Who's at the most financial/leverage risk in a recession?

Who's at the most financial/leverage risk in a recession?

Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes

Hi Team - I wanted to walk through a couple of quick thoughts on what I see as the most at-risk parties in a potential recession. 

1) Middle-Class Homeowners - A middle-class homeowner reliant on one source of income, with a large mortgage payment on a recent purchase or refinance is at the highest risk of all parties involved in the real estate world that I can think of. Their wealth is likely highly concentrated in a single asset that is levered many multiples of their annual income. If they lose their job, they are screwed. If the property's value declines, their net worth becomes negative. Their saving grace is if they have a very long-term outlook and plan to live in the property indefinitely. They can, in this case, likely wait out any market timing issues, so long as they can cash flow the mortgage payments through thick and thin.

2) Syndicators, real estate private equity, and hedge funds - These folks scoop up properties, using other people's capital, and generate wealth on carried interest. Their debt is often financed with variable interest rates, balloon payments, and shorter amortization periods. They are also heavily dependent on market timing. While their terms may be flexible, they generally promise 2-5 year hold periods, and investors generally expect to exit within this timeframe. If the market drops, and does not recover, they are in trouble. If interest rates rise quickly, they see cap rates rise, and be unable to refinance or sell the assets. 

3) Small Mom and Pop Landlords using Creative Finance: DSCR, Seller financing, and other forms of private capital put these investors at substantial risk. If interest rates rise, they may be unable to refinance the debt at attractive rates, or sell the property. If rents and prices fall, the terms of their debt may force an exit at an inopportune moment.

4) Small Mom and Pop Landlords Using Conventional Loan Products - These folks are impacted by falling rents and prices, sure. But, if well-capitalized, they have tenants paying some/all of the mortgage payment on a cash flowing asset. They have their wealth spread across at least a few properties, rather than a single asset. They likely have a 30-year mortgage locked in at a fixed interest rate. They are in complete control of their selling time horizon, and can keep the property indefinitely until prices return.


While all of these players can win, I think it's important to recognize the risk profile and how the types of debt used to buy property can dramatically change the risk profile. The small time real estate investor using conventional financing is not getting rich as quickly in a bull market as some of the more "creative" investors. But, they are much less likely to lose their property or find themselves in a liquidity crunch in downturns as well. And, be smart about who you syndicate with, and understand that the projection models WILL NOT usually cover scenarios where cap rates rise by hundreds of basis points - and that scenario is all too realistic in a rising interest rate environment. 

No one can predict the market accurately, but we can understand the risks. 

Most of all, don't be the middle-class homeowner with the mortgage payment that stretches you to your financial limits. Unfortunately, that's the population that will get hit first and hardest in a real estate market downturn. The grind to dig out of that hole could cost many years of life. 

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
4y

Scott,

You missed the safest player of them all.. the investor who pays all cash and slowly builds up a portfolio with zero or very limited debt.. All assets no debt.. there are more of these investors than many on BP probably realize and of course up until now the limited debt investors get drowned out on BP as crazy.. your leaving equity in the deal its dead equity blah blah blah.

But those are the folks that can weather any storm  I have bought many a foreclosure from number 4 when tenants trashed the units they could not get them up and running and just walked away disgruntled..

I know its not a popular position on BP  but since you brought it up.. So there is a balance for sure.. and that is why I like to suggest investors try to pay down debt when they can and try to have paid for assets and be very cautious on what type of assets they take debt on. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Syndicator · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 903 posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Good advice! A common theme here is know what you are doing :) I've been in every spot but the number one, I still keep my 3br house even if we could upscale to larger(Let's me invest the extra instead). 

    I think for those who use debt, conservative is the name of the game right now. 

    If you don't know how to buy with conservative numbers, it could be wise to not invest with debt right now. This means, exit cap rates higher than entry, below expected ARV projections, added reserves for capex, higher refinance interest rates or exit interest rates(similar to exit cap rates), etc.

    If these don't make sense, proceed with caution as an active investor. This being said, I've been cautioned to not buy real estate with debt since 2018. There is plenty of opportunity in an up or down market and arguments on both sides of the coin for debt or cash investors. 

    Case in point, I am seeing hard money lenders are at rates of 7-10%, for 6 months with 1/2 point at 80-90% LTV! Opportunity for the right investor. Disaster for another. Fear and recession creates opportunity but if you don't know what you are doing, be cautious.

  • Rental Property Investor · Torrance, CA · Member since 2016 · 724 posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Jay Hinrichs I bought 2 SFR's cash in Indiana. One in 2019 and one in 2020. My original intention was to BRRRR but I never got around to the refi. Call me a simpleton but the feeling of owning 2 cashflowing assets free and clear outweighed the fact that I was getting a smaller return on investment. With the way everything is going I don't plan to pull equity any time soon. I'm grateful to be able to sleep at night knowing tough times are ahead.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y

    @Scott Trench those at risk share a universal marker; that they are tightly leveraged with restricted financial capacity in cash flow and or capital reserves, WITHOUT a knowledge capacity to rapidly pivot to adjust actions in response to a changing market. 

    For example, a high leveraged syndicator could look by most weights and measures to be at high risk, BUT, what may not be known is they already have a full game-plan for a market pivot where-in they will shift the portfolio of let's say SFR, too a C4D model in which the diminishing rent production is a non-issue because they are gaining significant capital inflow via the deposits on C4D, NOI via the spread on the interest rates on debt, and in a high inflation limited supply market, ample demand.

    Yes, leverage in a property matters, but like most things one can not hold tunnel vision of a single metric and assume knowledge of the whole, it's a spider-web of factors one needs to step back and take into account the relation of each factor upon the other. 

    As for this market/economy as a whole, 1 certainty is known that this is just the end of the beginning and things are going to get a lot more crazy from here. The political house is on fire, full fledged 5-alarm fire, as shown by the political scramble and search for direction. This is not just bad because it means were basically on a run-away train with no knowledgeable engineer running the thing, but because of the desperation, which leads to desperate actions. This is a massive X-factor to literally everything, extreme radical policy actions to try and solidify political base to retain power could, and most likely, will spell some insane actions and impacts upon the actual economic base, ie investors. 

    See as investors we live in this world of sense, 1+1=2, we understand to better meet housing demands is via empowering housing production, simple sane things. In the political world, none of that applies, a good example is shutting down a national economy and not predicting a supply chain issue, or issuing billions upon trillions and saying inflation is just "transitory", it's passing through, a short visit and will be gone in a few weeks...... Only in politics do you get such thoughts, and it's because they are professionals at being popular, not at actually doing anything in the real world. 

    This is the real risk, what insane actions could be next. 

    At this point, I don't see any way around Stagflation other then a dollar collapse/default which is a scenario I don't want to even think on because we are talking a horror show beyond comparison. And unfortunately, that's actually a realistic potential now, slim, but actually in realm of possible. The dollars value stands in most part from it's standing as world reserve currency, remove that standing and the true next value is only on domestic utilization which we produce and export near to nothing anymore, intensely dependent on imports, that sets a value of somewhere around $0.04 on the dollar. Yeah, we are talking a wall on Mexican border to keep Americans out kind of bad. And if that happens, nobody's leverage matters, when the whole system burns to the ground, nobody will care about there individual debt, the focus will be how to eat there next meal. 

  • Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2022 · 16 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    @Connor Cushman I totally agree. Remember the last time unemployment rates went up big? Travel industry shrunk big time. I went to vegas in 2010 memorial weekend. Less then half the crowd as usual. Hopefully it won't happen again but it's best to prepare.

  • Rental Property Investor · Port St Lucie, FL · Member since 2019 · 150 posts · 79 votes
    4y

    @Connor Cushman Connor I agree with you on the folks that are getting into the STR market paying the high prices for their homes and basing cash flow on the STR market. I have converted some of my LTR's into STR's. However I bought when prices were low and am not over leveraged on any of my properties all with fixed low rate conventional loans. I don't see the STR market going away but cities are becoming stricter and more people getting into the STR game will definitely have an effect.

  • Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    If I had to pick a number....number 2.

    Right now in my market in Nashville larger funds are buying commercial multi fam for 0 cap rates. 

    Hedge funds buying single fam homes are comically over paying.

    The biggest issue with these large funds is that they have too much money to deploy and have to settle for near zero returns. 

    The safest folks are the mom and pop landlords with few rentals. They will do whatever it takes to survive as that's all they have. 

  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:


     Most folk thinks the source of inflation is mainly from Fed printing money, but if we examine the CPI closely, the crazy inflation only occurred mainly in two sectors: Energy and gas. It started in Feb after Ukraine invasion and russia oil embargo by the western country.

    it started long before then, just pull up the oil chart.
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Luka Milicevic:

    If I had to pick a number....number 2.

    Right now in my market in Nashville larger funds are buying commercial multi fam for 0 cap rates. 

    Hedge funds buying single fam homes are comically over paying.

    The biggest issue with these large funds is that they have too much money to deploy and have to settle for near zero returns. 

    The safest folks are the mom and pop landlords with few rentals. They will do whatever it takes to survive as that's all they have. 


    In US, average CRE/MF cap rate is now 2.5-3%, especially west coast region.
    But in Asia the cap rate is 1%, even sub zero cap-rate something. In Asia country, property owners buying property no longer for cash flow, but for the preservation of class status/hedging to black swan event and appreciation for the next 10 years.

    I checked institution that are smarter than me, their IRR projection (for SF) is around 8-9% so I guess those hedge funds that have long-term view, can still double their investment, in 10 years.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Great point, @Jay Hinrichs. I believe that within the next 5-7 years, I will begin transitioning my portfolio to become debt free for a variety of reasons. The most important of which being my "why" - I want a stable portfolio that comfortably provides way more cash flow than I need, and which is indexed more or less to inflation. 

    How do we find and amplify the voices of the all-cash investors who have been getting rich slowly? 

    @Scott TrenchYou have the platform to raise capital and purchase hundreds of millions in real estate (and sign non-recourse loans for amounts that would make your head spin).

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mike Dymski:
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Great point, @Jay Hinrichs. I believe that within the next 5-7 years, I will begin transitioning my portfolio to become debt free for a variety of reasons. The most important of which being my "why" - I want a stable portfolio that comfortably provides way more cash flow than I need, and which is indexed more or less to inflation. 

    How do we find and amplify the voices of the all-cash investors who have been getting rich slowly? 

    @Scott TrenchYou have the platform to raise capital and purchase hundreds of millions in real estate (and sign non-recourse loans for amounts that would make your head spin).


    Brandon Turner case in point !!!
  • Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Great point, @Jay Hinrichs. I believe that within the next 5-7 years, I will begin transitioning my portfolio to become debt free for a variety of reasons. The most important of which being my "why" - I want a stable portfolio that comfortably provides way more cash flow than I need, and which is indexed more or less to inflation. 

    How do we find and amplify the voices of the all-cash investors who have been getting rich slowly? 


    You have them on BP  Gary in Ohio and Bill down in Vegas to name a few .. plus one of the guys I really admire for his fantastic advice is Steve up in Wenatchee.  

    What I think the homeowner safety net is going to be is the fact that I dont know how many millions of mortgages were written sub 3.5% but its a ton.. and for those with where rents are the only way they lose their home is over  JOB  Divorce or health and those things happen in all economy's and to all walks of life..   Playing in the distressed asset field for all these years this is the root cause along with simply being very poor money managers and using too much credit to their detriment.. you know the 250k house with 100k in cars the boat and the RV. LOL


     Jay,

    Thanks for the shout out. I was knocked a ton for not using leverage. Could never understand the idea that paying a bank all your profit made sense.

    Joe Villanueva I'm not. Never understood how locked up equity is bad. Give me paid for sfr's (up to about 150 now)  and I sleep better at night. Not well, just better LOL.

    Gary

  • Robert TinkerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2019 · 251 posts · 159 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Toby Kim:
    Quote from @Eric James:

    I think it depends on details of what happens in the economy. We may be moving into a recession....but accompanied by high inflation.  If so, prices may actually go up, rather than down. Including rents. But people will have difficulty affording the high prices. In a high inflationary environment  wouldn't having low, fixed rate income producing debt be attractive? Or any debt that is lower than the inflation rate. And it's  an open question as to just how far the Fed will be willing to raise interest rates if/when we go into a deepening recession. 

    Inflation increases when money supply increases. Money supply = all cash AND credit in the economy. By lowering interest rates you would incentive more people to borrow money since it’s so cheap. Now there is more money and supply and same production levels.

    Imagine an economy of an island that only produces coconuts. Let’s say there is 20 coconuts produced per year. Money supply is $100. If everyone spends their money the coconuts are $5/coconut. Next year government makes interest rate 0% so banks can loan money at any interest rate to make money so they offer .05% interest loans. Now people rush in to get all this credit and the money supply explodes to $200 in the economy. No change in production. Same number of coconut trees and coconut farmers, etc. Now there is $200 in the economy and 20 coconuts. Everyone spends their money and coconuts end up at $10/coconut. Inflation rose 100%. Obviously our economy is more complicated but that is why low interest rates produce inflation and why the Fed is so gung-ho about jacking them up.


  • Robert TinkerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2019 · 251 posts · 159 votes
    4y

    One of the biggest and not mentioned too often is fuel prices, especially diesel. EVERYTHING, practically speaking is brought to market by a truck. Until these prices of fuel go down inflation will continue no matter what the interest rate is.

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