What should I do with this property?

What should I do with this property?

Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes

I need advice of whether or not I should sell, refinance, or HELOC this one rental property. Given that real estate isn't my full time profession, I decided to ask the pros to see what you would do in this situation.

I bought this townhouse in Northern Virginia (hot market) in 2010 as an owner occupied for 306K with a down payment of 3K thanks to a desperate bank who paid closing costs and the first time homeowner tax credit (8K) and a FHA loan at 3.5% down. Lived in it a few years, then decide to buy a new home and convert this to a student rental for a university nearby.

Fast forward to today and what was worth 306K is now worth 400K with a mortgage balance of ~280K.  Mortgage is ~$2000/mo with rent ~$2500 after expenses nets ~$250-300/mo. 

Since this is a student rental, I can't afford to have a PM due to the yearly turnover bc they would essentially eat all my profits so I manage the property which is not too bad, but can be a pain at times. Conversely I have never had a single day of vacancy so there is a trade off to having student housing. 

I do have 2 other homes in North Carolina which are doing very well. I bought these for under 100K and they each pull in ~$300 per month after expenses. This has begun to make me start thinking if I need to change my strategy and use the money in this VA home to purchase more homes in NC. I plan on purchasing many more homes in the NC area in the future.

Options:

1. Should I sell this to net around ~90K after realtors and such and get rid of the landlord lifestyle for a more passive investor role?  Feel like I'm throwing away a gem if I do this since with the university nearby, this should always have renters and appreciate very well. 

2. Should I refinance this home to net ~40K to pull money out of it for purchases. If I do this then I might have a negative cash flow producing property.  Isn't that a big NO NO?  I would also lose my great mortgage terms @ 30yr 3.5% interest rate. 

3. Should I get a HELOC? Since HELOC's are normally 75% LTV I would need to wait a few years to do this since I'm just slightly below that.

4. Am I missing any options? 

0Reply
84 views

Most Popular Reply

Rental Property Investor · Davenport, FL · Member since 2016 · 593 posts · 382 votes
9y

@Chris Ayers Sell, and deploy the cash in a higher ROI market. Turn the new property over to a PM and enjoy the time that is now freed up to find more properties to invest in.

See this reply in the discussion

30 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Northern, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 904 votes
    9y

    What to do would be a function of your long term goals. Although, I don't have a crystal ball, no one really is expecting the Northern VA market to dip.

    So Option # 5 would be to do absolutely NOTHING, and you would more likely than not be just fine 5 yrs down the road.

  • Vendor · New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 217 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    Your mortgage term is amazing, but it seems like you already had the property for a number of years, so I wonder what large repairs you would need to perform in the long-run. I think:

    1. If you can't raise rents on the property, this place doesn't seem too profitable despite the amazing mortgage terms. I say this because you're only pocketing $300/month, and if you have to fix something huge, thats all your profit! Moreover, a month of vacancy will hit you like a knife in the chest w/ that steep mortgage. 

    2. If you consider other opportunities, I think there are potentials for higher returns. I would not be too absorbed with the great lending terms, because an 5/7Y ARM can you get that rate if not lower. If you are not familiar, with an ARM, I wrote an article about it and give you more details on why its a good strategy.

    3. Perhaps consider pulling out of the property, net around $90K, and see if you can buy THREE more properties that can net you that $3600/home/year. Then you'd be making triple the amount! 

    4. Don't get attached. Haha.

    Good luck brother.

  • CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Chris Ayers

    I have a busy day job and can't afford to put a lot of time into managing properties, so my #1 criteria is easy/handsoff .... I would sell this property if I were you, and put money somewhere else that requires less managing, like SFH with turnover every 3-5 years....

  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Chinmay J.:

    What to do would be a function of your long term goals. Although, I don't have a crystal ball, no one really is expecting the Northern VA market to dip.

    So Option # 5 would be to do absolutely NOTHING, and you would more likely than not be just fine 5 yrs down the road.

     I thought 6% fee was standard. Can you negotiate with seller agents to get it down? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Davenport, FL · Member since 2016 · 593 posts · 382 votes
    9y

    @Chris Ayers Sell, and deploy the cash in a higher ROI market. Turn the new property over to a PM and enjoy the time that is now freed up to find more properties to invest in.

  • Investor · Fairfax, VA · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    9y
    Lots of agents list at 4.5% in the area. Feel free to reach out with any other questions.
  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Franco Li:

    Your mortgage term is amazing, but it seems like you already had the property for a number of years, so I wonder what large repairs you would need to perform in the long-run. I think:

    1. If you can't raise rents on the property, this place doesn't seem too profitable despite the amazing mortgage terms. I say this because you're only pocketing $300/month, and if you have to fix something huge, thats all your profit! Moreover, a month of vacancy will hit you like a knife in the chest w/ that steep mortgage. 

    2. If you consider other opportunities, I think there are potentials for higher returns. I would not be too absorbed with the great lending terms, because an 5/7Y ARM can you get that rate if not lower. If you are not familiar, with an ARM, I wrote an article about it and give you more details on why its a good strategy.

    3. Perhaps consider pulling out of the property, net around $90K, and see if you can buy THREE more properties that can net you that $3600/home/year. Then you'd be making triple the amount! 

    4. Don't get attached. Haha.

    Good luck brother.

     Wise words all around. Thanks man. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Kristopher Hanks:

    @Chris Ayers Sell, and deploy the cash in a higher ROI market. Turn the new property over to a PM and enjoy the time that is now freed up to find more properties to invest in.

     That's what I'm currently leaning towards. Wanted to see if anyone had any compelling reasons to keep it. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Dennis Poulsen:

    Lots of agents list at 4.5% in the area. Feel free to reach out with any other questions.

     Whom do you use that will list for 4.5%? 

  • Real Estate Agent · Hagerstown, MD · Member since 2017 · 21 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Those mortgage terms and no-vacancies are great, but since the cashflow isn't astonishing and it sounds like you plan on focusing more on NC anyway, sell it.

    6% is a very common listing commission. That said, everything is negotiable, so it depends on the property, marketing plan, and whatever deal you can work out. Some agents/brokerages will work for less, and either way, an occupied student rental near a university shouldn't be hard to sell.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y
    Chris Ayers If you sell try and do a 1031 exchange to avoid taxes on your profits. In North Carolina can a $400,000 property net more than $2500 a month in rent. I assume it can, if so you will have increased cash flow but would lose out on appreciation in northern Virginia
    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Niceville, FL · Member since 2017 · 88 posts · 136 votes
    9y
    Chris Ayers that's gr8 that you are in such a good position. I didn't notice if you or anyone else mentioned that since your 6-7 years into your loan you should be knocking out about $500+ per month out of that mortgage. That's an additional $6K per year that your doing no extra work for and not be by taxed (yet) on. And that number will continue to go up slightly each month. You have a history with this property. You know the issues, you know the market, you know the tenant base, you know what has been done to the property. Sounds like it's a little pain to manage, but your banking $3,600 per year + $6K in mortgage pay down plus some excellent appreciation that probably won't go backwards anytime soon. My humble advice is to keep the home. Take a little more time to save up some money to buy yourself one of those nice little rentals in NC. Keep doing what your doing and you'll be sitting real pretty in 10 years. Great job so far. Sounds like your on your way! I love to hear these success stories.
  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

    Chris Ayers
    If you sell try and do a 1031 exchange to avoid taxes on your profits.

    In North Carolina can a $400,000 property net more than $2500 a month in rent. I assume it can, if so you will have increased cash flow but would lose out on appreciation in northern Virginia

     Ideally, I would buy 4 homes work 100K each which should bring in 1K per month a piece. 

  • Ashburn, VA · Member since 2017 · 85 posts · 28 votes
    9y

    The only reason to keep it around would be the appreciation factor, which is speculative and I would rather cash out and go for a surer thing. 

  • Lender · Winlock, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Your FHA mortgage has MI on it. Consider refinancing to a Fannie / Freddie mortgage at 80% LTV cash out. Get 40K from the refinance, then use that as your down on the rentals in NC. Your payments on the student rental should be close to the same that you have now, considering your getting rid of mortgage insurance and now you will have 40K to pick up 1-3 more rentals in NC. This will increase your overall net cash flow and give you more tax write offs (depreciation) among others. You will still be getting the mortgage pay down via all your renters and can always use a 1031 whenever you decide to sell.

    I'm not sure what property management would be on a student rental, but its possible you could make enough from all the properties that you could now put the student rental in property management and free up your time. More net cash flow, more free time, more write offs. Build proper reserves and all is good from there. 

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 177 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Currently with your $300 cash flow and the $90K in equity you are getting a flat 4% return on that money. That is for me, too low of a return. I also would be very skeptical of the cash flow in the first place. After your mortgage, which I assume is PITI, you are left with $500 per month. No way long term you are only spending $200 per month on maintenance and CAPEX. My guess is that soon you will taking a lot of money out of pocket for some real repairs, especially with the wear and tear of student housing. I would sell it and give yourself a pat on the back for a couple of years of positive cash flow and increase in equity, and then go and put that equity into other RE investments that give you better returns, and room for your coveted PM fees.
  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Kevin Romines:

    Your FHA mortgage has MI on it. Consider refinancing to a Fannie / Freddie mortgage at 80% LTV cash out. Get 40K from the refinance, then use that as your down on the rentals in NC. Your payments on the student rental should be close to the same that you have now, considering your getting rid of mortgage insurance and now you will have 40K to pick up 1-3 more rentals in NC. This will increase your overall net cash flow and give you more tax write offs (depreciation) among others. You will still be getting the mortgage pay down via all your renters and can always use a 1031 whenever you decide to sell.

    I'm not sure what property management would be on a student rental, but its possible you could make enough from all the properties that you could now put the student rental in property management and free up your time. More net cash flow, more free time, more write offs. Build proper reserves and all is good from there. 

    Didn't mention this but I refinanced shortly after and don't have any MI now. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Igor Messano:

    Currently with your $300 cash flow and the $90K in equity you are getting a flat 4% return on that money. That is for me, too low of a return. I also would be very skeptical of the cash flow in the first place. After your mortgage, which I assume is PITI, you are left with $500 per month. No way long term you are only spending $200 per month on maintenance and CAPEX. My guess is that soon you will taking a lot of money out of pocket for some real repairs, especially with the wear and tear of student housing.

    I would sell it and give yourself a pat on the back for a couple of years of positive cash flow and increase in equity, and then go and put that equity into other RE investments that give you better returns, and room for your coveted PM fees.

    That definitely puts things in perspective Igor. The $200/mo maintenance is what I've been spending short term and CAPEX will definitely hit my in the near future when I need a new roof/HVAC.

    Appreciate it. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Carlisle, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 543 votes
    9y

    @Chris Ayers, the 3.5% interest rate is the gem in this whole thing.  You are not going to find a loan even close to that for, what is now, an investment property.  However, you have a decent piece of equity and a solid tenant base.  All things to really heavily weigh.

    Have you listened to @Russell Brazil in the podcast he recently did.  He talks about this topic specifically.  It is a great interview, and Russell does a great job talking about using long-term holds for wealth building.  It would be worth your time.  Of note, he is also a realtor licensed in northern Virginia and it would be wise to reach out to him.

    I am curious if you can elaborate on the $500 worth of expenses each month. That seems a bit high for a planning factor (25%), but if that is realized cost each month, then that will definitely be something for the folks chiming in to consider......I am hoping that is a planning factor for repairs and CAPEX, and you have been setting aside a bit of that ($250 a month or more) for the unexpected capital expenses. Or is it the HOA that drives the number up to $500?

    If my hope above is correct, I would say hold it.  I will not be in the majority here, but I subscribe to the wealth building idea long term.  That will not be the case for everyone, and that is fine, but you have an asset in a competitive market that really weathered the crash in 08 (serves as historical reference), with 68.9% equity after only investing 3K of your own money.  That doesn't include the second closing, when you refi'd, so that would be a consideration as well.

    Again, without having all the details, this is my two cents. The things that weren't mentioned could force another answer: HOA, CAPEX reserves, refinance money invested, etc.....

    Good luck! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Kevin Hunter:

    @Chris Ayers, the 3.5% interest rate is the gem in this whole thing.  You are not going to find a loan even close to that for, what is now, an investment property.  However, you have a decent piece of equity and a solid tenant base.  All things to really heavily weigh.

    Have you listened to @Russell Brazil in the podcast he recently did.  He talks about this topic specifically.  It is a great interview, and Russell does a great job talking about using long-term holds for wealth building.  It would be worth your time.  Of note, he is also a realtor licensed in northern Virginia and it would be wise to reach out to him.

    I am curious if you can elaborate on the $500 worth of expenses each month. That seems a bit high for a planning factor (25%), but if that is realized cost each month, then that will definitely be something for the folks chiming in to consider......I am hoping that is a planning factor for repairs and CAPEX, and you have been setting aside a bit of that ($250 a month or more) for the unexpected capital expenses. Or is it the HOA that drives the number up to $500?

    If my hope above is correct, I would say hold it.  I will not be in the majority here, but I subscribe to the wealth building idea long term.  That will not be the case for everyone, and that is fine, but you have an asset in a competitive market that really weathered the crash in 08 (serves as historical reference), with 68.9% equity after only investing 3K of your own money.  That doesn't include the second closing, when you refi'd, so that would be a consideration as well.

    Again, without having all the details, this is my two cents. The things that weren't mentioned could force another answer: HOA, CAPEX reserves, refinance money invested, etc.....

    Good luck! 

    Kevin, this home is in Burke actually where you're from. 

    I did not listen to that one, but I saved it in my "to be watched" queue. 

    I said there's $500 difference between rent and mortgage and assuming $250/mo in expenses on previous years of owning the profit is around $250/mo. HOSA is $90/mo which I included in the mortgage already for easy calculating purposes.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Carlisle, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 543 votes
    9y

    @Chris Ayers, ok got it. Thanks for the clarification. I love this area and am a huge fan of investing here. It is getting really hard to get any kind of a spread though. So by setting aside the other $250 per month for CAPEX, you will not have any cashflow but will have a great asset in a great area. I am not sure if you are in a position to save the other $250 for capex, rather than paying yourself, but my opinion is , if you are, to hold it for long term wealth. Again, listen to that podcast. He makes a really good argument.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    Thanks for the shout out @Kevin Hunter.

    Buying and holding in high demand areas over long periods of time is as close to as a sure thing in wealth building as you get. It sounds like you've already made about  $100k....so why mess with a good thing? You can probably deploy that money to make more cash flow some place else....but are you investing to create monthly cash flow in the hundreds of dollars a month, which is fine if you are....or are you investing with the goal of buildings hundreds of thousands of dollars in your balance sheet. 

    Don't get me wrong...i have cash flow properties and they help pay my monthly bills....but it's the assets in the high demand areas that build a lot more wealth on my balance sheet. Montgomery County, NoVa, DC, Howard County....chances are that by holding properties in these areas, as well as say high demand areas of NYC, Boston, San Fran (I've owned in Boston too) will make you far more money in the long run. You just have to have patience.

  • Rental Property Investor · Warrenton, VA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

    Thanks for the shout out @Kevin Hunter.

    Buying and holding in high demand areas over long periods of time is as close to as a sure thing in wealth building as you get. It sounds like you've already made about  $100k....so why mess with a good thing? You can probably deploy that money to make more cash flow some place else....but are you investing to create monthly cash flow in the hundreds of dollars a month, which is fine if you are....or are you investing with the goal of buildings hundreds of thousands of dollars in your balance sheet. 

    Don't get me wrong...i have cash flow properties and they help pay my monthly bills....but it's the assets in the high demand areas that build a lot more wealth on my balance sheet. Montgomery County, NoVa, DC, Howard County....chances are that by holding properties in these areas, as well as say high demand areas of NYC, Boston, San Fran (I've owned in Boston too) will make you far more money in the long run. You just have to have patience.

    Russel, 

    Thanks for the response.  All great points which I agree with. 

    If I wanted to not personally manage this property anymore while tapping into some of its equity, how could I make it work?  

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    MODERATOR NOTE -

    The forums are for discussion and not advertising your fees or commission rates. You are free to advertise such things in the market place. Doing so in the forums is violation of the Self Promotion aspects of the forum rules.

  • Real Estate Agent · Falls Church · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Chris Ayers I always think cash is the best asset to have. Sell it and use the cash to put down payments on multiple properties

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.