New Partnership Model

New Partnership Model

Shiloh LundahlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I'd love to get some feedback and hear your thoughts on the investing model that I am planning on ramping up this year.

Let me give you some background for context and to help you understand why I am moving in this direction with investing this year. 

I have been investing in real estate for the past 15 years but more actively for the past 10 years. People started to ask me to help them learn how to invest so I started coaching new investors over the past 7 years on how to start investing in real estate. I would charge them $5,000 with the ability for them to earn back $2,500 and I'd have a call with them every other week to guide them on how to find deals and money lenders and how to get the properties fixed up and get them refinanced, etc. About 90% of my coaching students bought properties and increased their net worth on average of $100,000 the year we worked together. A mentor of mine told me that I was charging too little for the amount of value I was providing. So I increased my rate to $10,000 with the ability of my coaching students to earn back $5,000 if they completed their homework in betweeen coaching sessions that was geared towards helping them meet their real estate goals. The results of my students were about the same and they would create about $100,000 of increased net worth during the coaching program. My mentor told me I was still charging too low for the value I was providing. 

Towards the end of last year, one of my buddies contacted me and told me his accountant told him that he needed to buy some real estate to lower his tax bill. I shared with him some ideas on how to buy undervalued real estate and he basically told me that he would rather just partner with me and provide the money and have me find and manage the investment and then split the profits.  So I found and purchased 3 undervalued properties from wholesalers and we are just finishing up the 3rd one. Each property is estimated to create about $70,000 of profit over the next 3 years.  He has deposited $100,000 into the business account. That covers the down payment for the purchase, the rehab, and the $18,000 for reserves for the account, and $5,000 for me for each property for the time and work involved. That $5,000 is part of my portion of the 50% of the profits and will be deducted from my payout when the property is sold. 

The property will be rented out on a 3-year lease option and will be either sold to the tenant buyer or sold on the market if the tenant decides not to exercise the option.  

The money partner on these deals will bring in about $35,000 to $50,000 for each deal and the expected IRR is around 25%-35% each year for the 3 year period essentially doubling their money in 3-4 years.

So rather than focusing on picking up a couple of coaching clients this year, I think I am just going to focus on finding money partners to buy deals with.  I already have the knowledge, experience, and systems in place to do about 20 properties this year. So I think I am going to  shift my focus away from coaching and more towards partnering.

I'd love to get hear some of your thoughts and get some of your feedback. 

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V.G JasonPro Member
Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
1y
Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

@V.G Jason it seems like you don’t see that this type of partnership would be enticing for people who want to be passive investors.  Walk us through one of the kinds of deals you do with partners that are enticing for them. 


I don't work with partners, because I don't need to. I also don't post strategies online to drum up business so others can latch on and see what services I am subtly selling. Because, I don't have anything I am selling.

If someone asked me for advice on "passive" investing. I'd tell them passive investing is a farce, you really want active investing with systems in place.

But if they wanted less control in investments---go the route of equities, fixed income like tbills or CDs, mortgage notes syndicators, REITs, possibly RE syndicators but do your diligence especially now, and even crypto cause that's an investment with little control.

I would do all of those prior to giving up 50% upside on a physical RE investment to someone who has little risk, and is offering their time. I'd rather people offer their time through contractual work that raises the ceiling of my physical investment yet I keep all the equity.

Otherwise, why would I risk my capital?
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  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Allan C.:

    @V.G Jason I've been wondering where Carlos went as well. Hope he is ok as it seems odd for him to go cold turkey on this forum. 

    No idea, anybody know him personally? Hope he is okay, too.

    One of the best contributors to this forum.
  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @V.G Jason I didn't think you would continue to comment on this post, but since you did, I consider it fair game. 

    So let me see if I am understanding correctly. You criticized the partnership model that I proposed even though you don't do partnerships yourself. Then you criticized @Jonathan Greene because his posts highlight services that he provides. Then you criticize @Don Konipol saying that he is predatory in partnerships, all while you don't share any information about yourself in your profile. Sounds like a keyboard cowboy to me; one with all hat, and little cattle.

    Maybe you should apply to be an advanced moderator.  Not a normal moderator who makes sure that people who post are posting according to the rules, but an advanced moderator that is an authority on all things that he doesn't do himself, and one that can protect the unsuspecting new investor from dangerous partnership structures and people like me, Jonathan, Don and anyone else you may have on your list. 

    ***ATTENTION BIGGERPOCKETS MODERATION TEAM***

    I would like to nominate V.G Jason (I know his name and profile may be a little cryptic but just go with it) for a promotion to Advanced Moderator or Supreme Moderator if it suits your fancy.  He valiantly is protecting new and vulnerable biggerpockets members from bad partnership models and scoundrels like myself, Jonathan, Don and possibly others. 

    My goodness! The next thing you know V.G Jason will be accusing me of trying to promote my real estate investor retreat for high level investors that I am hosting at the end of April out of my properties in Costa Rica that you can find out more about in my profile.  And I haven't even mentioned that retreat in this entire post.  Some people, you know what I mean! Always accusing.

    I fully intend for this post to be removed by one of the actual moderators like my friend @JD Martin, but hopefully it will be left up for a just a little while until it gets a few laughs.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    I'm fair to my post opinion. It's interesting you want to call me out for calling you out. 

    Yet you can't debate the basis of my argument on why this is not an ideal model. At some point, it'll get down to the substance. So while you may want to raise your voice, I'll just strengthen the argument. While the debt angle makes sense, and the equity one is suspect. "Investors" should do diligence on the behavior of the LP/GP in this "partnership" model. That extra diligence is screaming.

    Perhaps you should stick to promoting yourself. 

    Maybe you can become a moderator then and censor my posts like you want to.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

    Thank you @Don Konipol for thinking this model is NOT evil. I agree. 

    I am interested in your causion and I'd like to know more details about that. I have probably done between 80 and 100 lease options and we haven't had any issues with litigation or anything. We try hard to follow the regulations, including the Dodd Frank Act. So I'd be interested in seeing what I might be missing that could be a possible danger with the lease option model in particular.

    Also, I would be interested in hearing some other models and investment strategies that would be better deals for passive investors. If you wouldn't mind sharing, that would be great. 


    Don maybe referring to state of Texas were lease options are highly regulated.. just sayin..
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    You can also reduce your transactional costs by using a bank construction to permanent loan with an earn out. Should be achievable with the LTC/LTV you are quoting. Will reduce transactional waste significantly.


    without transactional waste I would be out of bizzness LOL
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.

     They still own the house though. In a TK--they basically sign over control & overpay, but don't sign over equity.  Unless I'm off?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.

     They still own the house though. In a TK--they basically sign over control & overpay, but don't sign over equity.  Unless I'm off?

     correct but in Shilohs model there is forced equity turn key model there basically is no equity or negative equity if one has to sell within 2 to 3 years as transactional cost will eat your equity..  Keep in mind I started funding TK providers in 2002 and have done over 4000 of those deals for those companies over the years so pretty familiar with the model.

    Also keep in mind many investors simply wont partner with anyone they want total control.. Especially foreign investors.. 

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.

     They still own the house though. In a TK--they basically sign over control & overpay, but don't sign over equity.  Unless I'm off?

     correct but in Shilohs model there is forced equity turn key model there basically is no equity or negative equity if one has to sell within 2 to 3 years as transactional cost will eat your equity..  Keep in mind I started funding TK providers in 2002 and have done over 4000 of those deals for those companies over the years so pretty familiar with the model.

    Also keep in mind many investors simply wont partner with anyone they want total control.. Especially foreign investors.. 

     Agreed to the bold. Which is my hesitation with partnerships, but apparently I cannot have an opinion about them. 

    In the TK model though, you're underwater day 1 right? If you sell within the first 3-5 years you're OTM. But if you sell when its ITM, you reap the rewards. Full reward.

     In this model, you're locked into a lease option and if for some reason you need to sell. You're now out 50% of it, and need your partner to agree.  So the value add is really just covering ground, not adding ground. 

    Time can defeat the former, time can help the latter but the lack of control & giving up that much is just too much to overlook or ever agree to. 

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @V.G Jason Well that was a lackluster response.  I was hoping for something a little more lively. Let me break down the numbers for you on the debt model versus the equity model.

    Equity Model for the house on Noble:

    With Debt 7.875%
    Purchase Price$137,900.00
    Title Fees$4,541.00
    Financing Costs at purchase$1,700.00
    Insurance$1,257.00
    Rehab Costs$40,000.00
    Utility Costs while vacant$450.00
    Taxes while vacant (3 monts)$150.00
    Hard money payments$4,311.67
    Option Fee$3,900.00
    Loan$180,000.00
    Refinancing costs$8,000.00
    Reserves in account$10,000.00
    Shiloh's 5k share of profits$5,000.00
    Amount left into the deal$29,409.67
    Rent$1,500.00
    Monthly PI Payments$1,300.00
    Monthly Taxes$54.00
    Monthly Insurance$105.00
    Cash Flow$41.00
    Sales price$269,900.00
    Loan amount after 3 years$175,000.00
    Closing costs on the sale$2,000.00
    Proceeds from sale$92,900.00
    Profits from sale$63,490.33
    Profits from Cash Flow$1,476.00
    Profits from Option Fee$3,900.00
    Total Profits$68,866.33
    Dividing the Profits
    Operating Partner$31,933.17
    Money Partner$36,933.17
    Total money returned
    Operating Partner$36,933.17
    Money Partner$76,342.83
    APR for Money Partner42%

    Return for the money partner for the debt Model for the house on Noble 

    First position lender 180,000 at 75% of the $240,000 ARV

    Second position note from private money lender for $12,000 leveraging the property to 80%.

    If the option gets exercised at the end of the option period to keep the scenarios the same, then the total gain for the $12,000 would be $3,600 for the 3 years at 10%, which is what I would offer in second position for a note less than a $25,000. 

    So the risk is lower, as long as the market doesn't drop 20% and stay that low for the next 3 years. 

    The equity model has risk in that it is not going to go directly as planned.  The tenant may decide that they want to move out rather than exercise the option.  We may then sell the property earlier or we may bring in another tenant buyer for a shorter period of time. We may make more or less than planned.  But if things go more or less as planned then the money partner leaves in $29,409.67 but then gains the same as I would which is $36,933.17 over a 3 year period of time. Which is about a 42% return each year.  

    So it really just depends on which model the money partner would like. The debt model or the equity model. 

    And to respond to your statement that you can post your opinion about what you would like. That is definitely true, however, I would suggest you only post your opinion on things that you have a lot of experience with so that you don't come across looking foolish.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

    @V.G Jason Well that was a lackluster response.  I was hoping for something a little more lively. Let me break down the numbers for you on the debt model versus the equity model.

    Equity Model for the house on Noble:

    With Debt 7.875%
    Purchase Price$137,900.00
    Title Fees$4,541.00
    Financing Costs at purchase$1,700.00
    Insurance$1,257.00
    Rehab Costs$40,000.00
    Utility Costs while vacant$450.00
    Taxes while vacant (3 monts)$150.00
    Hard money payments$4,311.67
    Option Fee$3,900.00
    Loan$180,000.00
    Refinancing costs$8,000.00
    Reserves in account$10,000.00
    Shiloh's 5k share of profits$5,000.00
    Amount left into the deal$29,409.67
    Rent$1,500.00
    Monthly PI Payments$1,300.00
    Monthly Taxes$54.00
    Monthly Insurance$105.00
    Cash Flow$41.00
    Sales price$269,900.00
    Loan amount after 3 years$175,000.00
    Closing costs on the sale$2,000.00
    Proceeds from sale$92,900.00
    Profits from sale$63,490.33
    Profits from Cash Flow$1,476.00
    Profits from Option Fee$3,900.00
    Total Profits$68,866.33
    Dividing the Profits
    Operating Partner$31,933.17
    Money Partner$36,933.17
    Total money returned
    Operating Partner$36,933.17
    Money Partner$76,342.83
    APR for Money Partner53%

    Return for the money partner for the debt Model for the house on Noble 

    First position lender 180,000 at 75% of the $240,000 ARV

    Second position note from private money lender for $12,000 leveraging the property to 80%.

    If the option gets exercised at the end of the option period to keep the scenarios the same, then the total gain for the $12,000 would be $3,600 for the 3 years at 10%, which is what I would offer in second position for a note less than a $25,000. 

    So the risk is lower, as long as the market doesn't drop 20% and stay that low for the next 3 years. 

    The equity model has risk in that it is not going to go directly as planned.  The tenant may decide that they want to move out rather than exercise the option.  We may then sell the property earlier or we may bring in another tenant buyer for a shorter period of time. We may make more or less than planned.  But if things go more or less as planned then the money partner leaves in $29,409.67 but then gains the same as I would which is $36,933.17 over a 3 year period of time. Which is about a 42% return each year.  

    So it really just depends on which model the money partner would like. The debt model or the equity model. 

    And to respond to your statement that you can post your opinion about what you would like. That is definitely true, however, I would suggest you only post your opinion on things that you have a lot of experience with so that you don't come across looking foolish.

    The debt model doesn't force me to give up equity in the house. Equity provider does. Debt provider is essentially being a HML no?

    As for posting my opinion, I can have an opinion on something I have not engaged in because it's just that--an opinion. If it gets you that distraught, maybe you look at respecting or ignoring someone's opinion without discounting just so you don't come off looking like a desperate shill. That's my suggestion to you. 

    edit: first sentence.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.

     They still own the house though. In a TK--they basically sign over control & overpay, but don't sign over equity.  Unless I'm off?

     correct but in Shilohs model there is forced equity turn key model there basically is no equity or negative equity if one has to sell within 2 to 3 years as transactional cost will eat your equity..  Keep in mind I started funding TK providers in 2002 and have done over 4000 of those deals for those companies over the years so pretty familiar with the model.

    Also keep in mind many investors simply wont partner with anyone they want total control.. Especially foreign investors.. 

     Agreed to the bold. Which is my hesitation with partnerships, but apparently I cannot have an opinion about them. 

    In the TK model though, you're underwater day 1 right? If you sell within the first 3-5 years you're OTM. But if you sell when its ITM, you reap the rewards. Full reward.

     In this model, you're locked into a lease option and if for some reason you need to sell. You're now out 50% of it, and need your partner to agree.  So the value add is really just covering ground, not adding ground. 

    Time can defeat the former, time can help the latter but the lack of control & giving up that much is just too much to overlook or ever agree to. 


     no question a long term lease does restrict exit. 

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @Jay Hinrichs i'm not planning on scaling this model very big. I've changed some of my goals over the last couple of years. my goal is to get to $50,000 a month in monthly cash flow. My plan for doing that is to acquire 40 properties with partners and pay off 40 of my own properties and have them free and clear. Also, optimize the new assisted living facility that we just purchased in January. Then buy out my partners on my Costa Rica properties, and just host retreats in Costa Rica, visit my cabins, collect cash flow, and enjoy my wife and kids and travel around visiting friends in my awesome motorhome which I have not purchased yet.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.

     They still own the house though. In a TK--they basically sign over control & overpay, but don't sign over equity.  Unless I'm off?

     correct but in Shilohs model there is forced equity turn key model there basically is no equity or negative equity if one has to sell within 2 to 3 years as transactional cost will eat your equity..  Keep in mind I started funding TK providers in 2002 and have done over 4000 of those deals for those companies over the years so pretty familiar with the model.

    Also keep in mind many investors simply wont partner with anyone they want total control.. Especially foreign investors.. 

     Agreed to the bold. Which is my hesitation with partnerships, but apparently I cannot have an opinion about them. 

    In the TK model though, you're underwater day 1 right? If you sell within the first 3-5 years you're OTM. But if you sell when its ITM, you reap the rewards. Full reward.

     In this model, you're locked into a lease option and if for some reason you need to sell. You're now out 50% of it, and need your partner to agree.  So the value add is really just covering ground, not adding ground. 

    Time can defeat the former, time can help the latter but the lack of control & giving up that much is just too much to overlook or ever agree to. 


     no question a long term lease does restrict exit. 


     Question from the back of the classroom 

    Isn't there more than 1 way to structure LO's?, I recall posters mentioning & it lowered risk.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Alan F.:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Stuart Udis:

    @Shiloh Lundahl  No reason to get upset. V.G Jason merely pointed out what you are providing to the hypothetical partnership  can easily be performed through  contracted services with proper vetting and without having to give up 50% of the upside. Most individuals can originate the debt these projects require as well so its not as if your signature is opening the doors to properties these partners couldn't purchase on their own either.  You mention you would also share in losses, but you aren't investing any capital so poor performance would lead to your partner realizing a monetary loss before you.

    Stuart I think what most are missing here is these investor are/want to be passive they dont want to have to hunt for a loan or try to run a rehab project ( remotely as most probably dont live in the market these props are at). And from my point of view ONE property one investor is far safer than the syndication model for most passive investors .. kind of like Investors making a HML where they are the only beneficiary .. My thought is along with others scaling and taking care of 20 plus set of books is a ton of work :)

    so for those of us active in the business of course we would think we can just do this ourselves and of course we can


     The "passivity" is worth 50% of equity versus other forms of investments available in the market?

    It's an opportunity cost, just like anything else. I'm still confused on why someone does this. 


    VG is the exact same thought process of why investors buy Turn key rentals through turnkey brokers or turnkey companies.. Its all done for them and they are willing to pay a premium.. Instead of having to source a rehabber house, figure out how to do rehab when they have zero experience at it. and then trying to find a HML to do the loan up front ( if thye dont have the cash) and a take out lender.

     They still own the house though. In a TK--they basically sign over control & overpay, but don't sign over equity.  Unless I'm off?

     correct but in Shilohs model there is forced equity turn key model there basically is no equity or negative equity if one has to sell within 2 to 3 years as transactional cost will eat your equity..  Keep in mind I started funding TK providers in 2002 and have done over 4000 of those deals for those companies over the years so pretty familiar with the model.

    Also keep in mind many investors simply wont partner with anyone they want total control.. Especially foreign investors.. 

     Agreed to the bold. Which is my hesitation with partnerships, but apparently I cannot have an opinion about them. 

    In the TK model though, you're underwater day 1 right? If you sell within the first 3-5 years you're OTM. But if you sell when its ITM, you reap the rewards. Full reward.

     In this model, you're locked into a lease option and if for some reason you need to sell. You're now out 50% of it, and need your partner to agree.  So the value add is really just covering ground, not adding ground. 

    Time can defeat the former, time can help the latter but the lack of control & giving up that much is just too much to overlook or ever agree to. 


     no question a long term lease does restrict exit. 


     Question from the back of the classroom 

    Isn't there more than 1 way to structure LO's?, I recall posters mentioning & it lowered risk.


    not a model I do in my day job.. just recall TEXAS investors commenting that LO is either not legal or highly restrictive in Texas. In my mind if a lease option person bought the home that would be a bonus I would underwrite these for a sell on the open market. I did sell one of my personal residences on LO and that one did payoff.. but that was an executive that got transferred from his home state to our area wanted a nice home and they did convert within 9 months once their home sold and closed.. Different buy profile than what Shiloh is talking about I am sure some convert but as I said I would underwrite that they dont and if they do its a bonus.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

    @Jay Hinrichs i'm not planning on scaling this model very big. I've changed some of my goals over the last couple of years. my goal is to get to $50,000 a month in monthly cash flow. My plan for doing that is to acquire 40 properties with partners and pay off 40 of my own properties and have them free and clear. Also, optimize the new assisted living facility that we just purchased in January. Then buy out my partners on my Costa Rica properties, and just host retreats in Costa Rica, visit my cabins, collect cash flow, and enjoy my wife and kids and travel around visiting friends in my awesome motorhome which I have not purchased yet.


    great goals.. mine is to buy a nice drift boat and flyfish all over the west and up into BC. trying to figure out do I buy a summer cabin say in Western Montana or Eastern Idado as a home base.. Or go the motor home route. ( wife does not care for the motor home route though) Or just do what we do now.. fly to where we want to fish stay in hotel and hire a guide !!!..
  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @Alan F. Yes. There are Different ways of structuring lease options. And just to let you know there are people that are far more knowledgeable about lease options than I am on BIggerPockets. I've been doing them since 2017 but there are people on BiggerPockets that have been doing them since the 90s.  

    I personally do three types of lease options. I do fixed lease options, declining lease options, and floating lease options. It depends on the amount of money that the tenant buyer wants to put towards the option as to which type of lease option I do. I've had people put down $30,000 or even up to $50,000 as an option fee. When they do that, I adjust the strike price lower because I  take in consideration the amount that they paid for the option. Tenant buyers that put a high option fee have almost always exercised the option and purchased the property.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

    @Alan F. Yes. There are Different ways of structuring lease options. And just to let you know there are people that are far more knowledgeable about lease options than I am on BIggerPockets. I've been doing them since 2017 but there are people on BiggerPockets that have been doing them since the 90s.  

    I personally do three types of lease options. I do fixed lease options, declining lease options, and floating lease options. It depends on the amount of money that the tenant buyer wants to put towards the option as to which type of lease option I do. I've had people put down $30,000 or even up to $50,000 as an option fee. When they do that, I adjust the strike price lower because I  take in consideration the amount that they paid for the option. Tenant buyers that put a high option fee have almost always exercised the option and purchased the property.


     someone puts 50k towards the option I suspect that has a high potential to convert.. someone that does 10k much less.. IF I recall on my personal home the option fee was 25k but that was 2001. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

    @Alan F. Yes. There are Different ways of structuring lease options. And just to let you know there are people that are far more knowledgeable about lease options than I am on BIggerPockets. I've been doing them since 2017 but there are people on BiggerPockets that have been doing them since the 90s.  

    I personally do three types of lease options. I do fixed lease options, declining lease options, and floating lease options. It depends on the amount of money that the tenant buyer wants to put towards the option as to which type of lease option I do. I've had people put down $30,000 or even up to $50,000 as an option fee. When they do that, I adjust the strike price lower because I  take in consideration the amount that they paid for the option. Tenant buyers that put a high option fee have almost always exercised the option and purchased the property.


     Thx! In some cases option fees aren't refundable right? So if sold as exit strategy, might mitigate some loss?

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Shiloh Lundahl

    I read through your profile, and I think I recall reading your posts from the past, but it seems like it has been a while.  

    To be direct, I am not a fan of what you are proposing because it shifts all the risk onto the other partner.  If I am reading correctly, they are simply supplying the money for the partnership.  You get to deduct $5,000 immediately to oversee the project.  You split the monthly proceeds assuming there are monthly proceeds, and upon exit in 3 years, you split the profit from the deal, again assuming there is any and everyone is evened up at that time.

    If you were pitching me on this, I would say no because you assume no risk.  But, the parts that would concern me the most are the unknowns after the fact.  I have to trust not only that you can oversee the project and deliver on the financing, the leasing, and the management (none of which is in place when I deposit $100k into an account), but I would have to have an iron-clad partnership agreement.

    -------------------------

    I realized in the middle of writing this response that there was simply no way I would ever do this, even with an iron-clad agreement.  Who pays when the resident breaks the agreement and quits paying?  Who pays when the resident knows they will eventually leave and stop taking care of the place?  Who covers the tax bill when they don't pay the tax bill or the insurance?  You may be excellent at what you do and beat the national average in every category of your expertise.  I take all of that at face value because we do the same.  However, no matter how good you are, just like us, you are in the real estate business and everything I wrote above happens on a regular basis.  You are only in control of what you do.  You are not in control of the lenders, the appraisers, the inspectors or the residents.  To assume that everything will always be cupcakes and rainbows (my words not yours) is dangerous when you are taking other people's money and then providing a service.

    I did two deals like this with a mentor when I first started investing.  I shared this recently on the BP podcast with Dave, and I told him that after two deals, I realized that I would never do a partnership again where I gave up 50% of the profit but provided 100% of the capital.  I did the partnership for the same reason investors do them today.  I wanted someone to hold my hand because I was scared of what I didn't know.  I wanted someone else to blame if the deal went poorly.   I didn't learn much from those two deals, but I realized I didn't need partnerships if I wanted to be in real estate. 

    Those are my thoughts and the things you have to tighten up if you actually want to offer this as a service.  I would want to know how you handle all of the negatives and bad outcomes long before you told me how great the investment was going to be.  

    Just my 02 cents. There are plenty of people who want their hand held if you want to go this route.  If you decide to move forward, best of luck to you.

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    I did a partnership like this, 50/50, with me putting up 100% of the capital out of fear.  Unfortunately, many people will do partnerships like this because they seem straightforward and don't realize what they are giving up.  I didn't at the time.  

    What they get in return is someone to blame if it goes wrong.  After 20+ years, I hear from so many who are more motivated by fear than optimism and make decisions based on not losing rather than a high probability of winning.  In the end, many fail because they make a decision based on the wrong motivation.
  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    Hey @Chris Clothier welcome to the conversation. I got to know your brother Kent a little bit while we were in the Avengers Mastermind Group together with Dan Fleyshman, Tarek El Moussa, Cole Hatter, Kris Krohn, and Cody Sperber. It was an awesome time. In fact, in that mastermind group, I connected with a lot of high-level investors and that’s where I got the confidence to start investing in Costa Rica with partners that I met in that mastermind group.

    Your brother gave me some good advice of how to run a debt fund, which was super helpful.

    With regards to the lease option model, I feel super comfortable with it and I’ve done enough to see how profitable lease options are and I would say they’re much more profitable, and require a lot less effort once you are used to them, than any other type of real estate I’ve done over the past 15 years.

    I posted some numbers above that showed the difference of doing a partnership model or a debt model. Either of which are fine with me. I just had a lot of people that have asked me in the past to partner up with them on a deal, but because I was already working so much with my main partner on all of our properties, I just coached them instead and helped them find their own deals. And I still coach, and people still lend me money on my deals, but I thought there would be a market for people that wanted more of an equity position by doing this model rather than just the debt position by getting a 10 to 12% return in second position.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Chris Clothier:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    I did a partnership like this, 50/50, with me putting up 100% of the capital out of fear.  Unfortunately, many people will do partnerships like this because they seem straightforward and don't realize what they are giving up.  I didn't at the time.  

    What they get in return is someone to blame if it goes wrong.  After 20+ years, I hear from so many who are more motivated by fear than optimism and make decisions based on not losing rather than a high probability of winning.  In the end, many fail because they make a decision based on the wrong motivation.

    Glad to hear that you have actually done a partnership like this, or any partnership in fact, therefore you're qualified to share your opinion unlike some of us who have not done a partnership and should not be allowed to comment.

    Despite investing through through the tech bubble, Argentine currency crisis, the shale boom, through the GFC, through global markets, through polar vortex's, through the oil drop in 2014 with Russia, there's no way I could qualify to come up with a legitimate and qualified response to such a partnership. 

    Yet in some strange fashion, we both came to same conclusion. I wonder how that could be.

    In all seriousness, appreciate your input. It drops some wisdom & folks can actually see it for what it is. Another point I wanted to stress that you mentioned when you said you didn't want to give up 50% of the profit, when providing the 100% of capital and you did that cause you entered with fear-- you need to fail some to really grow. That includes with investing, I've learned the most through my failures. Hopefully, none of our posts get censored as some are vying for. 

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