I never want to own a house again.

I never want to own a house again.

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes

I moved to DFW in 2005 about a year after law school and immediately purchased what I perceive as an expensive house. I spent way more than I should have and bought way more house than I needed. Like many people my age, I felt that a house was just something you had to buy as soon as you could (and especially when you have kids) and that with my first “real” job, I had made it. That purchase was single handedly the dumbest financial move I’ve ever made. About a year after moving in, the price dropped to a point that I couldn’t liquidate it. It forced me to continue working at high stress, high paying jobs to afford it. Worst of all, I came to believe I really loved the place and couldn’t picture living anywhere else. It was the proverbial golden handcuff. Fast forward eight years later and I believe I can now get out from under it and just walk away. I’m working like a madman to get it on the market and just the thought of getting away from it is liberating. Without owning this home, I’ll have so much more freedom and flexibility. I can live anywhere and choose to reduce my housing payment if I want. I’ve pretty much decided that I will never own a home again or at least own a home that can’t be immediately turned into a rental (multiple exit strategies). I have no idea where I’ll move if I sell it (maybe one of my rentals) but I don’t particularly care. It will definitely be smaller and less expensive.

I’m curious, though, has anyone actually done this before? I’d be interested to hear positive or negative experiences, or even just general thoughts about my plan. I notice a lot of younger people being smart on the front end and purchasing sfrs that can be rentals, but I haven’t really heard much about people doing what I’m doing (correcting their past mistakes). I did read a recent BP blog about an investor who wouldn’t own the house he lived in.
As a final note, it’s a pretty hilarious because anyone I’ve told that I’m selling believes that I’m trading up to the next colossal waste of money. (I had a buddy who lost $100k when he sold his house but then immediately went out and bought another expensive house.) The few people with whom I’ve been honest think I’m nuts.

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Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y

it's amazing how little people need to live comfortably. the general notion is to get as much as you and work as hard as you can to keep increasing your lifestyle. it baffles me every time why people put themselves in that situation every time.

i am probably richer than anyone i know and yet still live in a 3 bedroom 1,058 sq feet ranch house with a basement and loving my $680 monthly mortgage.

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  • Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by John Chapman:
    Lynn M. You kind of hit on one idea I'm toying with, picking up a fixer upper house, moving in and fixing it up, and then refinancing into owner occupied financing. (I'm capped out on Fannie financing as it is.) Then, if I want to move in a year or two, I can just turn it into a rental. Was it pretty hard dropping to a smaller house/worse neighborhood? That's the thing I'm most concerned about, but when I weighs the pros and cons for me, it seems like it would be worth it. I hadn't really thought about the regular, massive rent increases. (I haven't rented for a very long time.)

    My best advice would be make sure you still have a lifestyle. We struggled the first 6 months as we did not like our first choice near DC. Just felt we were giving up too much. We then moved from Alexandria to Annapolis after months of searching for a lifestyle that suited us better. We made sure we were walking distance from a great park with beautiful waterfront views, trails that end up at the river with a little sand beach, so my dog swims almost every day, and I don't feel so cramped, like that park is part of my backyard, too. There's shopping less than 1/2 mile away that has a weekly farmer's market in the parking lot May - Oct, a wine shop with a wine bar, a bakery, salon, etc. If you scale down too much, you'll go nuts pretty fast. We found out apartments don't allow grills, and usually have no space for gardens. Now, even though we're in a small space, we still have a small fenced backyard, perfect for our grill and a small garden. If you can still have those basic things you used to love doing in your own home, even on a much smaller scale, it's easier to adjust.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    13y

    Rob K You’re probably right at bottom about me being bummed about doing a bad RE deal and about buying too much house. However, I think it's more than just being bummed about a bad deal. I've done my share of bad deals and been fine (well, as fine as you can ever be from a bad deal). This one was positively suffocating and made at such a stupid point in my life. It really wasn’t a paper loss that I just had to ride out. Also, I don’t know how it was with you, but when I got this house I started getting attached to it in illogical ways. To me, that’s pretty problematic as a house is just a house.
    I started writing this post mainly because I think it’s pretty hard to deflate your lifestyle, even when it’s absolutely the right thing to do. I probably have skewed social circles, but every time I tell someone I’m selling they presume I’m trading up to a bigger more expensive house. The few whom I’ve told I’m trading down look at me like I’ve lost my mind.
    In answer to why I would rent something, it's for flexibility and nothing more. I've felt trapped with this house for some time. Moreover, at least in my market (as in most) there is a disconnect between rents and ARV the higher you go. That is, you can rent a $120K house for $1200/month but a $300K house for about $2000/month (maybe slightly more). Usually the higher end houses are just homeowners who can't sell. I wouldn't do that long term, mind you. Just temporarily until I figure out a long term plan.
    Don’t get me wrong. I love RE and l love owning my rentals. And I would definitely buy another house (that could be turned into a rental), move in fix it up, and then eventually rent it out. (The title of this post is probably a misleading.)

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    13y

    Thanks Lynn M. That sounds like really good advice.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    I think it is hard to deflate your lifestyle in the first half of your adult life, but once the kids are gone and you don't have as much energy/ambition for work, it can get easier. Good point about your peers. Surround yourself with people whose values you want to emulate. Much more fulfilling than chasing someone else's dream that doesn't match your values.

  • Investor · -, IL · Member since 2010 · 409 posts · 616 votes
    13y

    I myself have looked at the whole rent vs own deal. The one thing that makes a big difference now is that I am not interested in being mobile at the moment. With two kids (5 and 6) we are in a small town that has great schools, so we would not be moving for at least another 13 years at the earliest.

    Right now we have a 5 bed 2 bath house. Yes it is bigger than we need, but it is actually cheaper than renting. My PITI is only $650/month where as it would run about $900/month to rent something comparable. My expenses for upkeep are lower because I know I keep better care of it than a tenant would. Also this house is well insulated. The utilities run about $100 cheaper per month than our old house that was 1000 sq foot less.

    Even after the kids are grown and out of the house we will probably still stay here as it would not make sense to move elsewhere in our situation. Once the house is paid off we will drop $420/month off the PITI. Holding onto the big house also has nothing to do with ego or keeping up with the neighbors. I have told my wife I would be just as happy in a 800 sq foot trailer. If it has four walls and a roof I am happy.

    Every situation is obviously different so I think it comes down to running the numbers and deciding your lifestyle that will be the biggest factor.

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    it's amazing how little people need to live comfortably. the general notion is to get as much as you and work as hard as you can to keep increasing your lifestyle. it baffles me every time why people put themselves in that situation every time.

    i am probably richer than anyone i know and yet still live in a 3 bedroom 1,058 sq feet ranch house with a basement and loving my $680 monthly mortgage.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    John Chapman I'm not sure if you have read Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover, but it's a great book. I'm sure your lawyer buddies all have a Lexus and a shooter house. When you go to downsize, they will look at you the same way other vampires look at Count Chocula. So what? Let them know that you're on the Dave Ramsey plan and don't want to be making house payments when you're 50.

    I've had this discussion with my friends. They are typical consumers with big incomes and large spending. Every time they pull out a credit card, I ask them, "What's that?" Then I say, "Oh. I get it. You're buying something that you can't afford and then paying triple for it when you add up all the interest."

    I'm not sure how big your current house is. I'm sure your electric bill is sky high in the summer with that Dallas heat. It must get old cooling a bunch of space you're not using. I've heard that property taxes in Texas are high also. I think you have a good plan to get out of that house. I would go with the option of purchasing a smaller house with a low fixed rate. If you ever want to turn it into a rental, you will have that option. Or, you might stay there and pay it off in 15 years (or less) and then just have taxes, insurance, and maintenance to deal with.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    This is a great thread for 20 and 30 somethings.

    Live simply and and save/invest.

    If you want to be liquid at fifty, have choices, don't keep up with 90% of your peers and consume.

    Richest Man in Babylon strike a chord here?

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    13y

    Rob K I'm pretty familiar with Dave Ramsey's and generally agree with his approach. I should clarify one thing, though. I'm not really a recovering materialist. I'm generally frugal, don't go out to eat much, and have never owned a new car. I didn't buy a McMansion or buy a house to impress people because I thought was a hotshot lawyer. (Even then, I found most lawyers to be d-bags.) I bought my house because it was what the conventional wisdom said you were supposed to do, that is, buy a house that is commensurate with your income (3 times my income at the time.) Unfortunately, that approach requires you maintain that income for the next 30 years.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Pearland, TX · Member since 2013 · 163 posts · 32 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by John Chapman:
    Unfortunately, that approach requires you maintain that income for the next 30 years.

    Amen to that!!! Such a true statement that so many people struggle to live with today!

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by John Chapman:
    (Even then, I found most lawyers to be d-bags.)

    That's awesome.

    It sounds like you have given a lot of thought to everything and are doing the right thing.

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    13y

    In 2003, I bought a small house; the banker (Washington Mutual who is now out of biz) said, "You can get a much bigger house. Why don't you do that?" I asked who's going to contribute to my 401k & who is going to contribute to my emergency fund?

    I then was (literally) laughed off the block by friends & family. "What a dump!" "The house is so small." These people bought bigger house than they needed & took out home equity loans.

    Now, they're underwater & stuck. I rented out that thing last year & refinanced to a 20-year 3 years ago. My net worth was up nearly $12k in principal paydown & appreciation last year before selling expenses (when I sell).

    Oh, and as far as home ownership is concerned, my new home went up $20k in value in 6 months. I look at it as I just saved $ in mortgage payments, of which i pay NO taxes to Uncle Sam on.

    One more thing about home ownership; you get to deduct your interest & taxes.

  • Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
    13y

    $3,500 to rent a house in my neighborhood versus $2,200 a month for the one I bought in 2011. I think I'll stick to owning. Plus I am up about $100K in equity since I bought it right.

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    13y

    Thomas Stanley, author of "The Millionaire Next Door", "The Millionaire Mind", a few books on selling to the affluent from the 1980's that are still valid today - his last book was "Stop Acting Rich" - a very good book discussing how high income/high spending/low investing people live compared to the real millionaires who tend to be medium-high income/low spending/high investing.

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Hey John. I did the same thing, got a good paying secure job and immediately decided I needed to buy a house. Paid too much for it at the time (long before I was in REI myself to know better) and when I got a job transfer I opted to rent it out because the value was in the toilet with the market. I barely break even on it now, but still hanging onto it because the value is still too low.

    Unless you had an adjustable rate mortgage on it, you shouldn't panic just because the value dropped so hard. The value of a house only matters if you are trying to sell it. If the value is down, just don't sell it. Easy.

    But I'm with you. I will doubtfully ever own again, and if I do it's more likely to be a second-home type of thing or I'm just so loaded it doesn't matter. My primary is too likely to change and I don't want to be locked into anything. Plus, the reality of owning a home is it is absolutely a liability. The cost of it is insane, and people have no idea!

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Long Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 432 posts · 63 votes
    13y

    There was a time after I bought my first house in my 20s that it felt like an anchor around my neck. It wasn't the payment but the fact that it could not be quickly liquidated (no appreciation and a slow market) and I wanted freedom. I vowed I would never buy a house again.

    Fast forward 15 years having lived in 2 different countries, a new marriage, a different state and one day a For Sale sign went up in the "apartment complex." (It was really a condo complex but I didn't even know it.) I talked to the agent and asked the price, then went upstairs and took out my calculator to discover we were paying more in rent than if we bought that unit for sale. My husband came home from work and I said, "Honey, we're going to buy a house." He thought I had lost my mind after hearing my mantra--"a house is like an anchor around your neck." We decided we would only buy a house on a 15-year-mortgage that was no more than we would pay in rent so we could easily rent it out if we got gypsy fever and wanted to move somewhere else again. We don't own very many properties (4) but we've bought them all that way...except for one...

    More recently we made your mistake and I knew it within a few weeks of buying "our dream home on the beach." Ug! That anchor again! We got rid of it, lost money and are back on our sound principles of cash-only or maybe a 15-year-mortgage with a payment cheaper than rent.

    I think emotionally you might feel o.k. if you buy a house to live in if it's one that could very easily be rented for more than the PITI. Someone earlier said, "Even if you rent, you are paying for the house you live in."

  • Investor · Cypress, TX · Member since 2013 · 403 posts · 59 votes
    13y

    I'm opposite of most on this thread as I would never rent again. My situation is a little different though. I live in a awesome market where your not paying $400k for a 2 bedroom home though too. I also am not a home jumper. I have only lived in two homes and don't plan on possibly moving from this one until my kids moves out. They are in a really good school district and don't want to take them out of that. So for me it is all worth it.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y

    You have to live somewhere. If it is a break even to rent vs own financially, I will take ownership almost every time. We all have different tastes, interests, values, etc. I'd rather have more control over my space than the ability to dump and run.

    I guess the question is; what are you going to do with all this money you save? I think you had mentioned changing jobs and working as a teacher possibly in another thread.

    I think your plan to buy something for yourself where you can put in some sweat equity and have a convertible investment is the best way to go. My though is that by the time I get to an income where I have the "problems" you have, I would probably be shopping around for land that is beautiful and with much potential - maybe even to build my own perfect little house to suit all my wants and needs.

    If you take out the mobility issue, you can make a bigger DP to offset the PITI. This can even be beyond what makes a good return on equity in my opinion. I say this because usually when I buy stuff that I want, it is to be consumed and enjoyed. I would be okay with that in a house that I lived it too, as long as it is not to excess and to the sacrifice of my happiness in other areas of my life. I think the lower PITI for a nicer house is a great way to go if you can afford it.

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