Private Lending for Buy & Hold

Private Lending for Buy & Hold

Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes

I was interested to hear what others might be doing in securing non-bank financing. We all have a circle of potential lenders/acquaintances that we could tap, without the hassle (or outright impossibility) of dealing with banks.

What approach has worked for you, and what terms. I was thinking generally (and hypothetically) along these lines:

* Deal with folks where we have pre-existing relationships
* 10yr fixed rate - pay around 7.25% fixed for 10 years (this would be set at loan origination around the 10yr tsy plus 5.0%, or possibly the 30yr avg fixed rate + 2.5-3.0%); interest only ideally, or possibly 30-year amort
* Right by borrower to substitute collateral to maintain the LTV (if we want to sell a property)
* 1st mtg, 75% LTV on new appraisal value
* One investor per property, in 1st lien position
* Property rehabbed, seasoned for at least 90 days with tenant in place with term lease

How have you addressed lender concerns around investment safety and illiquidity?

Do you discuss that there is a market for buying/selling seasoned notes? Do you make any other hard/soft assurances for getting some or all of their funds back to them early? Penalties?

Seems it would be good to always have a waiting list or pipeline to provide potential liquidity to your current investors.

Obviously comparisons to equity market volatility and low bond/CD yields are your chief selling point, and are compelling.

Very simple really. Buy/rehab/lease properties at 25-35% gross returns, season for 90 days, re-appraise, seek 75% private financing, which should typically recover all of your initial investment. One investor per property.

What approaches have worked for you for different categories of lenders? Early retirees (65-75), high earning pre-retirees (55-65), middle age accumulators (45-55), groups where safety and liquidity have varying degrees of importance.

Thanks.

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Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
14y
Originally posted by David Beard:

OK, even if you never considered it before, if you think this could have value growing your rental business, how would you approach it?

Aside from all the obvious issues Bill has so accurately pointed out, raising medium term capital without the help of a licensed securities dealer is VERY difficult. It is the holy grail for RE investors.

I can only share my limited experience with debt partners.

In my experience, you might find it difficult to attract any medium term debt partners at 7.5% as others have said. Most people you run into are leery about real estate either having been stung by bad deals themselves or through someone they know. Security means very little these days as the headlines are dominated by banks losing money because of foreclosures and the talk about a deed of trust will go over their heads. Hence, your pitch will need to focus on safety through long-term cash flow and you will undoubtedly need to create a high level of trust and hold their hands through the entire process.

1) I have had luck with doing I/O payments in order increase cash flows. These interest only payments can easily be illustrated to the laymen. Example, You loan me Y and I pay you X for 5 years and on the 60th month I repay you Y + X. Additionally, I have been able to defer payment and interest for up to 3 months while I rehab and rent. That way, I can offer a higher interest rate on their money while maximizing cash flows and reducing risk.

2) Since your looking for medium term capital, you might consider offering points. You might find it more useful since you require a medium term. Although I prefer to offer points to be paid upon refinance (back-end) as an incentive for the debt partner to not jump ship, you might find it a useful tool to incentivize your partners to hang in there for the full-term.

3) Offer some sort of equity offering. For instance, incentivize the debt partner to stay in full-term by offering to sell them a minority equity stake in the LCC holding the property.

4) Form a private placement and get it registered with the proper authorities. This will likely cost you $20K or more in start-up fees, but then you could utilize financial planners to market to accredited investors. With that, you should have better luck with the 7.5%, but when you consider commissions to the security brokers, start-up costs, and other marketing and accounting expenses, your likely going to pay an extra point or two anyway.

All of the above are merely based on my own experiences with investors who are known to me and who are accredited. Obviously, what works for me may not work for you and you should ALWAYS consult with legal counsel as part of your due diligence. Some of what has been discussed may violate securities laws and I am not an attorney or an expert in said law.

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  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    David -

    A couple of quick thoughts and notes on what has worked for us.

    1. If the lender is worried about liquidity then they are automatically disqualified as a long-term lender. I would move them to a short term, more like hard money type program.

    2. The lender is always protected multiple ways. With 1st position lien, with an insurance policy at full replacement value (usually 1.6-1.8% of loan amount), and by a signed executable quit claim deed should the borrower fall 30 days behind payment. Their is a fourth protection and that is our agreement that we can repurchase any property should it go into default.

    3. We are willing to make that agreement because we would never ask a lender to fund 100% of an investors purchase price. Our lenders will lend between 50% and 70% of purchase and rehab costs. The borrower has to have skin in the game.

    I don't think you will have much success asking lenders to lend on appraised value and essentially allow buyers to purchase no money out of pocket. I also don;t think you want to deal with investors who are solely attracted to 'no-money out of pocket' deals. If you have buyers who have the funds to purchase but are looking for some leverage, then you should be able to set up a similar program that is good for everyone.

    Suggestion:

    - 30% down on purchase/renovation costs (minimum)
    - 8.5 - 9.5% interest rate
    - 15 year am

    This would be a great deal for an investor who cannot qualify with a bank - a great deal for a long-term lender looking for a lace to safely park capital - and a great program for you to market to your client base looking to purchase properties from you.

    Just my suggestions based on what we have had success with.

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    14y

    I would agree with Chris' comments. If liquidity is ever an issue, they can not be a long term lender for you, move them to short term money deals.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Thanks Chris, for the thoughtful and informative reply. I have an enormous amount of respect for you and your company (and no affiliation!)

    On your points:

    1. It seems that all investors are at least somewhat concerned about liquidity (unforeseen events can crop up), even though it's not their foremost concern. Those where it is the foremost concern should not be considered, I agree. For others, it would seem helpful to talk to being tied into a network of note brokers, having a sizable group of other active lenders, etc., though with no assurance of course that they'll recapture their investment at par.

    2. Great points about security.

    3. On LTV, I certainly understand where you're coming from, but I'm thinking of the scenario where we are looking for financing on seasoned, performing properties (let's say rehabbed, leased, and tenant paying for 90 days). Typically you are forcing alot of appreciation into the property through the process of buying distressed and rehabbing. It seems reasonable, after appropriate seasoning, to tie value to the new appraised value, and not the purchase/rehab costs. Banks are willing to do it this way, and for much lower spreads. Perhaps 65% of new appraised value, rather than 75%, would be in order. Again, not looking for purchase/rehab financing, just back-end financing of seasoned properties in a pipeline approach.

    The terms you mention seem incredibly attractive to the lender on a well-secured investment, and are too close to the net cap rate of the property for my comfort. I have thought about also offering a loan similar to what a bank would offer for its portfolio: fixed for 5 years, then floating for 5 years, but wasn't sure if this would seem confusing to a typical individual lender.

    Also, I expect in a few years that bank financing will be easier, and we'd have access to bank financing if needed.

    Appreciate your input!

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  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by David Beard:

    How have you addressed lender concerns around investment safety and illiquidity?

    We had this very question from a prospective fund investor this evening. Investors purchase equity in our case, but the answer could be common for your setup. Here are the options:

    1. You take them out of the loan with cash if it is available to bridge the gap to the new debt

    2. You "dutch auction" their loan to your pool and give them the opportunity to shop the debt on their own. The highest bid wins

    In general I think you are asking for trouble with 10-year money. 5-year money would be much better and align with what portfolio lenders do. In theory you could offer less interest to the shorter term to account for the "liquidity preference," but it is still risky IMO.

    Originally posted by David Beard:

    Do you discuss that there is a market for buying/selling seasoned notes? Do you make any other hard/soft assurances for getting some or all of their funds back to them early? Penalties?

    You can address that there is a market for seasoned notes if you fully disclose that there will necessarily be a discount if they need to monetize early. I would make NO assurances explicit or implied. I would carefully spell out this risk and use disclosures. Note that for our equity pool we offer an out early for a penalty because of the nature of the cycle of money. In your case the most I think you could do is to HELP to get them a buyer for their position.
    Originally posted by David Beard:

    Seems it would be good to always have a waiting list or pipeline to provide potential liquidity to your current investors.

    It sure would! The trouble is that the hoped-for pool has a way of escaping to higher yields when you need it. I would say that you need a healthy margin for any potential liquidity needs for your investors if you are banking on this. Note that this pool will also compete with your desire to procure more debt from the same source as new projects crop up.
    Originally posted by David Beard:

    Obviously comparisons to equity market volatility and low bond/CD yields are your chief selling point, and are compelling.

    Possibly. It depends on who your target audience is. Another target could potentially be equity investors willing to purchase some sort of hybrid security that is debt-like with participation in the upside from your buy-and-holds. You could have a preferred return with a split...something like 5% pref. with 25% of the upside. This gives the investor a "CD with a lottery ticket attached" and is very appealing for those that seek steady income and the opportunity for capital gain.
    Originally posted by David Beard:

    Very simple really. Buy/rehab/lease properties at 25-35% gross returns, season for 90 days, re-appraise, seek 75% private financing, which should typically recover all of your initial investment. One investor per property.

    The trouble with one investor per property is that your investment has to line up pretty closely with their quantity of capital. Pooling money eliminates this as an issue. Giving the investor some of your upside also solves misaligned goals that are baked into the arrangement when you borrow money. The investor's goals are aligned with yours because you both participate in the upside with equity.
    Originally posted by David Beard:

    What approaches have worked for you for different categories of lenders? Early retirees (65-75), high earning pre-retirees (55-65), middle age accumulators (45-55), groups where safety and liquidity have varying degrees of importance.

    I quit chasing small pockets of money to avoid all of these types of questions. To me having my goals aligned with those of my investors keeps things as win/win.

    Food for thought...

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  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    David -

    Another way that you address the liquidity objection is by pointing out the low loan to value. The reason we tie the loan to investor purchase and any rehab is we insure plenty of equity in the property. If a lender needs to liquidate a loan for any reason we are able to insert another lender or 'sell' the note to another lender at full price to the original lender.

    I think it is a great way to offer an alternative for your buyers and insulate your business from the whims of banks, but it requires a pretty large network or at least a handful of really good lenders with a lot of capital.

    We try to stay away from discussing the note business because we have no experience in it and don't have the knowledge of that aspect to talk with any legitimacy.

    Keep asking any questions or throwing ideas on the wall. That is exactly what we did and kept working with the idea until it came to fruition and today it we have investors who use the program to keep building their portfolio so it has absolutely helped us secure our business when the banks have tightened their lending.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    I must confess, I thought this topic would garner a lot more interest....

    Surely there are folks on this site who are effectively using private lenders for loans of 5+ years to finance your buy-and-hold rentals?

    In a time where we have the best prices in a generation on SFRs, along with banks reluctance to lend on small less-expensive properties, and investor's frustration with equity markets and low bond/CD yields creating a conducive environment to offer them something vastly better, I can't think of any topic that would potentially be more important to those trying to build a portfolio of 1-4 unit properties to critical mass.

    I am in the process of putting together the materials I plan to use for discussions with prospective private lenders, and it seemed a great opportunity to have a robust discussion on what others are doing, and engage in idea-sharing.

    What works for you? Or what would you want, if you were putting funds to work for yourself or a family member?

    Terms, Rates, LTV, amort term
    Straight fixed? 3/1 ARM, 5/1 ARM, 7/1 ARM
    Personal guaranty provided?
    Collateral substitution rights?
    Tools for demonstrating credibility, discussing your team, and your track record
    etc.

    Again, we're talking about potential lenders in your sphere of influence, where you already have some degree of credibility and trust.

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  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    14y

    I think the lack of interest is because most private money has short durations. Financing long-term projects with short-term capital is the classical road to bankruptcy. FNMA notes take subject-to are a far better source of capital for those that have used all of their own FNMA bullets. This does limit your pool of potential investments somewhat, but I would much rather spend my time working those deals than trying to fit private money into long-term projects. The risk of the seller wanting their money back prematurely is high and it will be a PITA to manage.

    Another option is simply to procure portfolio loans from banks with similar durations and heightened rates (relative to FNMA money) to finance projects that are not taken subject-to. This seems like a lot less work than herding private money cats.

    Cobbling together capital to finance long-term deals is also hard because of securities problems and the desire by the gov-mint to protect non-accredited investors.

    My two cents...worth at least what you paid for it.

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  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    We are currently using private lenders to fund 5,7 and 10yr notes for our clients. Non recourse, no limit and can purchase in their LLC.

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
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  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    This was a key element of my mortgage business. Pooling money is the quickest way to get side ways with the SEC and state finance departments.

    Frankly, the issue lies in selective enforcement attitudes of regulators. One of my clients was an FBI Agent and the position the FBI took as far as financial fraud issues was that a mortgage or secured note was a security and having more than one entity funding could be construed as a mutual funding transaction. It depends on how it is structured. Having and LLC with investor members can work. As to SEC attorneys, I doubt you'll find one who will say that your operation avoids SEC regulations and provide a guarantee of that, since they are pretty broad in what might constitute a security, that will be determined by the regulators not one attorney.

    You'll also find that a broker or investors who have problems in a deal will put any straw man in a bind quickly if they can not cure the problem quickly. Financing deals through several investors is basically a banking operation and if you have an investor who squeaks really loud you can have the state banking authority knocking on your door.

    What I'm saying is that there is no 100% safe way that avoids all banking and security issues regardless of what an attorney might tell you, after all, the attorney has an on going opportunity representing you as issues arise.

    The way to put such a lender group together is to obtain contractual loan agreements with your investors, as a loan committment, to make future loans available within a short period of time.

    Usually obtaing short term financing for long term obligations is a good formula for failure. Being able to bring in a new or another investor to pay out another one is key.

    Chris made a great point with this matter and the personal guarntee. Basically that is what I did years ago, in the old days.

    Substituting collateral is a very touchy situation IMO. There are issues of self dealing that can apply if that new collateral is not as sufficient as the prior collateral and frankly, I doubt many brokers or investors address the issues as they are usually leaning toward conducting business in their own best interest. You need to go out of your way to ensure that the collateral is in all ways as good or better than the collateral being replaced.

    While I have done collateral substitution deals, I strongly advise to avoid the temptation of doing so without the approval of the lender/investor, such approval not being unreasonably denied. This puts the risk and liability back in the lap of the investor, taking at least some of the responsibility for their money. I don't think, IMO, that an investor type switching collateral to a lending investor does so without a vested interest or sufficient understanding of how the hammer can drop on them in doing so. I would never allow an investor to replace my collateral without my consent....NEVER!

    As I mentioned, doing so with consent and wording it that consent shall not be unreasonably denied, should be sufficient if you're worth your salt, for you to point out to your investor why you are doing so and "selling" them on the next deal or the substitution.

    Having done thousands of deals involving investors and lenders I can tell you there will be problems. Some investor or broker who has done maybe 300 deals has not done enough business to experience enough defaults and funding problems yet...you never know when you'll get squeezed for money.

    Best way is to line up with a bank or another institutional lender for a line of credit. I realize most investors can't swing this but even a charge card could help at 10K that could be
    tapped for small investors, seller seconds and misc. deals.

    Guess what I'm saying is that being able to do what you say you will do is paramont. My attitude was that my investors would be protected above all as you are really working for them. So you need to have money waiting in the wings to come in on a deal when it is needed. I suggest you try to put together your individual investors and institutional lenders. All in all, over twenty years +, none of my investors ever lost a dime!

    As to terms, such are only structured when you are borrowing as a commercial loan to your business and allow you to have working capital. As I recall, most of mine were three years with 30 yr. ams and the right of early payoff without penalty (as you can have penalties with commercial loans). An easy rate would be a couple points over the local bank CD rate, selected by the investor.

    When you start getting into improved values on properties held for sale, you can add interest equal to a shared appreciation amount to intice investors to go in to higher LTV properties flipped. Translating shared appreciation as an interest rate balloon payment keeps the investor wearing an investor's hat and not a partner.

    Substituting collateral is not necessary to keep the invested money when you sell the collateralized property. Your agreement can include an arrangement that any funds not collateralized shall be on deposit in an insured banking institution with such balances pledged to the investor.

    It's also a good idea to set forth a standardized LTV based on a qualified appraisal for those funds to come out of the bank and fund the next deal. If your next deal meets the collateral requirements set forth then there should (could)not be a reasonable denial!

    When getting an appriasal on rehabs, get the present market estimate and the value after repairs noted in the same appraisal so that you can use both values as they property is completed.
    Construct you collateral agreement around those values.

    IMO, as well, LOL, it's not a good idea to put investors in an arrangement that can be construed as a partnership.

    As additional collateral you can provide an assignment of rents, and insurance proceeds in the event of default (be careful here as insurance needs to go to the property, but if it is in default it could be used to reduce the amount owing).

    You can also simply assign any purchase agreement you do with a buyer to your investor....in the event of default.
    Investors (you) should keep a copy of the purchase agreement and place the original in a safe deposit box file. You should do an escrow agreement with YOUR attorney and provide instructions to release those contracts as appropriate in the event of your default or demise. Your sfae deposit key should be in a safe so that others can get to it in the event something happens to you and your money investor's attorney should know how they can proceed without you. This aspect of working with your money investor's attorney can really provide alot of credibility as a business person who knows what he is doing. Making the risks better managed for your investors makes them sleep better.

    Just some thoughts, didn't mean for it to be so long, but there is much more than these aspects. Ya think anyone would want a book on how to set up a successful lending operation? LOL

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  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    14y

    In flipping I have used and built a pipe line of private lenders.

    I thought this would make moving over to LT investments easy. Long story short, it was a harder sell then thought as they were spoiled by the ST returns, and the regulation elephant made it too much to do without formalizing as a hedge.

    I'd love to know any great ways to utilize these funds as well, in more then limited instances.

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    I agree these rates are great for the lender but not attractive at least to me as a borrower.

    "Suggestion:

    - 30% down on purchase/renovation costs (minimum)
    - 8.5 - 9.5% interest rate
    - 15 year am"

    It's just like a contractor doing a job.I can go out and find someone quick to paint my apartment unit for 500 OR I can take some time to find a painter that I can get to work for 75.00 a unit that does a good job.

    I believe finance is the same way in that there is a bunch of money wanting to lend at rates and conditions that are not attractive to a buyer.

    So you have to find a lender willing to take less than the majority so you have an advantage.

    A question I have thought about is would you target one really wealthy investor or a bunch of smaller loan investors??

    I figure if you develop a relationship with a wealthy investor and you both come to terms then you won't need to do all of this other more complicated stuff to fund deals.

    As you build success with deal after deal your terms might get better.

    I was just thinking out loud to myself.

    Interesting Discussion

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  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    Joel -

    Two quick responses to your post.

    1. Terms of the loan (In My Opinion) are good for both the lender and the borrower. The only ones borrowing this money are those that have no other options. They have three choices - pay all cash, borrow on these terms or be done purchasing.

    So while it is not perfect, it is an option.

    2. Wealthy individuals with an interest in a venture along these lines are not interested in lending their money for 5-10 years at 7%. We have raised millions from lenders in many different ways and in varying amounts, but none are interested in low returns to help us attract more buyers.

    I think in the end this is supplemental money. Meant to fill a void left when banks will not finance over 10 properties or self employed business owners, buyers who borrow this money are perfectly happy to borrow at the higher rates if it helps them leverage more property.

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  • Investor · San Ramon, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 569 votes
    14y

    God, I feel like a minnow dipping a toe in an ocean full of whales in here, but I still have to ask...

    What are you trying to accomplish?

    By paying above market rates you are essentially destroying the short term cash flow of the properties.

    Are you doing this as an equity play? A long term cash flow play?

    If so, why aren't you offering higher rates? You should be able to offer upwards of 12% returns for a break even position. In 15 years you have all the equity free and clear, not to mention a cash flowing property.

    Sorry, just trying to figure out what you're doing. At 12% interest, I imagine you could find some people that would go 100%.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Hi Nathan -- we're trying to develop a non-bank funding source to grow a rental portfolio, nothing more than that.

    Why non-banks? Well, in my target market, it is very difficult to obtain bank financing on modestly priced 1-4 unit properties. This is good and bad, good because the market is cash-only, and you can pick up some fantastic deals as a result. Bad because your ROI is crimped due to absence of leverage. It's a fact that some of the markets that got hit fairly hard also have local banks least willing to lend, because many are over-weighted in 1-4's, whether they're performing, non-performing, or REO. Their regulators have told them to pare back their 1-4 investment property collateral, which means curtail lending from their own portfolio. Obviously an over-reaction now that the horse is out of the barn, but it is what it is.

    I'm not running a conduit operation like these big turn-key investment companies, that buy/rehab, then sell to end-buyers on a turn-key basis. We're simply buying for our own account, and would like to find private lenders to prudently drive further growth.

    These are very secure loans, in my view, with 65% LTV position for a 10-year loan around 7.5%. Most 5-year CD yields are around 2-2.25%, and the 10yr treasury is trading in the same area. Early retirees are starved for yield, and it has a very detrimental impact on their lifestyle. Folks such as this can triple their disposable investment income by making conservative well-secured loans.

    A bond investment that would provide this kind of yield would be junk-rated with significant risk of default and a very volatile price. a 65% LTV secured loan that we'd be offering would have the equivalent of an A rating or better (obviously you wouldn't state it in this fashion since your loan is not rated by a rating agency).

    Yes, this is relatively illiquid and as such, it would be strongly suggested that this constitute no more than 25% of an investor's assets. (I'd think a signed acknowledgement of this would be in order.) Many financial planners recommend allocating a minority percentage of retiree invested assets to illiquid immediate annuities, for example.

    I don't know how you "duration match" a long-term buy-and-hold portfolio. Only conventional loans will lock rates for 15 to 30 years, and you can't grow far with these due to limitations. Local banks don't want to lock rates beyond 5 years, most prefer a bullet maturity at that point, though some will do an ARM with a 30 year maturity. And financing small properties (<50k) is notoriously difficult with any lender.

    It seems you would want:

    * A diversified roster of lenders - 15 or more preferably with $100k+ each to invest (meaning a total asset portfolio of $400k+)
    * Work with their fee-based financial planner if they have one, or recommend they utilize one, to fit this lending activity into their planning process.
    * Use 3rd party loan servicer with escrowing
    * Facilitate cashing out lenders early by matching with other lenders. This is not guaranteed, and there may be a penalty, particularly if rates have risen during the term of the loan.
    * Establish a formal capital reserving process for each property.
    * Provide annual photos, inspection, updated realtor comps
    * Provide quarterly NOI, debt coverage ratio, etc.
    * Stress that their collateral is a tangible, closely-managed asset, in a very stable area, providing a basic need, housing.

    Anyway, thinks for all the replies, would continue to be interested in feedback from others.

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  • Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:

    By paying above market rates you are essentially destroying the short term cash flow of the properties.

    You have some excellent questions....

    This is not necessarily true. I use private capital with a 2 year stop with and interest only payment. I effectively can offer investor 8% and even up to 9% on multifamily above 4 units. $50K minimum investment.

    After the property is performing for a year, I can refinance for around 5 to 5.25% with a local credit union.

    I, then, roll them into the next deal. The average rotation is around 18 months.

    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:
    Are you doing this as an equity play? A long term cash flow play?

    My goal is to build a 300 unit portfolio of rental properties. So, yes it is a long-term cash play.

    My business model targets distressed properties that are in need of much rehab and therefore are not able to be financed by a traditional lender. Hard Money costs are too high and they are generally want to be repaid in six month to 12 month.

    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:
    If so, why aren't you offering higher rates?

    I tie up much of my own capital in the rehab and purchase costs, so I cannot offer higher returns as I need a return on capital too. I would offer a higher return if an investor wanted to be a debt partner on a multi-unit.

    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:
    You should be able to offer upwards of 12% returns for a break even position. In 15 years you have all the equity free and clear, not to mention a cash flowing property.

    This is a poor strategy as equity is not what a professional investor strives for. Cash flow is the name of the game as we RE investors incur real expenses month over month and we rely on margins to cover those expenditures. Future equity is intangible and many people who are losing their homes have been burned by the very same "strategy" you suggested.

    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:
    Sorry, just trying to figure out what you're doing. At 12% interest, I imagine you could find some people that would go 100%.

    To put it simply, I cannot pay 12% on notes simply because there will be a much risk for the capital investor and this is really about a low risk venture with a moderate return investment with monthly returns.

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  • Investor · San Ramon, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 569 votes
    14y

    Scott, what LTV are you offering your investors with the 8 or 9% interest?

    Everything else makes sense... you're using them to be able to make cash offers and then getting out in a year or two.

    Also, how did you create a list of private investors? Did you find that easy to do or is it more the result of prolonged efforts and successes?

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  • Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:
    Scott, what LTV are you offering your investors with the 8 or 9% interest?

    Since LTV, when purchasing distressed properties, is actually the purchase price then it is technically 100%. However, I end up putting in around 20 to 30% worth of rehab, so the adjusted appraised value after work has been completed averages around 65%. Since my lender's refinance program requires a maximum LTV of 65%, plus a minimum of 6 months cash reserve, I am very careful and usually hit my mark because if I do not, I then have to come out of pocket.

    Originally posted by Nathan Emmert:
    Everything else makes sense... you're using them to be able to make cash offers and then getting out in a year or two.

    Also, how did you create a list of private investors? Did you find that easy to do or is it more the result of prolonged efforts and successes?

    Creating a list of private investors is a never ending proposition. Mostly, I talk with local business people and professionals whenever I get a chance. The bottom line is most people want to invest in real estate, but do not have the time, are not savvy enough, or settle for break-even just to say they own real estate.

    Once you show potential investors all the time, stress, and expense involved in rentals and demonstrate that they stand to make a lot more as a debt partner, their ears generally perk up. Everybody wants to cash checks and do very little work, right? Yeah, I actually show them how much work goes into a rental and the costs I incur.

    The hardest investor is your first one...

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    Love this discussion.I am getting out my popcorn and waiting for more juicy tidbits.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Yes, the comments are appreciated. Bill, you brought up many great points in all the info you shared above, BTW, so wanted to acknowledge.

    But out of 80k BP members, no one other than those running large turn-key real estate companies (thanks for feedback, Chris and Curt) have stated that they are successfully tapping private financing for 5-10 year terms loans.

    OK, even if you never considered it before, if you think this could have value growing your rental business, how would you approach it?

    If you were a financial planner with near/early retirees, how would you view this investment as a component of your client's portfolio? Most planners these days recommend clients withdraw no more than 4% per year from their portfolios (starting at retirement and then increasing indexed to inflation) if they want to have a high likelihood of not outliving their investments. And that's with a presumably balanced portfolio of bonds, equities, and cash.

    IMO, a fixed rate well-secured 7.5% investment looks exceptionally good in this context.

    What would be your primary objections?

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  • Investor · San Ramon, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 569 votes
    14y

    Hyperinflation...

    I think most economists believe this prolonged period of free money is going to eventually set us up for a period of very high inflation. At that point, a pure cash flow investment is going to look pretty crumby compared to something tied to an inflation index.

    Someone gives you a million dollars today. You give them $75,000 a year in returns. This year, that's not terrible... if everything doubles in price next year, suddenly that $75,000 ain't so good.

    Maybe you could offer them a small equity stake to balance some of that risk? If there is a big inflation curve, in theory the home prices and rents would both rise somewhat proportionally.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Nathan -- one can speculate about hyperinflation and other potentially adverse consequences of the govt printing money, such as a potential collapse of the dollar.

    The 10 yr treasury rate is 1.95%. Does the market think that hyper inflation is coming? Apparently not, but there is so much manipulation in the market now by the fed, who knows? Yes, most of us intuitively think that rates must rise going forward. However, I can only deal with the cards that are on the table, and offering something at 530 bps above the 10 yr treasury is very attractive to those with their money in CD's.

    Offering equity or a partnership arrangement opens up a whole can of worms that I wish to avoid if at all possible.

    Rents might rise in a modestly inflationary environment, and home prices as well. But given hyper inflation (how is this defined anyway, rates rising 500 bps or more?), I don't think so. Huge numbers of additional people won't be able to qualify for loans, and financing availability is what props up prices. Also, hyper inflation will be accompanied by high unemployment and a bankrupt federal treasury, so both private pay and Section 8 renters will be squeezed due to lack of wage income and lack of govt money.

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  • Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by David Beard:

    OK, even if you never considered it before, if you think this could have value growing your rental business, how would you approach it?

    Aside from all the obvious issues Bill has so accurately pointed out, raising medium term capital without the help of a licensed securities dealer is VERY difficult. It is the holy grail for RE investors.

    I can only share my limited experience with debt partners.

    In my experience, you might find it difficult to attract any medium term debt partners at 7.5% as others have said. Most people you run into are leery about real estate either having been stung by bad deals themselves or through someone they know. Security means very little these days as the headlines are dominated by banks losing money because of foreclosures and the talk about a deed of trust will go over their heads. Hence, your pitch will need to focus on safety through long-term cash flow and you will undoubtedly need to create a high level of trust and hold their hands through the entire process.

    1) I have had luck with doing I/O payments in order increase cash flows. These interest only payments can easily be illustrated to the laymen. Example, You loan me Y and I pay you X for 5 years and on the 60th month I repay you Y + X. Additionally, I have been able to defer payment and interest for up to 3 months while I rehab and rent. That way, I can offer a higher interest rate on their money while maximizing cash flows and reducing risk.

    2) Since your looking for medium term capital, you might consider offering points. You might find it more useful since you require a medium term. Although I prefer to offer points to be paid upon refinance (back-end) as an incentive for the debt partner to not jump ship, you might find it a useful tool to incentivize your partners to hang in there for the full-term.

    3) Offer some sort of equity offering. For instance, incentivize the debt partner to stay in full-term by offering to sell them a minority equity stake in the LCC holding the property.

    4) Form a private placement and get it registered with the proper authorities. This will likely cost you $20K or more in start-up fees, but then you could utilize financial planners to market to accredited investors. With that, you should have better luck with the 7.5%, but when you consider commissions to the security brokers, start-up costs, and other marketing and accounting expenses, your likely going to pay an extra point or two anyway.

    All of the above are merely based on my own experiences with investors who are known to me and who are accredited. Obviously, what works for me may not work for you and you should ALWAYS consult with legal counsel as part of your due diligence. Some of what has been discussed may violate securities laws and I am not an attorney or an expert in said law.

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Scott -- thanks for the thorough reply, filled with great nuggets of info. You have "been there, done that", clearly.

    The idea of offering back-end points as a refinancing incentive sounds good. I was certainly planning to leave enough spread there to enable an interest rate "sweetener" if needed to entice the reinvestment.

    I like the idea of IO. It mirrors CD-investing, and is easy to understand. I don't want to discuss fully or partially-amortizing loans.

    On demonstrating cash flow support, I'll target the debt coverage ratio (NOI divided by interest payment),at 1.75 or greater. Yes, NOI will be gross scheduled rent * 50%. None of the BS that some of these turnkey companies spout, assuming no vacancies and no maintenance or capital reserving expenses.

    Thanks, and congrats on the 1000-post club.

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  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    David -

    I would think there may be some hesitancy to the non-arms length set-up of the transactions. The lenders are lending you the money instead of a third party buyer. I didn't really understand in the beginning that this was for your own portfolios.

    In theory, everything you are saying is correct and there should be a lot of interest, but I think there may be a perception of a lack of security. Essentially someone is being asked to fund a no-money down loan at a decent but not exceptional rate and there is no back-up plan should something go wrong with the loan. That is the conclusion I come to after reading the whole forum.

    I have never tried to get a private lender to fund my own personal deals, but I think I probably could today after establishing a track record. However, they would expect me to be at the same LTV's and rates that I mentioned earlier. I just think it is going to be a tough sell if the deal appears tilted towards the borrower no matter how solid the return is for the lender.

    I'll look for more posts on it and would offer any advice I can think of as you go along trying to put this together. Best of luck

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  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    14y

    Thanks, Chris, I really didn't mean to project a "no money down" approach to this. That is not my angle AT ALL. We have ample capital, and plan to take a substantial "first loss" position in all properties, bearing losses to cushion the lenders.

    Also, when you say 65% of "purchase+rehab", for a reseller like yourselves, are you talking about MemphisInvest's cost, or are you talking about the higher purchase price of your ultimate buyer, reflecting MemphisInvest's reasoanble profit margin on the re-sell?

    Since we're buying/rehabbing distressed properties for our own account, let's conservatively assume we force 25% of market value appreciation into the property, and the property appraises for the higher amount. We obtain loan funds at 65% LTV using this appraisal amount. This equates to about an 80% LTV on our original purchase/rehab costs. So we have skin in the game, however you add it up, but to deny that we've created alot of value doesn't make sense to me.

    Of course, the leverage must be prudent, and that's why I want the debt coverage ratio to be at least 1.75 (using expenses at 50%), ensuring cash flow adequacy and imposing a limitation on how much leverage we would use. This might make the LTV 55% or 50% at times, if we were to get a really strong appraisal. And the converse would be true as well.

    The lender won't even know our purchase cost or rehab expenses. (They could research the purchase cost on the assessor's site, granted.)

    Thanks again.

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