"Seasoning", 70% pp, 80% ARV, and Cash Out.

"Seasoning", 70% pp, 80% ARV, and Cash Out.

Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes

I have some questions pertaining to "seasoning" and the viability of my "buy and hold" plan.

I have researched the forums extensively, reading everything that I can find on "seasoning", especially as it relates to the new mortgage finance laws. Please clarify for me:

1. Say I buy a house for $20k (cash) and rehab for $10k (cash) and then place a tenant for $600/month. Can I go seek a conventional "refinance" for this property immediately for 70% of the purchase price ($14k)? Or do I have to wait a certain number of months to show positive cash flow (rent deposits) for that property? Or do I have to wait six months to do a 70% refinance?

2. If I am able to do the above 70% refinance immediately after placing the tenant, how long do I have to wait until I could do an 80% ARV refinance? If, one year later (after purchase/rehab) the appraisal is for $60k, what percentage cash back will the bank give me? 80% of 60k? 70% of 60k?

3. If I am able to execute any of the above scenerios, will the banks allow me to do it 10 times? (10 conventional loans being the magic number).

Again, assuming an "All In" of $30k, would it make the most sense, loan cost wise, to just carry the $30k myself for the full 12 months, and then do a cash out refi at 80% ARV?

If a person wanted to do one SFR( Purchase/Rehab/Tenant Placement) per month, could he just assume that he needed $360k (12 x 30K) to make this work, using the cash out money from the first SFR (80% of 60k= $48k), to purchase the 13th property, the cash out money from the second SFT to purchase the 14th property, etc, until at the end of 22 months, he owned 22 SFR's, with mortgages on the first ten that he purchased?

At that point, (22 SFR's and 10 conventional mortgages), should he seek a real estate portfolio loan with a local bank?

Or should he just try to get a portfolio loan after self financing the first few SFR's? Is there a "magic" dollar number at which a local bank will become interested in opening a portfolio loan for a guy? Is that number $100k? Is it higher? Is it lower?

Any guidance from the BP World would be very much appreciated...

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Investor · West Grove, PA · Member since 2013 · 74 posts · 25 votes
12y

Each lender is different.. Call every bank in the area and ask those questions. Some will only let you refi 70-75% of your cash in amount, while others will do 70-75% of the appraisal.

However it can be done.. Here is an example on one of my deals I just closed (refi) on

12/5/2013- cash purchase- 39k

Rehab 15k

Tenant moved in 2/1/2014--$1100 per month

Take lease to bank, order appraisal

Appraisal comes in at 70k

Bank lends me 52,500 at 5/20 --5.25 % on 3/20/2014

Need to go on commercial side for the lending , otherwise your going to wait 6 months for seasoning.

No limit to the amount of mortgages

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  • Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes
    12y

    The seasoning period varies by lender. If you are trying to refinance with owning the property less than one year they will most likely look at LTC (loan to cost), unless you have track record with them. Don't forgot lender will want 6-12 month reserves for all your mortgages. Your description above is very fast pace. Buying a house cash, repairing, placing a tenant, presenting it to a bank, underwriting and finally receiving the check takes me about 4 months. You can have a few deals going but to hit the 20 mortgages is takes a few years.

    10 conventional loans seems possible but is challenging. I hit 4 conventional loans and went to portfolio. Don't quote me but I'm not sure how the underwriting for cash out refinanced conventional loans work after 4 loans. Personally I like dealing with a porfolio lender. I wouldn't consider a conventional loan now unless it was for a primary residence.

    Portfolio loan $ amounts, I have a loan on a condo for 20K and has a 7 year ammortization. Most of these lenders won't have a minimum amount. These loans are easy to generate. There is not a bunch of people and processes involved like dealing with a Fannie loan. It's a very straight forward process to underwrite a loan that these banks have systems in place, so not wanting to generate small $ amont loan isn't really an issue (if you find the right banks).

  • Investor · West Grove, PA · Member since 2013 · 74 posts · 25 votes
    12y

    Each lender is different.. Call every bank in the area and ask those questions. Some will only let you refi 70-75% of your cash in amount, while others will do 70-75% of the appraisal.

    However it can be done.. Here is an example on one of my deals I just closed (refi) on

    12/5/2013- cash purchase- 39k

    Rehab 15k

    Tenant moved in 2/1/2014--$1100 per month

    Take lease to bank, order appraisal

    Appraisal comes in at 70k

    Bank lends me 52,500 at 5/20 --5.25 % on 3/20/2014

    Need to go on commercial side for the lending , otherwise your going to wait 6 months for seasoning.

    No limit to the amount of mortgages

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    We have federal and state (cali) bank examiners here on BP, what has been put out about banks is not totally correct.

    DL, I stopped reading half way through as you continued on making an assumption.

    Loan seasoning has to do with the market value, plus hard costs of improvements within a market term. Most folks here can't define "market value", but if the definition is met as to market exposure, time on market, no seller concessions, etc. what you paid for a property IS the market value, there is no guru junk of buying under market value. But there are distressed sales. Your MV is relative over a period of time as markets change.

    You can increase values by making improvements.

    All banks have federal and state restrictions, there is no finding a bank that doesn't have to follow adopted written loan requirements or prudent lending practices.

    Small loans have nothing to do with the amount so much as the cost of servicing the loan over the term. Servicing costs are based on amounts and generally run about a quarter or three eights of a point, they may be higher. The interest rate must be high enough to turn the required yield and cover costs of messing with it. If a minimum loan is 50K, as set, they may be saying that servicing runs about $250 a year per loan. If the loan were 25K, it would cost one point. Now you have another issue, the targeted yield to be earned, they either have to charge more or yield less. Are there any usury laws that are applicable, some states have usury laws on residential properties regardless of it being owner occupied or not.

    They also have collateral issues with "junk houses" frankly, banks can take a bath from foreclosures on some 20K house, who would buy it? Answer...it won't be a retail buyer getting an 80 or 90% loan, it will be to a cash buying investor who will do their best to buy it at 12K! Saying that minimum loan amounts also reflect loan losses, cheaper properties have higher costs to secure and sell than can be regained. Costs vs amounts at risk.

    Back to seasoning, to establish a new market value you really need a new market cycle, time has to pass to justify not calling your purchase price the true market value. As I mentioned, improvements may significantly influence market value. Buy a 25K property, put 40K in it, you may hit a different pricing level and market area, it could be worth 80K. In such an instance the appraiser will need to explain the market and assess value with both being addressed along with the cost of improvements. Then, a bank may consider the refi under new conditions. Without significant changes, having only some repairs and lipstick, you'll probably be stuck within your original market conditions.

    Another issue is your local market, if you're in a small rural town where most inventory is lower priced homes, in order for the bank to meet public benefit requirements, they will need to lend on that inventory. Market cycles can be very slow in such areas, prices may not significantly change in years, much less months. This too influences seasoning required.

    From an accounting and book value point of view an asset is valued at cost or market, which ever is less within 12 months, after 12 months it moves to its market value. This is with any non-liquid asset not just real estate. There you'll find the seasoning requirements adopted by banks. If there are active markets and changes to a property a bank may consider 6 months, but they really need to justify that thinking too

    Banks sell the use of money, that is their product. They are in sales as much as any other business. They will blow smoke up the tail of a decent borrower who will come in and do more business, making them think they are really special customers. Sometimes small concessions are made or, the bank may even lead a customer they are doing something special for them simply from a marketing aspect. There are compensating factors, if a deal makes sense and doesn't violate law or regulation a board may approve a certain loan or a lending arrangement with a customer.

    So, it is not realistic starting off to say you won't be under a more standardized seasoning requirement. After ten years and a few hundred deals, a bank may look at you differently, but even after years of having a banking relationship in larger markets you'll need to be a very big fish in that pond for exceptions. Regulators don't like special treatment, banking is about serving the public and community not special pockets of a local economy.

    I suggest you set your business plan along conventional lines of thought in compliance with the norm, not exceptions to the norm. That may mean avoiding cheap properties in favor of more bankable properties. It really depends on your area and market. But, you can't go by claims other investors make as to what they do or how great of a customer they are. Banks are much like other financial industry sales, everyone is the best customer until you need something out of the norm or when you have a claim or when your broker calls about you loans against the box of your portfolio falling short. There are no special borrowers, we all have different levels of advantages but no one commands what ever they want. :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes
    12y

    @Franklin Romine Thanks for the reply. It sounds like I should just save the "Conventional Loan Bullets" for 4 plex's, and not even mess with SFR conventional mortgages.

    @Dave Shellenberger

    Dave, Wow. Thanks for the info. Especially the recent "real world" example.

    I guess I will switch my forum searches from "seasoning" and "cash out refi" to "portfolio loans."

    As an outsider looking in, it seems that the conventional lending route is a complete waste of time/effort except for those who are intent on getting the stability of a fixed 30 year rate.

    Is that a safe assumption?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @DL Martin:

    I guess I will switch my forum searches from "seasoning" and "cash out refi" to "portfolio loans."

    As an outsider looking in, it seems that the conventional lending route is a complete waste of time/effort except for those who are intent on getting the stability of a fixed 30 year rate.

    Is that a safe assumption?

    LOL, guess you missed one, you were probably typing. Yes, portfolio lending is probably where you need to look, but understand conventional as well. Good luck :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. That should be required reading for people like me.

    I'm not trying to "game the system" or anything, I just want to make my money go as far as possible with regard to down payments. It just seemed that, working within conventional loan parameters, that if a person just bought and held at $30k per SFR, and waited out the twelve month seasoning, then after twelve months he could recapture70% of his $20k purchase price, which would free up some money to keep buying. As it turns out, its just not worth it when there are other avenues available (portfolio loans).

    About six months ago, when I originally decided to get into RE full time, I just assumed that I would take my cash and use it to put down 25% on the biggest apartment complex that I could afford. In effect, buy myself a property management job. To that end, I talked to a regional bank in Cincinnati who ran my numbers and preliminarily told me that I could expect a five year ARM at 4.25 with a 30 year amortization. He also told me that at the end of the five year term, the rate would reset to an index which would actually drop the rate quite a bit (given current conditions) and that the bank would not call the loan, but would instead just continue to service the loan at that new (lower) rate.

    I will call him back this week and see how my change in strategy (buying junk SFR's and junk small apartment complex's) would affect those terms.

    Thanks again, Bill, for your detailed response. I know that it took awhile to put all that down "on paper." : )

    DL

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