Hot Topic: Rates don't matter nearly as much as you think they do

Hot Topic: Rates don't matter nearly as much as you think they do

Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes

Before people get in my DMs or up in arms about how important interest rates are please take a moment to read in its entirety to understand what I mean.

As a mortgage broker and banker, I often hear that a client of mine is "shopping" interest rates.  (This is already a bit ironic, because my full-time job, 50+ hours and 5-6 days a week is shopping for rates and products, so I am pretty good at it).  But I get the sentiment and understand why people feel the need to do this.  I see this mostly with new and inexperienced investors which is why I wanted to write this post to help newer investors avoid some of the pitfalls I see every day.  Caveat, experienced investors rarely "shop" they usually have one or two lenders that specialize in certain products, keep all of the investor's data on file with current documents and they tend to care more about convenience, experience, and just getting the deal closed so they will continue to go to the same lender who can make that happen.  Granted that relationship likely took years and a few transactions to cultivate.

The 3 biggest mistakes I see new investors make when "shopping":

1) Tunnel vision on the interest rate.  As I stated above this does not matter because banks and brokers do a lot of different gimmicks to try and make their rate look better.  Example: I say that as of today your rate is 7% for an investment, but Lender 2 says he can get you 6.75%.  If you look at the rate in a vacuum, you will miss all the other charges on the Loan Estimate.  Getting a full, locked loan estimate is the only way to truly compare the two.  If the 7% has no points and the 6.75% has 1 point in cost, then you would have to go back to me and ask me what paying 1 point in cost would get you as a rate, and that number might be 6.5%.  So how do you cut through the noise to find the base rate?  *Lenders are going to be mad at me for this one* ask them what their base rate is (ask them what the par rate would be for that product if it was "borrower paid compensation").  This filters the rate down to show what their actual rate is with none of their compensation, or anything attached to it.  You will start to see the actual variations in the rate.  Also worth comparing processing and underwriting fees, and really any fees that are in Section A of the Loan Estimate. 

2) Not understanding the value of experience and relationships. I have had clients switch lenders over $500 on fees. (Often, they end up coming back to fix the deal after they realize that you get what you pay for, yes, even in lending). While I do price competitively, I am personally not competing with the "race to the bottom" lenders that will do loans for almost free because their model is volume. I personally prefer to be more on the advising and relationship side so I can give my clients more tailored solutions, help them avoid pitfalls, connect them to people that can help them grow and structure their portfolios and I treat this industry more as a relationship business rather than a transactional business. I am an investor first and remember how frustrating lending was when I was starting out, so I try to be a coach, cheerleader, and trusted advisor for clients and these things take a lot more time and require more intangibles than just rate and costs. It is the difference between a Hilton and a motel 6. One gives you microwaved waffles and a room, the other greets you at the door has hot towels ready, tells you where the sights and sounds are and caters a multi course meal to your room. Sure, both gave you a place to stay, and the motel six had the "better rate" as far as pricing. But when you are making a large multi hundred-thousand-dollar investment, why would you want the cheapest person in your corner helping you make that decision. Would you want the cheapest accountant or the cheapest wealth advisor or the cheapest surgeon? My point that I am trying to drive home is that most lenders are within a pretty tight shot group, and I would rather pay $500 - $1000 more for better advice, better service, better follow up, better communication etc. Just like many people ask about real estate friendly CPAs or investor friendly agents, I would be looking for experienced loan officers who also "buy what they sell". Do they just sell DSCR loans, or do they have them? Not to beat a dead horse here, but find a lender that you like working with, trust, and one that does a lot of transactions similar to yours, and is willing to say the hard things (i.e. "I am not a good lender for this program, you should go to..." or "that seller carry on a residential transaction is not actually possible in the lending landscape of today" etc).

3) Better rate, wrong program. This one is huge and pretty easy to illustrate. Conventional vs DSCR is the first that comes to mind. As investors we need to analyze things holistically not just in a vacuum. So, one of my favorite examples is this. Self Employed borrower makes good money in his/her business. They bring in, say 300k a year in revenue on the business with 200k being net profit. They have been in business for years and live in a home that they plan to live in for 5+ more years. They want to buy a rental property and are meeting with their CPA and lender to determine how much income they need to show to qualify for a conventional loan on an investment property. Lender determines they would need to show 150k in income to qualify for a 500k rental property. They live in California so their federal taxes on 150k would be about 23% ($34,500) and their state income taxes would be about ($13,950) for a total of $48,450. Let's say now that a conventional investment loan is 7% and they are taking out a $400k mortgage they will pay $2,661/month in principal and interest on a 30-year note. Now let's compare that to a DSCR loan where they pay 7.75% *screams in higher rate*. Now they are paying $2,866/month in principal and interest. That is $205/month or $2,460 a year more!! Who would do that? Well, the lender and CPA go back and look and see that client is not moving primary residence any time soon so now the CPA, lender, and client meet again to discuss income requirements. CPA knows that the business has a lot of expenses that could be written off if the borrower does not need to show as much income as before because DSCR does not look at income and the client does not need to take a large salary from the business to afford their lifestyle. So, CPA determines that actual taxable income for the year could be as low as $85,000. Now client will owe $10,200 on their federal taxes and $7,905 on the CA state income taxes for a total of $18,105. The client is saving over $30,000 on their taxes and only paying $2,460 extra in interest for the DSCR loan. This nets to a total savings of $27,885 for the client even though the rate was significantly higher. This scenario is extremely common and while I exaggerated numbers for effect, I have had this conversation with clients and their CPAs and the client is usually surprised when you put the numbers on paper. P.S. I know this, because I DO this, I have been variable/commission based for over 4 years now and I have a good real estate friendly CPA. I use DSCR products every time because of this exact analysis with my own CPA.

Sorry for the novel, but I find myself having these conversations over and over and I hope some people can benefit from some different perspective on lending.  :)

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Ned CareyPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
2y

@Clayton Silva I hear you. to many investors focus on the cheapest price and ignore the big picture. A great example is people calling around to find the cheapest title company (@Tom Gimer has discussed this) If you are doing a $100-400K transaction why would you try to save a few hundred dollars for good title work or legal advice. 

                                       New Investors Pay Attention

The profit fron real estate comes from doing good solid deals, not by being cheap and cutting corners.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    2y

    @Clayton Silva I hear you. to many investors focus on the cheapest price and ignore the big picture. A great example is people calling around to find the cheapest title company (@Tom Gimer has discussed this) If you are doing a $100-400K transaction why would you try to save a few hundred dollars for good title work or legal advice. 

                                           New Investors Pay Attention

    The profit fron real estate comes from doing good solid deals, not by being cheap and cutting corners.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ned Carey:

    @Clayton Silva I hear you. to many investors focus on the cheapest price and ignore the big picture. A great example is people calling around to find the cheapest title company (@Tom Gimer has discussed this) If you are doing a $100-400K transaction why would you try to save a few hundred dollars for good title work or legal advice. 

                                           New Investors Pay Attention

    The profit fron real estate comes from doing good solid deals, not by being cheap and cutting corners.

    best service, fastest turnaround, cheapest

    You can only choose 2 of 3.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ned Carey:

    @Clayton Silva I hear you. to many investors focus on the cheapest price and ignore the big picture. A great example is people calling around to find the cheapest title company (@Tom Gimer has discussed this) If you are doing a $100-400K transaction why would you try to save a few hundred dollars for good title work or legal advice. 

                                           New Investors Pay Attention

    The profit fron real estate comes from doing good solid deals, not by being cheap and cutting corners.


     1,000% true!

  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tom Gimer:
    Quote from @Ned Carey:

    @Clayton Silva I hear you. to many investors focus on the cheapest price and ignore the big picture. A great example is people calling around to find the cheapest title company (@Tom Gimer has discussed this) If you are doing a $100-400K transaction why would you try to save a few hundred dollars for good title work or legal advice. 

                                           New Investors Pay Attention

    The profit fron real estate comes from doing good solid deals, not by being cheap and cutting corners.

    best service, fastest turnaround, cheapest

    Choose 2 of 3.


     Haha I do this same thing when I have conversations with clients about fix and flip loans.  Highest leverage, best rates, and fastest closings...pick 2 of 3 because no bank has it all.

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    @Clayton Silva

    Welcome to the world. Price versus value. We have an amazing relationship with our community bank, and if the rate is a bit higher, the ease with which they work with us, the speed, and the relationship all make up for it.

    Thanks for an insightful post. Rates are only one part of the equation. Lot more variables to consider.

    Gino

  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Gino Barbaro:

    @Clayton Silva

    Welcome to the world. Price versus value. We have an amazing relationship with our community bank, and if the rate is a bit higher, the ease with which they work with us, the speed, and the relationship all make up for it.

    Thanks for an insightful post. Rates are only one part of the equation. Lot more variables to consider.

    Gino


     Precisely! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 19 votes
    2y

    @Clayton Silva

    Thank you. This was very informative and interesting. I’m curious, is there any incentive for a lender to charge a higher rate? I took your advice to mean they are only getting paid on their fees, not the rate charged.

  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Myles Johnson:

    @Clayton Silva

    Thank you. This was very informative and interesting. I’m curious, is there any incentive for a lender to charge a higher rate? I took your advice to mean they are only getting paid on their fees, not the rate charged.

    Lenders make their fee 1 of 2 ways typically.

    Lender paid compensation= the lender/broker fee is baked into the interest rate (most transactions are done this way but it makes it difficult to understand the actual base rate of the lender because they may charge more or less than other lenders so the comparison is not apples to apples).

    Borrower paid compensation = the comp is paid directly by the borrower as a line item in Section A. It will state broker origination or just origination fee.

    It's a bit of an accounting gimmick. Best way I can illustrate is two lenders both make 2% as compensation . Lender 1 charges it as lender paid so your rate is 6.5% with a 1 point cost (cost of rate). Lender 2 offers 6.5% with a 1 point credit (you the borrower are getting 1 point from the bank for taking a higher rate) but then they are charging 2 points on top of that as their compensation. So you end up with effectively the same thing; a 6.5% rate that costs you a point (lender 2 gave you 1 point from the bank and then took 2 points to pay themselves so you're still at 6.5% for a net of 1 point cost).  Lender 1 would rather skip that step and explanation so it's baked into the cake.

    What I mentioned above is just a way to get down to the nuts and bolts of the actual "base rate" offered by the lender.  

    Another huge thing to keep in mind is how much better pricing gets at different intervals. Example, every 20 points on your credit score is a jump in pricing and every 10% LTV is a big jump in pricing too. So if you're putting 20% down, sometimes it makes sense to put 21% down to see if pricing improves drastically. 

    To answer your direct question, most lenders charge their fee into the rate as lender paid comp in order to avoid the conversation about accounting. (It's not necessarily to hide anything, it's just a bit complex and will sometimes slow the process down explaining it to clients). It's easier to show than it is to explain.  Also each lender charges different compensation plans which is why shopping can be difficult for most people to truly compare rates and fees if they aren't in the weeds of this every day. 

    If this doesn't make any sense I'm always happy to show people with real world pricing and examples so just hit me up! (I'm a visual learner personally so I get it!)
  • Member since 2020 · 13 posts · 8 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Clayton Silva:

    Before people get in my DMs or up in arms about how important interest rates are please take a moment to read in its entirety to understand what I mean.

    As a mortgage broker and banker, I often hear that a client of mine is "shopping" interest rates.  (This is already a bit ironic, because my full-time job, 50+ hours and 5-6 days a week is shopping for rates and products, so I am pretty good at it).  But I get the sentiment and understand why people feel the need to do this.  I see this mostly with new and inexperienced investors which is why I wanted to write this post to help newer investors avoid some of the pitfalls I see every day.  Caveat, experienced investors rarely "shop" they usually have one or two lenders that specialize in certain products, keep all of the investor's data on file with current documents and they tend to care more about convenience, experience, and just getting the deal closed so they will continue to go to the same lender who can make that happen.  Granted that relationship likely took years and a few transactions to cultivate.

    The 3 biggest mistakes I see new investors make when "shopping":

    1) Tunnel vision on the interest rate.  As I stated above this does not matter because banks and brokers do a lot of different gimmicks to try and make their rate look better.  Example: I say that as of today your rate is 7% for an investment, but Lender 2 says he can get you 6.75%.  If you look at the rate in a vacuum, you will miss all the other charges on the Loan Estimate.  Getting a full, locked loan estimate is the only way to truly compare the two.  If the 7% has no points and the 6.75% has 1 point in cost, then you would have to go back to me and ask me what paying 1 point in cost would get you as a rate, and that number might be 6.5%.  So how do you cut through the noise to find the base rate?  *Lenders are going to be mad at me for this one* ask them what their base rate is (ask them what the par rate would be for that product if it was "borrower paid compensation").  This filters the rate down to show what their actual rate is with none of their compensation, or anything attached to it.  You will start to see the actual variations in the rate.  Also worth comparing processing and underwriting fees, and really any fees that are in Section A of the Loan Estimate. 

    2) Not understanding the value of experience and relationships. I have had clients switch lenders over $500 on fees. (Often, they end up coming back to fix the deal after they realize that you get what you pay for, yes, even in lending). While I do price competitively, I am personally not competing with the "race to the bottom" lenders that will do loans for almost free because their model is volume. I personally prefer to be more on the advising and relationship side so I can give my clients more tailored solutions, help them avoid pitfalls, connect them to people that can help them grow and structure their portfolios and I treat this industry more as a relationship business rather than a transactional business. I am an investor first and remember how frustrating lending was when I was starting out, so I try to be a coach, cheerleader, and trusted advisor for clients and these things take a lot more time and require more intangibles than just rate and costs. It is the difference between a Hilton and a motel 6. One gives you microwaved waffles and a room, the other greets you at the door has hot towels ready, tells you where the sights and sounds are and caters a multi course meal to your room. Sure, both gave you a place to stay, and the motel six had the "better rate" as far as pricing. But when you are making a large multi hundred-thousand-dollar investment, why would you want the cheapest person in your corner helping you make that decision. Would you want the cheapest accountant or the cheapest wealth advisor or the cheapest surgeon? My point that I am trying to drive home is that most lenders are within a pretty tight shot group, and I would rather pay $500 - $1000 more for better advice, better service, better follow up, better communication etc. Just like many people ask about real estate friendly CPAs or investor friendly agents, I would be looking for experienced loan officers who also "buy what they sell". Do they just sell DSCR loans, or do they have them? Not to beat a dead horse here, but find a lender that you like working with, trust, and one that does a lot of transactions similar to yours, and is willing to say the hard things (i.e. "I am not a good lender for this program, you should go to..." or "that seller carry on a residential transaction is not actually possible in the lending landscape of today" etc).

    3) Better rate, wrong program. This one is huge and pretty easy to illustrate. Conventional vs DSCR is the first that comes to mind. As investors we need to analyze things holistically not just in a vacuum. So, one of my favorite examples is this. Self Employed borrower makes good money in his/her business. They bring in, say 300k a year in revenue on the business with 200k being net profit. They have been in business for years and live in a home that they plan to live in for 5+ more years. They want to buy a rental property and are meeting with their CPA and lender to determine how much income they need to show to qualify for a conventional loan on an investment property. Lender determines they would need to show 150k in income to qualify for a 500k rental property. They live in California so their federal taxes on 150k would be about 23% ($34,500) and their state income taxes would be about ($13,950) for a total of $48,450. Let's say now that a conventional investment loan is 7% and they are taking out a $400k mortgage they will pay $2,661/month in principal and interest on a 30-year note. Now let's compare that to a DSCR loan where they pay 7.75% *screams in higher rate*. Now they are paying $2,866/month in principal and interest. That is $205/month or $2,460 a year more!! Who would do that? Well, the lender and CPA go back and look and see that client is not moving primary residence any time soon so now the CPA, lender, and client meet again to discuss income requirements. CPA knows that the business has a lot of expenses that could be written off if the borrower does not need to show as much income as before because DSCR does not look at income and the client does not need to take a large salary from the business to afford their lifestyle. So, CPA determines that actual taxable income for the year could be as low as $85,000. Now client will owe $10,200 on their federal taxes and $7,905 on the CA state income taxes for a total of $18,105. The client is saving over $30,000 on their taxes and only paying $2,460 extra in interest for the DSCR loan. This nets to a total savings of $27,885 for the client even though the rate was significantly higher. This scenario is extremely common and while I exaggerated numbers for effect, I have had this conversation with clients and their CPAs and the client is usually surprised when you put the numbers on paper. P.S. I know this, because I DO this, I have been variable/commission based for over 4 years now and I have a good real estate friendly CPA. I use DSCR products every time because of this exact analysis with my own CPA.

    Sorry for the novel, but I find myself having these conversations over and over and I hope some people can benefit from some different perspective on lending.  :)

    This is a great post. I'm definitely saving it for future information. 

    Thank you for that insight. 
  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jessica Cooper:
    Quote from @Clayton Silva:

    Before people get in my DMs or up in arms about how important interest rates are please take a moment to read in its entirety to understand what I mean.

    As a mortgage broker and banker, I often hear that a client of mine is "shopping" interest rates.  (This is already a bit ironic, because my full-time job, 50+ hours and 5-6 days a week is shopping for rates and products, so I am pretty good at it).  But I get the sentiment and understand why people feel the need to do this.  I see this mostly with new and inexperienced investors which is why I wanted to write this post to help newer investors avoid some of the pitfalls I see every day.  Caveat, experienced investors rarely "shop" they usually have one or two lenders that specialize in certain products, keep all of the investor's data on file with current documents and they tend to care more about convenience, experience, and just getting the deal closed so they will continue to go to the same lender who can make that happen.  Granted that relationship likely took years and a few transactions to cultivate.

    The 3 biggest mistakes I see new investors make when "shopping":

    1) Tunnel vision on the interest rate.  As I stated above this does not matter because banks and brokers do a lot of different gimmicks to try and make their rate look better.  Example: I say that as of today your rate is 7% for an investment, but Lender 2 says he can get you 6.75%.  If you look at the rate in a vacuum, you will miss all the other charges on the Loan Estimate.  Getting a full, locked loan estimate is the only way to truly compare the two.  If the 7% has no points and the 6.75% has 1 point in cost, then you would have to go back to me and ask me what paying 1 point in cost would get you as a rate, and that number might be 6.5%.  So how do you cut through the noise to find the base rate?  *Lenders are going to be mad at me for this one* ask them what their base rate is (ask them what the par rate would be for that product if it was "borrower paid compensation").  This filters the rate down to show what their actual rate is with none of their compensation, or anything attached to it.  You will start to see the actual variations in the rate.  Also worth comparing processing and underwriting fees, and really any fees that are in Section A of the Loan Estimate. 

    2) Not understanding the value of experience and relationships. I have had clients switch lenders over $500 on fees. (Often, they end up coming back to fix the deal after they realize that you get what you pay for, yes, even in lending). While I do price competitively, I am personally not competing with the "race to the bottom" lenders that will do loans for almost free because their model is volume. I personally prefer to be more on the advising and relationship side so I can give my clients more tailored solutions, help them avoid pitfalls, connect them to people that can help them grow and structure their portfolios and I treat this industry more as a relationship business rather than a transactional business. I am an investor first and remember how frustrating lending was when I was starting out, so I try to be a coach, cheerleader, and trusted advisor for clients and these things take a lot more time and require more intangibles than just rate and costs. It is the difference between a Hilton and a motel 6. One gives you microwaved waffles and a room, the other greets you at the door has hot towels ready, tells you where the sights and sounds are and caters a multi course meal to your room. Sure, both gave you a place to stay, and the motel six had the "better rate" as far as pricing. But when you are making a large multi hundred-thousand-dollar investment, why would you want the cheapest person in your corner helping you make that decision. Would you want the cheapest accountant or the cheapest wealth advisor or the cheapest surgeon? My point that I am trying to drive home is that most lenders are within a pretty tight shot group, and I would rather pay $500 - $1000 more for better advice, better service, better follow up, better communication etc. Just like many people ask about real estate friendly CPAs or investor friendly agents, I would be looking for experienced loan officers who also "buy what they sell". Do they just sell DSCR loans, or do they have them? Not to beat a dead horse here, but find a lender that you like working with, trust, and one that does a lot of transactions similar to yours, and is willing to say the hard things (i.e. "I am not a good lender for this program, you should go to..." or "that seller carry on a residential transaction is not actually possible in the lending landscape of today" etc).

    3) Better rate, wrong program. This one is huge and pretty easy to illustrate. Conventional vs DSCR is the first that comes to mind. As investors we need to analyze things holistically not just in a vacuum. So, one of my favorite examples is this. Self Employed borrower makes good money in his/her business. They bring in, say 300k a year in revenue on the business with 200k being net profit. They have been in business for years and live in a home that they plan to live in for 5+ more years. They want to buy a rental property and are meeting with their CPA and lender to determine how much income they need to show to qualify for a conventional loan on an investment property. Lender determines they would need to show 150k in income to qualify for a 500k rental property. They live in California so their federal taxes on 150k would be about 23% ($34,500) and their state income taxes would be about ($13,950) for a total of $48,450. Let's say now that a conventional investment loan is 7% and they are taking out a $400k mortgage they will pay $2,661/month in principal and interest on a 30-year note. Now let's compare that to a DSCR loan where they pay 7.75% *screams in higher rate*. Now they are paying $2,866/month in principal and interest. That is $205/month or $2,460 a year more!! Who would do that? Well, the lender and CPA go back and look and see that client is not moving primary residence any time soon so now the CPA, lender, and client meet again to discuss income requirements. CPA knows that the business has a lot of expenses that could be written off if the borrower does not need to show as much income as before because DSCR does not look at income and the client does not need to take a large salary from the business to afford their lifestyle. So, CPA determines that actual taxable income for the year could be as low as $85,000. Now client will owe $10,200 on their federal taxes and $7,905 on the CA state income taxes for a total of $18,105. The client is saving over $30,000 on their taxes and only paying $2,460 extra in interest for the DSCR loan. This nets to a total savings of $27,885 for the client even though the rate was significantly higher. This scenario is extremely common and while I exaggerated numbers for effect, I have had this conversation with clients and their CPAs and the client is usually surprised when you put the numbers on paper. P.S. I know this, because I DO this, I have been variable/commission based for over 4 years now and I have a good real estate friendly CPA. I use DSCR products every time because of this exact analysis with my own CPA.

    Sorry for the novel, but I find myself having these conversations over and over and I hope some people can benefit from some different perspective on lending.  :)

    This is a great post. I'm definitely saving it for future information. 

    Thank you for that insight. 

     My pleasure! My career is inherently a career of repeat conversations as I do the same transactions and processes over and over but this one always comes back and I felt like it was a worthwhile post to help clear the air for both lenders and clients alike :) 

  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Clayton Silva:
    Quote from @Myles Johnson:

    @Clayton Silva

    Thank you. This was very informative and interesting. I’m curious, is there any incentive for a lender to charge a higher rate? I took your advice to mean they are only getting paid on their fees, not the rate charged.

    Lenders make their fee 1 of 2 ways typically.

    Lender paid compensation= the lender/broker fee is baked into the interest rate (most transactions are done this way but it makes it difficult to understand the actual base rate of the lender because they may charge more or less than other lenders so the comparison is not apples to apples).

    Borrower paid compensation = the comp is paid directly by the borrower as a line item in Section A. It will state broker origination or just origination fee.

    It's a bit of an accounting gimmick. Best way I can illustrate is two lenders both make 2% as compensation . Lender 1 charges it as lender paid so your rate is 6.5% with a 1 point cost (cost of rate). Lender 2 offers 6.5% with a 1 point credit (you the borrower are getting 1 point from the bank for taking a higher rate) but then they are charging 2 points on top of that as their compensation. So you end up with effectively the same thing; a 6.5% rate that costs you a point (lender 2 gave you 1 point from the bank and then took 2 points to pay themselves so you're still at 6.5% for a net of 1 point cost).  Lender 1 would rather skip that step and explanation so it's baked into the cake.

    What I mentioned above is just a way to get down to the nuts and bolts of the actual "base rate" offered by the lender.  

    Another huge thing to keep in mind is how much better pricing gets at different intervals. Example, every 20 points on your credit score is a jump in pricing and every 10% LTV is a big jump in pricing too. So if you're putting 20% down, sometimes it makes sense to put 21% down to see if pricing improves drastically. 

    To answer your direct question, most lenders charge their fee into the rate as lender paid comp in order to avoid the conversation about accounting. (It's not necessarily to hide anything, it's just a bit complex and will sometimes slow the process down explaining it to clients). It's easier to show than it is to explain.  Also each lender charges different compensation plans which is why shopping can be difficult for most people to truly compare rates and fees if they aren't in the weeds of this every day. 

    If this doesn't make any sense I'm always happy to show people with real world pricing and examples so just hit me up! (I'm a visual learner personally so I get it!)

     I wanted to caveat on this because it seems like lenders might get paid more for higher rates. That is not typically true 99% of the time lenders are paid on the loan amount and this gets them incentivized to find best rates and win the deal so I apologize if that was confusing.

  • Erik EstradaBusiness Member
    Lender · Member since 2022 · 6k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    They always learn the hard way. We can try to tell them, explain to them, and even make several posts about it, but they will keep shopping and end up getting burned in the end. 

    But I think your post applies to almost everything in life. Competing over price is never a good situation. Competing over value is where the true savings are. 

    LuxePrivate Investments LLC 572 Reviews
  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Clayton Silva:

    Before people get in my DMs or up in arms about how important interest rates are please take a moment to read in its entirety to understand what I mean.

    As a mortgage broker and banker, I often hear that a client of mine is "shopping" interest rates.  (This is already a bit ironic, because my full-time job, 50+ hours and 5-6 days a week is shopping for rates and products, so I am pretty good at it).  But I get the sentiment and understand why people feel the need to do this.  I see this mostly with new and inexperienced investors which is why I wanted to write this post to help newer investors avoid some of the pitfalls I see every day.  Caveat, experienced investors rarely "shop" they usually have one or two lenders that specialize in certain products, keep all of the investor's data on file with current documents and they tend to care more about convenience, experience, and just getting the deal closed so they will continue to go to the same lender who can make that happen.  Granted that relationship likely took years and a few transactions to cultivate.

    The 3 biggest mistakes I see new investors make when "shopping":

    1) Tunnel vision on the interest rate.  As I stated above this does not matter because banks and brokers do a lot of different gimmicks to try and make their rate look better.  Example: I say that as of today your rate is 7% for an investment, but Lender 2 says he can get you 6.75%.  If you look at the rate in a vacuum, you will miss all the other charges on the Loan Estimate.  Getting a full, locked loan estimate is the only way to truly compare the two.  If the 7% has no points and the 6.75% has 1 point in cost, then you would have to go back to me and ask me what paying 1 point in cost would get you as a rate, and that number might be 6.5%.  So how do you cut through the noise to find the base rate?  *Lenders are going to be mad at me for this one* ask them what their base rate is (ask them what the par rate would be for that product if it was "borrower paid compensation").  This filters the rate down to show what their actual rate is with none of their compensation, or anything attached to it.  You will start to see the actual variations in the rate.  Also worth comparing processing and underwriting fees, and really any fees that are in Section A of the Loan Estimate. 

    2) Not understanding the value of experience and relationships. I have had clients switch lenders over $500 on fees. (Often, they end up coming back to fix the deal after they realize that you get what you pay for, yes, even in lending). While I do price competitively, I am personally not competing with the "race to the bottom" lenders that will do loans for almost free because their model is volume. I personally prefer to be more on the advising and relationship side so I can give my clients more tailored solutions, help them avoid pitfalls, connect them to people that can help them grow and structure their portfolios and I treat this industry more as a relationship business rather than a transactional business. I am an investor first and remember how frustrating lending was when I was starting out, so I try to be a coach, cheerleader, and trusted advisor for clients and these things take a lot more time and require more intangibles than just rate and costs. It is the difference between a Hilton and a motel 6. One gives you microwaved waffles and a room, the other greets you at the door has hot towels ready, tells you where the sights and sounds are and caters a multi course meal to your room. Sure, both gave you a place to stay, and the motel six had the "better rate" as far as pricing. But when you are making a large multi hundred-thousand-dollar investment, why would you want the cheapest person in your corner helping you make that decision. Would you want the cheapest accountant or the cheapest wealth advisor or the cheapest surgeon? My point that I am trying to drive home is that most lenders are within a pretty tight shot group, and I would rather pay $500 - $1000 more for better advice, better service, better follow up, better communication etc. Just like many people ask about real estate friendly CPAs or investor friendly agents, I would be looking for experienced loan officers who also "buy what they sell". Do they just sell DSCR loans, or do they have them? Not to beat a dead horse here, but find a lender that you like working with, trust, and one that does a lot of transactions similar to yours, and is willing to say the hard things (i.e. "I am not a good lender for this program, you should go to..." or "that seller carry on a residential transaction is not actually possible in the lending landscape of today" etc).

    3) Better rate, wrong program. This one is huge and pretty easy to illustrate. Conventional vs DSCR is the first that comes to mind. As investors we need to analyze things holistically not just in a vacuum. So, one of my favorite examples is this. Self Employed borrower makes good money in his/her business. They bring in, say 300k a year in revenue on the business with 200k being net profit. They have been in business for years and live in a home that they plan to live in for 5+ more years. They want to buy a rental property and are meeting with their CPA and lender to determine how much income they need to show to qualify for a conventional loan on an investment property. Lender determines they would need to show 150k in income to qualify for a 500k rental property. They live in California so their federal taxes on 150k would be about 23% ($34,500) and their state income taxes would be about ($13,950) for a total of $48,450. Let's say now that a conventional investment loan is 7% and they are taking out a $400k mortgage they will pay $2,661/month in principal and interest on a 30-year note. Now let's compare that to a DSCR loan where they pay 7.75% *screams in higher rate*. Now they are paying $2,866/month in principal and interest. That is $205/month or $2,460 a year more!! Who would do that? Well, the lender and CPA go back and look and see that client is not moving primary residence any time soon so now the CPA, lender, and client meet again to discuss income requirements. CPA knows that the business has a lot of expenses that could be written off if the borrower does not need to show as much income as before because DSCR does not look at income and the client does not need to take a large salary from the business to afford their lifestyle. So, CPA determines that actual taxable income for the year could be as low as $85,000. Now client will owe $10,200 on their federal taxes and $7,905 on the CA state income taxes for a total of $18,105. The client is saving over $30,000 on their taxes and only paying $2,460 extra in interest for the DSCR loan. This nets to a total savings of $27,885 for the client even though the rate was significantly higher. This scenario is extremely common and while I exaggerated numbers for effect, I have had this conversation with clients and their CPAs and the client is usually surprised when you put the numbers on paper. P.S. I know this, because I DO this, I have been variable/commission based for over 4 years now and I have a good real estate friendly CPA. I use DSCR products every time because of this exact analysis with my own CPA.

    Sorry for the novel, but I find myself having these conversations over and over and I hope some people can benefit from some different perspective on lending.  :)

    Good post. 
  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Joe S.:
    Quote from @Clayton Silva:

    Before people get in my DMs or up in arms about how important interest rates are please take a moment to read in its entirety to understand what I mean.

    As a mortgage broker and banker, I often hear that a client of mine is "shopping" interest rates.  (This is already a bit ironic, because my full-time job, 50+ hours and 5-6 days a week is shopping for rates and products, so I am pretty good at it).  But I get the sentiment and understand why people feel the need to do this.  I see this mostly with new and inexperienced investors which is why I wanted to write this post to help newer investors avoid some of the pitfalls I see every day.  Caveat, experienced investors rarely "shop" they usually have one or two lenders that specialize in certain products, keep all of the investor's data on file with current documents and they tend to care more about convenience, experience, and just getting the deal closed so they will continue to go to the same lender who can make that happen.  Granted that relationship likely took years and a few transactions to cultivate.

    The 3 biggest mistakes I see new investors make when "shopping":

    1) Tunnel vision on the interest rate.  As I stated above this does not matter because banks and brokers do a lot of different gimmicks to try and make their rate look better.  Example: I say that as of today your rate is 7% for an investment, but Lender 2 says he can get you 6.75%.  If you look at the rate in a vacuum, you will miss all the other charges on the Loan Estimate.  Getting a full, locked loan estimate is the only way to truly compare the two.  If the 7% has no points and the 6.75% has 1 point in cost, then you would have to go back to me and ask me what paying 1 point in cost would get you as a rate, and that number might be 6.5%.  So how do you cut through the noise to find the base rate?  *Lenders are going to be mad at me for this one* ask them what their base rate is (ask them what the par rate would be for that product if it was "borrower paid compensation").  This filters the rate down to show what their actual rate is with none of their compensation, or anything attached to it.  You will start to see the actual variations in the rate.  Also worth comparing processing and underwriting fees, and really any fees that are in Section A of the Loan Estimate. 

    2) Not understanding the value of experience and relationships. I have had clients switch lenders over $500 on fees. (Often, they end up coming back to fix the deal after they realize that you get what you pay for, yes, even in lending). While I do price competitively, I am personally not competing with the "race to the bottom" lenders that will do loans for almost free because their model is volume. I personally prefer to be more on the advising and relationship side so I can give my clients more tailored solutions, help them avoid pitfalls, connect them to people that can help them grow and structure their portfolios and I treat this industry more as a relationship business rather than a transactional business. I am an investor first and remember how frustrating lending was when I was starting out, so I try to be a coach, cheerleader, and trusted advisor for clients and these things take a lot more time and require more intangibles than just rate and costs. It is the difference between a Hilton and a motel 6. One gives you microwaved waffles and a room, the other greets you at the door has hot towels ready, tells you where the sights and sounds are and caters a multi course meal to your room. Sure, both gave you a place to stay, and the motel six had the "better rate" as far as pricing. But when you are making a large multi hundred-thousand-dollar investment, why would you want the cheapest person in your corner helping you make that decision. Would you want the cheapest accountant or the cheapest wealth advisor or the cheapest surgeon? My point that I am trying to drive home is that most lenders are within a pretty tight shot group, and I would rather pay $500 - $1000 more for better advice, better service, better follow up, better communication etc. Just like many people ask about real estate friendly CPAs or investor friendly agents, I would be looking for experienced loan officers who also "buy what they sell". Do they just sell DSCR loans, or do they have them? Not to beat a dead horse here, but find a lender that you like working with, trust, and one that does a lot of transactions similar to yours, and is willing to say the hard things (i.e. "I am not a good lender for this program, you should go to..." or "that seller carry on a residential transaction is not actually possible in the lending landscape of today" etc).

    3) Better rate, wrong program. This one is huge and pretty easy to illustrate. Conventional vs DSCR is the first that comes to mind. As investors we need to analyze things holistically not just in a vacuum. So, one of my favorite examples is this. Self Employed borrower makes good money in his/her business. They bring in, say 300k a year in revenue on the business with 200k being net profit. They have been in business for years and live in a home that they plan to live in for 5+ more years. They want to buy a rental property and are meeting with their CPA and lender to determine how much income they need to show to qualify for a conventional loan on an investment property. Lender determines they would need to show 150k in income to qualify for a 500k rental property. They live in California so their federal taxes on 150k would be about 23% ($34,500) and their state income taxes would be about ($13,950) for a total of $48,450. Let's say now that a conventional investment loan is 7% and they are taking out a $400k mortgage they will pay $2,661/month in principal and interest on a 30-year note. Now let's compare that to a DSCR loan where they pay 7.75% *screams in higher rate*. Now they are paying $2,866/month in principal and interest. That is $205/month or $2,460 a year more!! Who would do that? Well, the lender and CPA go back and look and see that client is not moving primary residence any time soon so now the CPA, lender, and client meet again to discuss income requirements. CPA knows that the business has a lot of expenses that could be written off if the borrower does not need to show as much income as before because DSCR does not look at income and the client does not need to take a large salary from the business to afford their lifestyle. So, CPA determines that actual taxable income for the year could be as low as $85,000. Now client will owe $10,200 on their federal taxes and $7,905 on the CA state income taxes for a total of $18,105. The client is saving over $30,000 on their taxes and only paying $2,460 extra in interest for the DSCR loan. This nets to a total savings of $27,885 for the client even though the rate was significantly higher. This scenario is extremely common and while I exaggerated numbers for effect, I have had this conversation with clients and their CPAs and the client is usually surprised when you put the numbers on paper. P.S. I know this, because I DO this, I have been variable/commission based for over 4 years now and I have a good real estate friendly CPA. I use DSCR products every time because of this exact analysis with my own CPA.

    Sorry for the novel, but I find myself having these conversations over and over and I hope some people can benefit from some different perspective on lending.  :)

    Good post. 

     Thank you Joe, means a lot!

  • Investor · Youngstown, OH · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    Excellent insights @Clayton Silva. I don't miss this part of being an MLO. The most exhausting part of talking rates with buyers was trying to get them to understand why it was in their best interest to buy when rates were higher and competition was lower. Getting a 6% instead of a 6.5% doesn't save you squat if you have to bid $30k over asking with an appraisal gap and then replace the roof 6 months after you buy the property because you had to waive the inspection. 

  • Member since 2022 · 35 posts · 16 votes
    2y

    Rates are part of it. I wouldn't say that they should be a major factor, but the more deals one has done, the lower rates many lenders are willing to offer. But one can often save on the actual price with more limited competition. 

  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nicole Heasley Beitenman:

    Excellent insights @Clayton Silva. I don't miss this part of being an MLO. The most exhausting part of talking rates with buyers was trying to get them to understand why it was in their best interest to buy when rates were higher and competition was lower. Getting a 6% instead of a 6.5% doesn't save you squat if you have to bid $30k over asking with an appraisal gap and then replace the roof 6 months after you buy the property because you had to waive the inspection. 


     Haha, louder for the people in the back! 

  • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Gil Wildridge:

    Rates are part of it. I wouldn't say that they should be a major factor, but the more deals one has done, the lower rates many lenders are willing to offer. But one can often save on the actual price with more limited competition. 


     Very true, and a lot of lenders, especially like fix and flip lenders have sort of a "loyalty program" where more deals equal better rates and better leverage.  It's not really true loyalty program it's actually more a way to verify their underwriting and get more and more comfortable with you as a client/customer.  

  • Member since 2023 · 30 posts · 14 votes
    2y

    @Clayton Silva I am very green to REI and lending is one of the biggest black boxes to me, so THANK YOU so much for this post and follow up comments. Wildly helpful, and I appreciate you sharing your expertise, especially the breakdown of Lender paid vs Borrower paid compensation. I also completely resonate the need to look at the value the lender provides and not just price shopping.


    1. What questions or areas of the lender:client relationship should a REI investigate when shopping for lenders to uncover the value that lender offers as compared to others?
    2. Do you lend in Colorado? :) 

    3. I would like to take you up on showing me real world pricing examples. This is a new language for me, and repetition is bound to help all of this sink in. I will DM you - thanks in advance!

    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      2y

      @Clayton Silva

      Your post has gotten a LOT of traction - because it well written and has a lot of truth to it.

      By way of example we had two local banks wanting to finance a retail/service center we had recently acquired (this was 3 years ago).  The first quoted 4.5% interest on a fully amortized 20 year fixed interest note the second quoted 4% same terms.  We went with the higher 4.5% rate BECAUSE we were able to negotiate (1) no personal guarantee and (2) one time allowable deed transfer without enforcing acceleration clause.  As a result we sold the property after 3 years with a wrap around note in which we are receiving a 10% interest rate but paying on 4.5% resulting in an annual interest rate differential “profit” to us of approximately $25,000 per year for as long as the mortgage lasts.  Hopefully it won’t be paid off and runs the full 17 years remaining. 

      The other bank didn't want to "lose" our business and told us that any property where the LTV was 50% or less wouldn't require personal guarantees in the future. We put them to the test with an office warehouse 3 building 40,000 sq ft syndication 2 years ago and they performed as they stated.

      When utilizing local lenders who keep the loan in their portfolio, you CAN negotiate on rate BUT I find it much better to pay 1/4 to 1/2 point above the absolute minimum and obtain these other advantages instead.  Knowledge wealth building investors can do wonders with the ability to sell “subject to” with approval for such stated in the deed of trust or mortgage instrument.  

      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
      2y
      Quote from @Kelsey VanSleen:

      @Clayton Silva I am very green to REI and lending is one of the biggest black boxes to me, so THANK YOU so much for this post and follow up comments. Wildly helpful, and I appreciate you sharing your expertise, especially the breakdown of Lender paid vs Borrower paid compensation. I also completely resonate the need to look at the value the lender provides and not just price shopping.


      1. What questions or areas of the lender:client relationship should a REI investigate when shopping for lenders to uncover the value that lender offers as compared to others?
      2. Do you lend in Colorado? :) 

      3. I would like to take you up on showing me real world pricing examples. This is a new language for me, and repetition is bound to help all of this sink in. I will DM you - thanks in advance!


         My pleasure! I appreciate the kind words and would love to connect

      • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
        2y
        Quote from @Don Konipol:

        @Clayton Silva

        Your post has gotten a LOT of traction - because it well written and has a lot of truth to it.

        By way of example we had two local banks wanting to finance a retail/service center we had recently acquired (this was 3 years ago).  The first quoted 4.5% interest on a fully amortized 20 year fixed interest note the second quoted 4% same terms.  We went with the higher 4.5% rate BECAUSE we were able to negotiate (1) no personal guarantee and (2) one time allowable deed transfer without enforcing acceleration clause.  As a result we sold the property after 3 years with a wrap around note in which we are receiving a 10% interest rate but paying on 4.5% resulting in an annual interest rate differential “profit” to us of approximately $25,000 per year for as long as the mortgage lasts.  Hopefully it won’t be paid off and runs the full 17 years remaining. 

        The other bank didn't want to "lose" our business and told us that any property where the LTV was 50% or less wouldn't require personal guarantees in the future. We put them to the test with an office warehouse 3 building 40,000 sq ft syndication 2 years ago and they performed as they stated.

        When utilizing local lenders who keep the loan in their portfolio, you CAN negotiate on rate BUT I find it much better to pay 1/4 to 1/2 point above the absolute minimum and obtain these other advantages instead.  Knowledge wealth building investors can do wonders with the ability to sell “subject to” with approval for such stated in the deed of trust or mortgage instrument.  


         Thank you Don, I really appreciate it and you illustrate the point beautifully. Terms are equally important and cannot be overlooked 

      • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
        2y

        The issue with this is that most deals cap rates right now are below the interest rate so lots of deals have very skinny margins (if investing for cashflow) where a higher rate erases that skinny margin. I do agree experienced investors dont shop rates hard and care more about a lender that closes. I always use same lender and refer them out to clients.

      • Lender · CA · Member since 2018 · 637 posts · 393 votes
        2y
        Quote from @Henry Lazerow:

        The issue with this is that most deals cap rates right now are below the interest rate so lots of deals have very skinny margins (if investing for cashflow) where a higher rate erases that skinny margin. I do agree experienced investors dont shop rates hard and care more about a lender that closes. I always use same lender and refer them out to clients.


         Right, so you have to get more creative on the purchase, focus on getting good deals, and have multiple back up strategies for renting.  This market is forcing a lot of investors back to fundamentals.

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