Starting an LLC in Wyoming, While Investing in California
Member since 2023 · 8 posts · 3 votes
Starting an LLC in Wyoming, While Investing in California
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CPA and Attorney · San Diego, attorney · Member since 2022 · 301 posts · 219 votes
3yCalifornia is generally more cumbersome than other states when it comes to taxes and filings. Even if you create a non-CA LLC, if you are managing the business from California, you will likely be deemed to be "doing business" in California and therefore likely subject to CA taxes. California charges a minimum tax of $800 a year per LLC, and more if you have gross receipts in excess of $250k. So, if you create an LLC in another state, you will likely need to register it as a foreign LLC in California. Though, this process will be the same for the other state (if you created a CA LLC you may need to register it as a foreign LLC in the state in which you are doing business/holding property). This means that you will probably need to pay registration and filing fees in at least 2 states if you don't buy CA property as a CA resident.
Be sure to tell your accountant that you may now need to file non-resident income tax returns in each state where you own property as well. CA taxes residents on worldwide income but may provide a credit for taxes paid to other states.
Most likely the state where the property is located is where lawsuits would be brought if they are something for personal injury like a trip and fall or something of that nature because the “cause of action” arose in that state. So even if you pick a state with stronger protections like WY or NV, the cause of action arose in the state where the tenant fell, so likely that the court where the accident happened would have jurisdiction. Of course, with all things, the answers to all these matters will depend on the circumstances.
California tends to have more laws on the books and requirements and restrictions that it can be a good idea to form a CA LLC for out of state property so that you as a CA resident are covered, and to try to have your contracts fall under the purview of CA courts. It also is helpful to have a California LLC in case you ever sell that property and move into another state so that you do not need to form a new LLC altogether with new operating agreement, just re-register in the new state as a new foreign LLC. Also, the state of formation is likely where internal disputes would be brought among LLC members, so if you and a partner and/or spouse live in CA, you probably want to arbitrate in CA if the two of you had a disagreement. But, that is not always the right answer and you should speak with someone familiar with your personal situation to get advice specific to you.
*This post is informational only and is not to be relied upon. Readers are advised to seek professional advice. This post does not create an attorney-client or CPA-client relationship.
6 Replies
- Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes3y
Quote from @Joseph Taylor:
Hello All.
I'm going to start an LLC to buy an investment property in San Diego,CA. I need an LLC for access to funding (hard money or otherwise?) and I've been told starting an LLC in Wyoming is beneficial.
As stated, I live in California and will be investing in real estate in California.
Does anyone have any experience in having an LLC from Wyoming and investing under it in California?
Thanks in advance!
Joseph
California has a franchise tax on LLCs regardless of where they were formed.
- Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes3y
@Joseph Taylor
Why do Wyoming / if it’s for anonymity there are probably 10,000 Joe Taylor’s in the country.
Your just adding additional costs to yourself.
7e investments53 Reviews - CPA and Attorney · San Diego, attorney · Member since 2022 · 301 posts · 219 votes3y
California is generally more cumbersome than other states when it comes to taxes and filings. Even if you create a non-CA LLC, if you are managing the business from California, you will likely be deemed to be "doing business" in California and therefore likely subject to CA taxes. California charges a minimum tax of $800 a year per LLC, and more if you have gross receipts in excess of $250k. So, if you create an LLC in another state, you will likely need to register it as a foreign LLC in California. Though, this process will be the same for the other state (if you created a CA LLC you may need to register it as a foreign LLC in the state in which you are doing business/holding property). This means that you will probably need to pay registration and filing fees in at least 2 states if you don't buy CA property as a CA resident.
Be sure to tell your accountant that you may now need to file non-resident income tax returns in each state where you own property as well. CA taxes residents on worldwide income but may provide a credit for taxes paid to other states.
Most likely the state where the property is located is where lawsuits would be brought if they are something for personal injury like a trip and fall or something of that nature because the “cause of action” arose in that state. So even if you pick a state with stronger protections like WY or NV, the cause of action arose in the state where the tenant fell, so likely that the court where the accident happened would have jurisdiction. Of course, with all things, the answers to all these matters will depend on the circumstances.
California tends to have more laws on the books and requirements and restrictions that it can be a good idea to form a CA LLC for out of state property so that you as a CA resident are covered, and to try to have your contracts fall under the purview of CA courts. It also is helpful to have a California LLC in case you ever sell that property and move into another state so that you do not need to form a new LLC altogether with new operating agreement, just re-register in the new state as a new foreign LLC. Also, the state of formation is likely where internal disputes would be brought among LLC members, so if you and a partner and/or spouse live in CA, you probably want to arbitrate in CA if the two of you had a disagreement. But, that is not always the right answer and you should speak with someone familiar with your personal situation to get advice specific to you.
*This post is informational only and is not to be relied upon. Readers are advised to seek professional advice. This post does not create an attorney-client or CPA-client relationship.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes3y
Quote from @Joseph Taylor:
All the self-proclaimed experts talk about the need for an LLC, but they never talk about the added expenses or complexity. Know that you need it before you spend any time or money.
An LLC is useful for two things: anonymity and legal protection. In most cases, neither is warranted.
Warning: I am not an attorney and this can be a complicated topic. Please note the information provided below is a layman's definition designed to provide a basic understanding for the general audience. You should consult an attorney or CPA for your specific situation.
ANONYMITY: When you create the LLC, your name is recorded on the documents and published on the Secretary of State website for all to see. So you're not completely anonymous. If you want to be completely anonymous, you can use a Registered Agent. The Registered Agent will record the documents on your behalf so only their name and information appears on the documents. I've done this with my properties because I'm well known in my small town and don't want people to know what I own.
LEGAL PROTECTION: By placing your assets in an LLC, you are legally separating them from your personal assets. If someone injures themselves and sues, they will be suing the LLC and not you personally. If your insurance coverage isn't enough, they could seize the LLC assets, but not your personal assets.
Additional thoughts:
1. An LLC is not free. You can spend as little as $100 to form an LLC, or you could use an attorney and spend $1,000 or more. There are also additional costs of operating and maintaining an LLC, like separate bank accounts, annual report filings, tax filings, etc.
2. There are rules to follow! If you fail to follow the rules, you may open your personal assets to a lawsuit. An example of this would be mixing your personal money and LLC money in the same bank account.
3. You do not need a separate LLC for each property or a series LLC! Don't make your life more complicated than it has to be. Most professionals will recommend a separate LLC for every $1 million in assets but I don't think that's necessary. In my case, I have residential rentals in one LLC, commercial properties in another, self storage in a third, and my real estate company operates in a fourth. Some have more than $1 million in equity while others have less.
4. The need for an LLC is grossly exaggerated on BiggerPockets and other websites. Have you ever heard of a Landlord being sued by a Tenant and losing property? I've been on this board since 2010 and haven't found an example yet. You've probably heard of big Landlords losing property, but only because they were flagrantly violating Fair Housing, running a slum, or otherwise violating the law in an egregious manner. You are more likely to be struck by lightning twice. The vast majority of lawsuits against Landlords are for wrongful eviction, security deposit disputes, and Fair Housing Violations. Your basic insurance policy with $300,000 in liability coverage should be sufficient in 99.999% of all lawsuits.
5. The best protection for you and your investments? Know and obey the law. I manage around 400 rentals with 12 years experience and have never been sued once. Even if I were sued, I document everything and obey the law, so I won't be found guilty. Even if I were found guilty, the cost would be in the thousands, not in the millions. Insurance would cover it, I would pay the deductible, and no assets would be lost.
If you are in an area like San Diego where people are more likely to sue, a judge is more likely to find you guilty, and the payout is likely to be higher, then you may consider an umbrella insurance policy. This policy will provide additional coverage above what your existing policy covers. It's easy to obtain, costs very little, and doesn't require additional, on-going effort to maintain.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Member since 2023 · 8 posts · 3 votes3y
Quote from @Katie Balatbat:
California is generally more cumbersome than other states when it comes to taxes and filings. Even if you create a non-CA LLC, if you are managing the business from California, you will likely be deemed to be "doing business" in California and therefore likely subject to CA taxes. California charges a minimum tax of $800 a year per LLC, and more if you have gross receipts in excess of $250k. So, if you create an LLC in another state, you will likely need to register it as a foreign LLC in California. Though, this process will be the same for the other state (if you created a CA LLC you may need to register it as a foreign LLC in the state in which you are doing business/holding property). This means that you will probably need to pay registration and filing fees in at least 2 states if you don't buy CA property as a CA resident.
Be sure to tell your accountant that you may now need to file non-resident income tax returns in each state where you own property as well. CA taxes residents on worldwide income but may provide a credit for taxes paid to other states.
Most likely the state where the property is located is where lawsuits would be brought if they are something for personal injury like a trip and fall or something of that nature because the “cause of action” arose in that state. So even if you pick a state with stronger protections like WY or NV, the cause of action arose in the state where the tenant fell, so likely that the court where the accident happened would have jurisdiction. Of course, with all things, the answers to all these matters will depend on the circumstances.
California tends to have more laws on the books and requirements and restrictions that it can be a good idea to form a CA LLC for out of state property so that you as a CA resident are covered, and to try to have your contracts fall under the purview of CA courts. It also is helpful to have a California LLC in case you ever sell that property and move into another state so that you do not need to form a new LLC altogether with new operating agreement, just re-register in the new state as a new foreign LLC. Also, the state of formation is likely where internal disputes would be brought among LLC members, so if you and a partner and/or spouse live in CA, you probably want to arbitrate in CA if the two of you had a disagreement. But, that is not always the right answer and you should speak with someone familiar with your personal situation to get advice specific to you.
*This post is informational only and is not to be relied upon. Readers are advised to seek professional advice. This post does not create an attorney-client or CPA-client relationship.
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