Committing Mortgage Fraud via Househacking Strategy

Committing Mortgage Fraud via Househacking Strategy

Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 43 posts · 12 votes

Hey BP,

I'll try to keep a long story short.  Currently about to purchase a 4BR 2.5 bath single family that I rent in Pittsburgh and turn my 3 roommates into tenants.  The advantage of this is that it will continue to be my primary residence, however, I will be able to have them pay the mortgage and I will be able to get conventional owner occupancy financing for the deal...or so you would think.

In a recent conversation with my mortgage broker, this came up.  Despite already being pre-approved and almost having a deal in place, we decided to throw out some "what ifs" around.  According to him, you cannot, under any circumstance, collect rent (income) from you primary residence.  I was sure to dig deeper and ask how this would apply to multi-families etc etc, however, he proceeded to tell me if the borrower knew this was his/her intent from the onset that this be disclosed and therefore down payments would need to be of at least 15% because this would be deemed as an "investment".  He went on to explain that this and another situation like say, buying the house today as owner occupied and turning it into a full rental in 3 months would constitute mortgage fraud because of the advantage one could get as it relates to the acquisition of the loan.

I have an extremely hard time believing this considering "house hacking" is such a common strategy across the board.  Could it be that this is lender specific?  For instance, this conversation took place with Quicken.  I'd like to stay away from the big lenders altogether but I've had a great interaction thus far and am being given super competitive rates compared to the smaller, local lenders.

That said, I'm looking for a little guidance and/or perspective as to whether or not this may be an issue for me down the road.  My full intent for this property is to buy it today, live in it and have my 3 roommates pay me rent and then in 2 years move out all together and it to continue as a rental for many years to come. 

Thanks,

Cam

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Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2012 · 19 posts · 18 votes
9y

I believe that this mortgage broker is incorrect.

You need to move in within 60 days of closing and occupy the property as your primary residence for at least 1 year.

You are allowed to have roommates, family, tenants in your primary residence so long as you are still living there for 1 year. It's really none of their business what you do so long as you are fulfilling the obligations that you agree to when you close the loan (move in within 60 days, live there 1 year). I wouldn't even mention it.

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  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2014 · 351 posts · 220 votes
    9y

    Might sound stupid, but how in the heck can the bank, regulators, or big brother...... :) know what your intent was or is.  Occupancy and these type of issues are what will kill the mortgage/realtor industry.

    To much time being spent on compliance, I'm a simple guy.  My choice has been to focus on simplicity, and a small monthly income.

    Just a few 4 plexes or maybe two 10 unit buildings and pow your level of compliance reduces a little.  Just an idea from a Southern California investor that sees the way we used to do things dissappearing.

    Jim

  • Virtual Assistant · Hollywood, FL · Member since 2016 · 60 posts · 11 votes
    9y

    Really good thread. Looking to owner occupy / House hack now. Insight like this helps educate and prevent costly errors. 

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Does the same "Live in the residence at least for a year then you can rent it out " apply for secondary homes?

  • Mesa, AZ · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Hi Cameron,

    Interested to find out how this worked out for you. I am in a similar situation with Quicken Loans. I'm looking to buy a 2 bedroom townhouse as my primary residence, with my parents renting out the 2nd bedroom. The snag for me is that my job keeps me on the road 95% of the year so most of the time it will just be my parents physically in the residence. The Quicken broker is trying to make it a 20% down investment mortgage because he says that on paper it will look like I am not a primary resident. This despite the fact that it will be my name on everything, all utilities in my name, the address will be my permanent address for tax purposes and all my possessions will be there. And when I do have time off - that is where I will go "home". I'm hoping to get him to reconsider and allow me to borrow under a 5-10% down owner occupied mortgage, otherwise I'm going to have to pass on the deal or start over with a new lender. Would be most appreciative of any advice you or anyone else on this thread might have!

    Shawn

  • Paul DefnginPro Member
    Lender · Rockville, MD · Member since 2008 · 498 posts · 199 votes
    9y
    Cameron Crossley -run Forest! Run! Change lenders now. That guy is giving you terrible advice.
  • Johnson City, TN · Member since 2014 · 586 posts · 705 votes
    9y

    Shawn, also make sure all of your mattresses still have the tags attached. Never tell people more than they must know. You are fine.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shawn Pennington:

    Hi Cameron,

    Interested to find out how this worked out for you. I am in a similar situation with Quicken Loans. I'm looking to buy a 2 bedroom townhouse as my primary residence, with my parents renting out the 2nd bedroom. The snag for me is that my job keeps me on the road 95% of the year so most of the time it will just be my parents physically in the residence. The Quicken broker is trying to make it a 20% down investment mortgage because he says that on paper it will look like I am not a primary resident. This despite the fact that it will be my name on everything, all utilities in my name, the address will be my permanent address for tax purposes and all my possessions will be there. And when I do have time off - that is where I will go "home". I'm hoping to get him to reconsider and allow me to borrow under a 5-10% down owner occupied mortgage, otherwise I'm going to have to pass on the deal or start over with a new lender. Would be most appreciative of any advice you or anyone else on this thread might have!

    Shawn

     You guys gotta stop going to assembly line lenders with non-vanilla non-assembly-line scenarios, that's the bottom line here. Honestly there is a time and a place for the assembly line mortgage places, but if you're on biggerpockets.com and reading about all the cool strategies and whatnot, that alone says that it's unlikely that it is applicable to you. 

    Case in point, Shawn you are providing housing for your parents who presumably cannot qualify for a mortgage in that amount on their own. 95% LTV, owner occupant interest rate, no need to even call it your primary residence, no need for you to owner occupy for a year provided your parents do, 30YF, nothing funny. But that's not available from an assembly line.

  • Mesa, AZ · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Chris Mason - Yeah that seems to be the main lesson learned here. Thanks all!

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shawn Pennington:

    @Chris Mason - Yeah that seems to be the main lesson learned here. Thanks all!

     I went back and edited my post while you were typing, take a look. :)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    What a bunch of crap. If you're buying this with the intent if living there that's all that matters. Why the hell would a lender care if you rent out a few rooms for extra money. Hell, it helps make sure their borrower can continue to pay. The fact this even came up shows how ridiculous our lending has become.
  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Cody L.:

    The fact this even came up shows how ridiculous our lending has become.

     I will not for a second disagree with the claim that the mortgage industry has taken a 180 degree turn from 2007 and now, 10 years on, is exactly as stupid as in 2007, but on the other extreme a decade later in 2017.

    However, the examples in this thread aren't that. The examples in this thread boil down to over-zealous attempts to automate mortgage lending by allocating resources for mass marketing and flowcharts instead of people. These are pretty clearly examples of someone technically licensed, that is just sitting in a cubicle and reading from a script with a flowchart. 

    And when you ask such a person a question that isn't explicitly on their script with a flowchart, it just flows to "is the borrower asking a question not otherwise on this flowchart? If yes, tell them it's mortgage fraud and they can't do that" on said flowchart. 

    Every single example so far highlighted in this thread is a scenario that vanilla Fannie/Freddie will go for in spite of how restrictive lending is in 2017, but you can't condense thousands of pages of guidelines into a flowchart, so you see the results we are seeing here: perfectly conforming, legal, acceptable, things, where the cubicle dweller with a flowchart can't understand it because it's not on their flowchart, so they just throw their hands up, call it mortgage fraud, and refuse to do anything else. 

  • Mesa, AZ · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Chris Mason Interesting and good to know. Thanks for taking the time to respond! I've drawn a line in the sand with them and now waiting a response, but I might reach out to you at your office to discuss at some point if that's ok. 

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 43 posts · 12 votes
    9y
    Hey Guys, Sorry for the delay in response - the short answer is, this never materialized to be an issue. I had several additional conversations with this same broker from Quicken and once I was more clear, asked to see documentation, etc there was no problem. He did ask a few "feeler questions" about my intent early in the application process and the misunderstanding between the two of us was most likely my fault, as I believe I gave him some indication that I may move out within a month or two. I closed on the property on 01/31/17 and have been happily "house hacking" every since. Last thought, a lot of good insight in this thread and I would take your time, ask the proper questions and be clear with your intentions. Also, I've been very pleased with Cozy.co for my automated payments from my tenants. Cam
  • Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 107 posts · 25 votes
    9y

    @Shawn Pennington, if your parents are living there Fannie considers you an owner-occupant even if you don't actually live there at all. There's a special provision for purchasing a home for your parents. https://www.fanniemae.com/content/guide/selling/b2/1/01.html

    I use assembly-line lenders sometimes (prefer locals for purchases, assembly-line for refis), but I find I often have to explain the mortgage rules to them. Usually I can convince them I'm right, but it takes a bit more doing.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Cameron C.,

    Glad you got it worked out.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Will Johnston:

    @Shawn Pennington, if your parents are living there Fannie considers you an owner-occupant even if you don't actually live there at all. There's a special provision for purchasing a home for your parents. https://www.fanniemae.com/content/guide/selling/b2/1/01.html

    I use assembly-line lenders sometimes (prefer locals for purchases, assembly-line for refis), but I find I often have to explain the mortgage rules to them. Usually I can convince them I'm right, but it takes a bit more doing.

    You've never had the strategy of teaching the mortgage professionals how to do mortgage stuff blow up in your face? I mean, you more or less know when you do that, that it's their first time applying that guideline. Specific to this example, I've seen someone try and count rental income from an SFR being purchased as an owner occupant...

  • Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 107 posts · 25 votes
    9y

    @Chris Mason, I don't think I've ever had it blow up in my face.  Like I said, I prefer a good local lender for purchases because they tend to be able to get things done that someone who's just churning out mortgages often cannot.  But when I'm just doing a refi, I prefer to spend less money, so I'll go with whoever is cheapest.  And since it's just a refi there's really not much "blowing up." It just might take longer to get the loan done, but I'm not running up against a contract deadline.

    Either way, I'd prefer to work with people who are willing to learn. I certainly don't know everything about my day job, even though I've been doing it for years and some would call me an "expert." And I've gotten some of my best ideas from folks who aren't professionals in my industry.

    I've got a phenomenal lender in DC. He knows his stuff backwards and forwards, and I have a lot of respect for him.  But he's still willing to listen to my ideas on how to make something work. Usually he's already thought of it, but every now and again I come up with a creative solution he hadn't thought of.

  • Mesa, AZ · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Will Johnston That's incredibly helpful info as it applies exactly to my situation. Thanks for sharing! Glad I posted on this thread - you guys are great! I feel much better prepared to deal with the assembly-line guy. I'll likely end up ditching him unless I can get the terms I want out of him. 

  • Mesa, AZ · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Cameron C. - Glad to hear your situation worked out! Thanks for starting the thread. 

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Will Johnston:

    @Chris Mason, I don't think I've ever had it blow up in my face.  Like I said, I prefer a good local lender for purchases because they tend to be able to get things done that someone who's just churning out mortgages often cannot.  But when I'm just doing a refi, I prefer to spend less money, so I'll go with whoever is cheapest.  And since it's just a refi there's really not much "blowing up." It just might take longer to get the loan done, but I'm not running up against a contract deadline.

    Either way, I'd prefer to work with people who are willing to learn. I certainly don't know everything about my day job, even though I've been doing it for years and some would call me an "expert." And I've gotten some of my best ideas from folks who aren't professionals in my industry.

    I've got a phenomenal lender in DC. He knows his stuff backwards and forwards, and I have a lot of respect for him.  But he's still willing to listen to my ideas on how to make something work. Usually he's already thought of it, but every now and again I come up with a creative solution he hadn't thought of.

    Good stuff. I actually had a borrower make up a loan program I hadn't thought of last week. Owner occupant 7.5% down one-time PMI buy-out, made up by an REI buying a primary residence mashing together 10% down w/ monthly PMI and 5% down one-time PMI buy-out to get the best of both. It's an obvious mash-up when you write it out, but for whatever reason I hadn't thought of that before! (I'm sure someone, somewhere, has done it like this, I'd just never happened across it)

    Cash to close comparable to 10% down, monthly payment $215 less. A little more in debt obviously, but they don't ever plan to sell, so monthly payment trumps loan balance. Why, yes, thank you Mr. REI borrower, I will certainly be presenting that option to others in the future!

  • Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 107 posts · 25 votes
    9y

    @Chris Mason, nice! That's a really interesting solution.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 275 posts · 271 votes
    9y

    @Cameron C.

    Why not just reach out to an attorney that has done a lot of these mortgage fraud type of cases and get a letter of opinion. Just write a letter to your state department  of mortage and real estate and they have a opinions they can issue. 

    I think it's good to be careful but it seems like you are giving too much info to your loan officer. When you buy you are buying with the intent of living there. As long as you live there and meet that requirement then I personally don't see anything wrong. A good attorney will be able to look up cases for you that may be similar. 

    Personally in my opinion if someone does this and lets say has 5 homes. All five for some reason go in default. Then someone can look at it and say that is a pattern to commit fraud. Can't hurt to get a legal opinion but I don't see an issue. 

    At least you one or 2 is not an issue at all as far as I am concerned. 

    Pay your tax do things correctly which from what have written seems to be your plan anyways. 

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y

    @Cameron C.

    This is interesting.  Technically your house won't be vacant at closing since you and your buddies live there.

    Your lender doesn't care?

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Chris Purcell:

    @Cameron C.

    This is interesting.  Technically your house won't be vacant at closing since you and your buddies live there.

    Your lender doesn't care?

    Chris, you should've used past tense, because it's ALREADY closed (see above)!

    My question to you is: why SHOULD the Lender care that Cameron bought the home where he was already residing? I can't think of any reason (and obviously, neither could the Lender)!...

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
    Originally posted by @Chris Purcell:

    @Cameron C.

    This is interesting.  Technically your house won't be vacant at closing since you and your buddies live there.

    Your lender doesn't care?

    Chris, you should've used past tense, because it's ALREADY closed (see above)!

    My question to you is: why SHOULD the Lender care that Cameron bought the home where he was already residing? I can't think of any reason (and obviously, neither could the Lender)!...

     Tenants buy homes from their landlords all the time. 

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