexes that none of my tenants like each other, and if there is a shared ANYTHING, like driveway, lawn, basement etc. they tend to have annoying, petty issues. 

    Also on a SF, say 3-bed 1 bath 1000 sq. ft. the rehab is SO much less overwhelming! I have rehabbed 3 duplexes and 1 SF, and the SF is a breeze comparitively...and some of my investor friends agree with that. 

    I have switched strategies to SF, bc I do a lot of the work myself and I can do it much more efficiently on an SF.

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Johnny Wolff:

    @Tyler Smith - I typically purchase slightly below the median or at median price and focus on nicer areas with reasonable (6-8%) cash returns.  Can't figure out why folks chase high yield in RE...that extra $75/mo in cashflow isn't going to change their life in any material way.  But constant churn from the tenants in the high yield areas will definitely disrupt your life (and so will a $6K make-ready).

    @Lee Ripma and I were discussing this exact thing the other day.  RE's "fountain of youth" of 10-12% cash on cash returns work for @Brandon Turner, but he's a pro with a global network at this point in his investing career with a lot of advantages that most of us don't have.  Give me singles and doubles all day every day.  Home Run swings typically lead to strikeouts in all asset classes - RE is no different.  Invest well, for the long term, you'll do well.

    I agree with a lot of your sentiment especially about considering effort in any investment choice. However, taking into account effort, I do not see how you can invest in residential buy and hold for 6% to 8% COC. Note the S&P500 has produced almost a 10% return of the life of the S&P500 for a fraction of the effort.

    I realize the desire for tangible assets, but using your own statement about disruption of life, the better choice would be long term S&P500 hold.

    I would never purchase a residential buy and hold RE that is projected to have a COC less than 10% (I use conservative projections). Too much effort for a return that historically is achieved with a very passive S&P 500.

    I like your message, but do not agree that those returns are singles when accounting for the level of effort (more like sacrifice bunts).  I think there are numerous investments that can out perform those singles that require less effort.

    Good luck

  • Lodi CA · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    @Jack Orthman hi jack I'm about to jump into out of st investing sfr looking at KC. I myself live in cali and have prop in Northridge ca but live in norcal would like to connect with you for same type of advice. Thanks

  • Lodi CA · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    @Johnny Wolff I'm getting ready to jump into your market! Just need to set up a team. Any advice?? I'll most likely be posting in BP soon and putting myself out there. Thanks!

  • MD · Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 23 votes
    6y

    @Tyler Smith

    Would love to find a 4-plex for that price haha. Tell me which market were you looking in?

  • MD · Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 23 votes
    6y

    @Cale Hutcherson

    Can you share your tenant questionnaire? I would be interested in learning how to better screen tenants.

  • Knoxville, TN · Member since 2018 · 50 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @James G. I was getting those prices just by looking at different turnkey providers websites and seeing what they offer. The $60-$70k was a down payment so we purchase price would be around $250k-$325K. I’m kinda liking Little Rock and Memphis right now just based on the numbers

  • Lender · Plymouth Meeting, PA · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 18 votes
    6y

    In the end, there's not a right or wrong answer as to "what's best?" when it comes to SFR vs MF (2-4units.) There's too many variables, and it all depends on what your personal and financial goals are.

    But, the business plan, execution of the plan, and the operator (both you and the PM company) behind each respective investment strategy is the key!  In most scenario's you still have to manage the management company, to some degree.

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Here is the questionnaire. People who don’t answer every question or fail to answer truthfully are not considered. Once someone answers all of the questions and pass a thorough background check (social media, county websites, past employments etc.) we will move forward. So a lot of tenants are weeded out that could pose to be hard to deal with. I like to call it the application funnel. It allows us to save a lot of time and energy, while producing some very qualified tenants.

    We also use a move in/move out checklist to make sure the property is provided and then returned in clean, working order. It itemizes everything from replacing a light bulb to cleaning under the oven, and is specified for each room. There is a dollar amount for each item and gives an up front expectation.


     
    If interested, answer the following questions:

    1. Full name(s) of all prospective tenants desiring to live at the property.

    2. Place of employment for each prospective tenant.

    3. Can you/all provide proof of income?

    4. Current living address.

    5.How long have you lived there?

    6. Who do you currently live with?

    7. Why are you moving?

    8. Have you ever been evicted?

    9. Who would be living in the home with you?

    10. Pets? If so, what?

    11. Any criminal history for anyone?

    12. When do you want to move in?

    13. Background checks and credit checks will be ran. If you disclose this information to me, and what you tell me aligns with what the reports disclose, I will waive the application fee, as I value honesty more than $50.00

    14. Anything else to add about yourself?

    I will not respond to messages simply asking if this is available.

    No scheduling of viewing the property will be completed until following the advertising period and pre-screening process.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Leominster, MA · Member since 2020 · 667 posts · 384 votes
    6y

    @Tyler Smith   I use 25% equity, 75% debt; leverage allows us to juice our returns.  A lot of the things posted on the forums or discussed on the podcasts focus on the big picture, you do NOT have to do that... All you are worried about is the deal in front of you.  Take your time - run all of the numbers, call the town etc.  A more direct way of looking at things: do you think Warren Buffett rushes through an investment decision?  

    Time is often of the essence when making a purchase decision, but rarely is it the case that you have less than 24 hours to evaluate a project.  I recommend building out a tool kit, sheets that allow you to evaluate numbers - taking time to look at each deal individually has kept me out of trouble. 

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