Is it considered mortgage fraud if you manipulate income?

Is it considered mortgage fraud if you manipulate income?

Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes

Let's say there's an unmarried couple with kids. Boyfriend has a business and is considered self employed, but he can't get a mortgage because he doesn't have two years of self employment income. So, he "hires" his girlfriend to "work" at his business, but she really doesn't so much if anything, he just gives her a paycheck. However, at first, the purpose of this paycheck wasn't to get a mortgage, hence, her paycheck is only like $1000. BUT, now they want to get a house, specifically a 2-4 unit owner occupied with FHA loan. So what the boyfriend does is he will take money out of his savings account and increase the girlfriend's income for just a month or two so she can qualify for a bigger loan, so that her paystub shows that she makes a lot. And then after she closes on the loan, he will reduce her income back to the 1000. Now, girlfriend has been going to college full time for the last two years, so it's not like mortgage brokers will care about two years of income, because she can substitute that with her full time college transcripts.

Would this scenario be considered mortgage fraud, where the boyfriend specifically increases girlfriend's income (even takes money out of his savings account to do so) for just a month or two so she could qualify for a bigger mortgage loan?

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y

what do you think.. ???

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    what do you think.. ???

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    what do you think.. ???

     I don't know, that's why I'm asking. How can the boyfriend and girlfriend make sure that they're not committing fraud but still get a mortage? Should the boyfriend pay the girlfriend the same salary for 6 months? A year? How long should the boyfriend pay that same (higher) salary to the girlfriend so that it is not considered mortgage fraud? 

  • Investor · Grand Junction, CO · Member since 2017 · 207 posts · 201 votes
    8y

    Anytime you have to ask "Is this mortgage fraud?"  it probably is.  Let me ask this, would you give this much detail to your loan officer/originator?  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    in the day these were basically called Liar loans.

    now a days the mortgage broker can literally end up in Jail participating in these schemes.  if your mortgage broker lays out a plan that he or she can agree with.. then your probably OK I am not any kind of expert on owner occ loans.. but I do know of a few RMLOs in OREGON that ended up in Sheridan for these acts.. ( Sheridan is state prison)

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    in the day these were basically called Liar loans.

    now a days the mortgage broker can literally end up in Jail participating in these schemes.  if your mortgage broker lays out a plan that he or she can agree with.. then your probably OK I am not any kind of expert on owner occ loans.. but I do know of a few RMLOs in OREGON that ended up in Sheridan for these acts.. ( Sheridan is state prison)

     I looked up the definition of liar loans, and it looks like people actually lied on their income and didn't have proof of income. I'm talking about having proof of income for just a month or two. Would the girlfriend have to reveal the fact that she works for her boyfriend and that she doesn't plan to "earn" this much income later on? 

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    To me this example demonstrates some silliness of mortgage rules that won't count SE income but will allow any employer paid income.

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric James:

    To me this example demonstrates some silliness of mortgage rules that won't count SE income but will allow any employer paid income.

     Exactly. The boyfriend makes plenty of money and would love it if he could qualify for a mortgage on his own, but unfortunately, he can't, because he doesn't have two years of self-employment history. Would it be fraud to do this workaround? 

  • Real Estate Agent · Hamilton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 464 posts · 311 votes
    8y

    I'm not trying to be rude here but 2 things about your post... 

    1. The definition of Fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.  You posted on the internet (a public place) the intent to commit fraud so it now makes it that much easier to be caught.

    2. You're trying to justify the situation with people who responded to your post explaining how their opinion of it being fraud is wrong.  Either take what they say or don't that's your call but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to change their minds...

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Christopher Giannino:

    I'm not trying to be rude here but 2 things about your post... 

    1. The definition of Fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.  

    What exactly is the deceit here? If they lie about the BF being the employer that would be deceit/fraud. If not, they dont seem to be doing anything illegal. If the bank wouldn't want this to count as income there should be some qualifying criteria that disallows this.

  • Real Estate Broker · MA · Member since 2013 · 361 posts · 297 votes
    8y

    The deceit is boosting the paycheck with the intent of manufacturing pay stubs to induce the bank to make a loan that it wouldn't otherwise do. Neither OP nor her boyfriend qualify for the loan given the actual situation.

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Phil G.:

    The deceit is boosting the paycheck with the intent of manufacturing pay stubs to induce the bank to make a loan that it wouldn't otherwise do. Neither OP nor her boyfriend qualify for the loan given the actual situation.

     I am not saying that this situation is about me. However, what would need to be done so that the girlfriend qualifies for the loan without it being fraud? As I was asking before, is there a certain time period that the boyfriend has to pay her the higher income so that it wouldn't be considered fraud? 

  • Real Estate Broker · MA · Member since 2013 · 361 posts · 297 votes
    8y

    It's not really the length of time.  It's that it is a contrivance intended to defraud.  Whether they do a convincing enough job to avoid detection or question of impropriety or the ability to mount a good defense in the case of a prosecution is a different question.  The question originally asked, was whether it was fraud.

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Phil G.:

    It's not really the length of time.  It's that it is a contrivance intended to defraud.  Whether they do a convincing enough job to avoid detection or question of impropriety or the ability to mount a good defense in the case of a prosecution is a different question.  The question originally asked, was whether it was fraud.

     I guess the real question is, is this illegal to do? And if so, how should the girlfriend obtain financing so that it is legal?

  • Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Phil G.:

    The deceit is boosting the paycheck with the intent of manufacturing pay stubs to induce the bank to make a loan that it wouldn't otherwise do. Neither OP nor her boyfriend qualify for the loan given the actual situation.

    Last year I took a new job with the intent of boosting my income with the intent of manufacturing pay stubs to induce a bank to make a loan it otherwise wouldn't have. That could  pretty much describe every job I have ever taken.

  • Rental Property Investor · Edison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 753 posts · 565 votes
    8y
    I think the boyfriend needs to just stick out his job for two years if he wants a mortgage. He could continue renting with his girlfriend and putting away money for his or their future house so that he can be ready to buy when he can qualify and pay off any debts he may have. Unless he is going to marry her it will be harder to untangle things if they break up and share a deed to a house and a mortgage. If the couple does not want to commit to spending their lives together it is not a good idea to get into a house together. Also if they both work for the same company it is going to be obvious that she is an employee of the boyfriend’s company. The mortgage company will even want to call the owner (boyfriend) of the company to verify her employment. I do not see how this can be overcome now.
  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Amy Beth:

    I think the boyfriend needs to just stick out his job for two years if he wants a mortgage. He could continue renting with his girlfriend and putting away money for his or their future house so that he can be ready to buy when he can qualify and pay off any debts he may have.

    Unless he is going to marry her it will be harder to untangle things if they break up and share a deed to a house and a mortgage. If the couple does not want to commit to spending their lives together it is not a good idea to get into a house together.

    Also if they both work for the same company it is going to be obvious that she is an employee of the boyfriend’s company. The mortgage company will even want to call the owner (boyfriend) of the company to verify her employment. I do not see how this can be overcome now.

     Boyfriend's name will not be on the mortgage or the house. 

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    8y

    No matter what answer you get here, it appears you only want to hear one answer. So my suggestion to you is to tell your friend and his girlfriend to go ask the lender if it is ok to do that. If the lender says yes, great, then they can proceed. I’m willing to state that I highly doubt they will get that answer.

  • Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    .....and this is how we got to 2008.

    Remind me again....what happened in the Real Estate industry that year and the many thereafter?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:

    .....and this is how we got to 2008.

    Remind me again....what happened in the Real Estate industry that year and the many thereafter?

    started well before 08  it just blew up in everyones face about that time.. like I said I personally know 2 RMLOs that got 5 years in the big house for manipulating loan apps..  

  • Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:

    .....and this is how we got to 2008.

    Remind me again....what happened in the Real Estate industry that year and the many thereafter?

    started well before 08  it just blew up in everyones face about that time.. like I said I personally know 2 RMLOs that got 5 years in the big house for manipulating loan apps..  

     Why even go down that road?!  It is such a slippery slope.

    There are so many different legit options to explore.  None of the other options are worth jail time.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:

    .....and this is how we got to 2008.

    Remind me again....what happened in the Real Estate industry that year and the many thereafter?

    started well before 08  it just blew up in everyones face about that time.. like I said I personally know 2 RMLOs that got 5 years in the big house for manipulating loan apps..  

     Why even go down that road?!  It is such a slippery slope.

    There are so many different legit options to explore.  None of the other options are worth jail time.

    tell me about it saw many a person crumble over the years when they don't want to do bizz straight up.

    or don't want to change lifestyles when the need arises...

    common theme..

    Or like Morris.. American Greed at its finest.

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:

    .....and this is how we got to 2008.

    Remind me again....what happened in the Real Estate industry that year and the many thereafter?

    started well before 08  it just blew up in everyones face about that time.. like I said I personally know 2 RMLOs that got 5 years in the big house for manipulating loan apps..  

     Why even go down that road?!  It is such a slippery slope.

    There are so many different legit options to explore.  None of the other options are worth jail time.

     There aren't any other legit options to buy a multifamily with low downpayment and less than 2 years of self employment history. Hard money lenders require 30% down. 

  • Investor · Ashland, OR · Member since 2018 · 202 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    Also, what about people who plan to quit a job after they close on a mortgage? Are they committing fraud? 

  • Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Then you have answered your own question @Ellie Narie

    Not only do you need a 2 year history of self employment, but the lender will take the last 2 years of income based on your tax statements.  So, if you are taking a boat load of deductions, and your taxes reflect a small profit (if any at all), you will have issues qualifying.  There are some things that a lender can "add back in" to calculate your income, but most of the expenses can't be.

    So, if year 1 is a flop, and year 2 is a decent year, be prepared to be qualified on the average of the two years.

  • Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ellie Narie:

    Also, what about people who plan to quit a job after they close on a mortgage? Are they committing fraud? 

     They could be.  It all comes down to intent.  IF a Buyer obtains a loan using income from a job that they know they won't be keeping shortly after closing, then yes, I think they could have issues there.  Sometimes it's hard to prove intent.  Someone could legitimately lose their job or quit shortly after closing on a loan when they had absolutely NO intent of doing so at the time they obtained the loan.  So, in that circumstance, even though the first example is clearly fraud, it would be harder for a lender to prove ill intent.

    However, your situation is much easier to prove.  Your BF is manufacturing income for you.  That is not legit, and will not hold up under scrutiny or audit.

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