Do you need an LLC? Absolutely. There is No Debate About It.

Do you need an LLC? Absolutely. There is No Debate About It.

Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 722 posts · 1k+ votes

The LLC debate rages on here at BP. Rarely does a day pass without an investor asking whether they should use an LLC or not. Perhaps BP should have a whole forum just devoted to this question . . .

Having an LLC is a no-brainer. Real estate is a business, and if you are in business you should not be operating in your own name -- unless the law requires it, such as for certain professionals like lawyers and doctors who society feels should not have their professional liability limited. My knowledge is not exhaustive here, but I am unaware of any jurisdiction that requires you to own investment real estate in your own name.

People are confused because they get a lot of bad advice about LLCs -- what they can and cannot do. They are told -- wrongly in my view -- that they should not bother with LLCs because an LLC will not protect them from liability to a lender or because insurance does the same thing. I will expose the incorrect thinking below.

But first, let's discuss what an LLC actually is. A Limited Liability Company is a corporate form with a separate legal identity. As the name implies, it limits your liability to the value of the asset. It does not eliminate your liability, so when people say you should not bother with an LLC because it does not eliminate all liability, they are confusing the issue. An LLC provides important liability limitation and risk-management capability, and if you are in business you should be taking advantage.

It is true that lenders won't lend to an LLC with no history. If you are new, and the LLC does not have a proven cash flow, a lender will make you sign on the debt yourself. But you should still organize your business in a corporate form, like an LLC. Why? Because banks are not your only potential creditors. Who else is out there? Practically the entire world is a potential creditor. Tenants, vendors, guests of tenants, the mailman, UPS, the cable guy -- in other words, anyone who ever sells anything to the property or sets foot on it is a potential creditor. (Anyone who sets foot on the property is a potential creditor if they slip and fall on the property -- or if they claim they slipped and fell even if they did not.) If the property is owned by an LLC that you own, the LLC is the debtor. If you own the property directly, YOU are the debtor. If an LLC owns the property, the worst the creditor can do to you is take the property. If you own the property, and the property is not worth enough to satisfy the judgment, then the creditor will take the property AND THEN go after your personal assets -- that means your house, your car, your 401(k), your children's 529 plan, your baseball card collection, your monthly paycheck.

Insurance is another must, but it does not replace an LLC. If you have insurance, that's great. It will cover what's in the insurance contract, up to the coverage limit. But insurance does not cover it when you don't pay a vendor. And what if someone is injured on your property and the court awards more than the insurance coverage? If you have an LLC, they may try to go after your assets, but they won't be successful if you have run the business properly. If you own the property in your own name, then you should re-read the previous paragraph about your house, your car, your 401(k), etc.

A very important note about LLCs is, as I said above, that they are separate legal entities. To get LLC protection against creditors, you must respect the separate legal entity. You must IGNORE the advice that some real estate gurus give, which is to run a whole bunch of personal expenses through the LLC. THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO. Will it save you some taxes? Maybe, if you don't get audited. Will it destroy the limited liability protection and expose your personal assets to seizure by creditors? Absolutely.

The biggest complaint against LLCs is that they cost money. Yes, you need to file tax returns for them. Yes, you need to do proper accounting. All this is true. These are all costs of doing business. But, remember, this is a business. You are not in real estate for a hobby. This is where the big boys and girls play. If you are not willing to spend a couple hundred dollars a year on LLC costs, you probably should not be in this business at all. But the real question is: Would you rather have the couple hundred dollars extra each year or the peace of mind knowing that your and your family's personal assets are not exposed because you decided to buy an investment property? That choice is up to you, but to me the answer is obvious.

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Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
11y

I'm a young investor, and purchased a property via the "house-hacking" method back in November of 2014.  The property is under my name, and I rent out the other side to two wonderful tenants.

The work has been done Do-It -Yourself style, and I have gone a few months now successfully living rent free.  

Make no mistake about it, I consider this Duplex to be a business, and run it as such.  I manage the tenants with a separate email address and have a separate bank account for property related expenses.  I pay rent to the business and take money out of the business.

But the property is under my own name.

Reading the OP, I am committing a basic fail against common sense as a real estate investor. But I disagree completely. I had several immense advantages in putting this property under my own name that would have been forfeited were the property under an LLC:

1) I used FHA financing. Try putting down less than 5% on a property within an LLC, especially as a first-time buyer.

2) I am the occupant of the home.  I can rent to whoever I want, and for any reason whatsoever.  It's MY house, not a rental property, and the laws governing it are as such.

3) I had much better interest rates on my mortgage than the LLC would have had access to.

4) My mortgage interest is tax deductible.  In the first few years, where the bulk of my mortgage payments are comprised of interest, this is more advantageous than depreciation.

5) Assuming I live in the property for more than two years, and the property appreciates, I can sell for a tax-free capital gain.

The disadvantages are as follows:

1) Limited protection.  I'm 24 years old and this property is basically the grand total of my worldly assets.  I don't have much to protect.  I also have an umbrella insurance policy.  
This type of protection is good enough for millions of landlords with far more to lose than I. 

2) I'm obviously the owner of the property. I can't hide ownership behind an LLC. In my case, this advantage to the LLC is totally moot. The tenants live next door! I'm obviously the owner.

Conclusion:

Investing through an LLC would have been extremely expensive for me, setup and legal costs set aside. Furthermore, it would have delayed my first purchase significantly, and taken away subjective advantages in running my business as a personal asset.

I think that it is shallow to claim that having an LLC is a "no-brainer". I think that at the very least, my argument here shows that it is a debatable topic and that a reasonable person could conclude that there are indeed strong advantages to operating real estate assets under your own name.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Scott Harper:

    @scotttrench 

    I believe Scott Trench demonstrates very valid reasons for not having an llc. I was wondering how you handle depreciation and mortgage interest if a property is in an llc. Can you still deduct it off your 1040? With my properties in my name. I do get the deductions.  I also wonder if you purchase through an ira or solo 401 k wether you would limit exposure to the value of the 401k. Supposedly, the property is titled in a 401 k name.

    Thanks for the supportive comment!  As far as a business is concerned, both interest and depreciation are considered expenses, and thus offset net income.  The net income of the business, depending on the business, is then either taxed directly, or flows through to your personal income.  

    I'm not sure about the implications of investing through a 401(k) or other retirement account.  That's a great question and might make for a great new forum thread!

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y

    I disagree. An LLC or a S corp is NOT a must have. I appreciate your input, but believe you are posting incorrect information. A lawyer I am NOT...and won't pretend to be one here. That being said, I can state without a doubt that some states have held a single member LLC to be a disregarded entity in the case of lawsuits. Florida is one of those states. You can form an LLC and put all the real estate into them you want. If you get a judgement against you, and you have a single member LLC, the courts have indeed ignored (disregarded) the entity and stripped the so-called "protection" that the person forming the LLC thought they had. To my knowledge, there are different rulings on multi-member LLC's. That being the case, is it prudent to form an LLC if you are starting RE investing (or other types of businesses)? That depends. Find a good competent attorney for advice.

  • Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
    11y

    @John Thedfordyou hit the nail on the head. Laws that govern corporate entities such as LLCs and S Corps are state specific. While @Jonathan Twomblyhas resparked an age old debate he offers no basis for his broad declaration that an LLC is necessary. I almost hate to comment but I feel I must just to point out that I have been investing for 15 years. I own 26 units. I just closed today on a SFR. All this without an LLC. I manage my own properties. Im a "Real" business despite popular belief. Im not sure Im doing anything wrong. I have a family. I have assets. I have no LLC. How do I sleep at night?

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Scott Harper:

    @scotttrench 

    I believe Scott Trench demonstrates very valid reasons for not having an llc. I was wondering how you handle depreciation and mortgage interest if a property is in an llc. Can you still deduct it off your 1040? With my properties in my name. I do get the deductions.  I also wonder if you purchase through an ira or solo 401 k wether you would limit exposure to the value of the 401k. Supposedly, the property is titled in a 401 k name.

    Sorry...off topic...but since you asked: when you put investment RE into a retirement account you lose several tax advantages: all writeoffs (taxes, insurance, maintenance) as well as depreciation. The upside is you don't have to claim the income immediately, but I think the trade-off is poor. I use my SOLO 401K and do HML. I get excellent returns and don't forfeit tax advantages like having RE inside it would. I hold my RE outside of my 401K, and have the full 27.5 years of depreciation to help shield my taxable income. Also, one last thought: 1031 exchanges. I have no idea, but could not fathom any reason to want to do a 1031 if RE is inside of a retirement fund (I don't even know if that is legal). However, outside of a retirement fund, you can 1031 your investments and shield 100% of your gain.

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Rob Beland:

    @John Thedfordyou hit the nail on the head. Laws that govern corporate entities such as LLCs and S Corps are state specific. While @Jonathan Twomblyhas resparked an age old debate he offers no basis for his broad declaration that an LLC is necessary. I almost hate to comment but I feel I must just to point out that I have been investing for 15 years. I own 26 units. I just closed today on a SFR. All this without an LLC. I manage my own properties. Im a "Real" business despite popular belief. Im not sure Im doing anything wrong. I have a family. I have assets. I have no LLC. How do I sleep at night?

    If you run your business dilligently, have liability insurance, etc...and your properties cash flow I would bet you sleep VERY well at night!

  • Contractor · Blackfoot, ID · Member since 2013 · 149 posts · 52 votes
    11y

    I am still looking for a solid answer on what is the best way to move a property from your name into a corporate structure.

    I am currently buying a duplex in my wife and I's name. We want to put it in an LLC, but haven't been able to find a way to move it effectively.

    Anybody have a solid answer?

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Kim:

    Has anyone ever heard of anyone using their LLC to protect themselves in a REAL life situation?

    I was sued personally, Due to business activity not protected by llc. (most of my properties are in an llc). they went after all my personal assets. found out from lawyer, sell off everything except your home, and a car. Can't take that.  all sales have to be open market sales at market value to non relatives. arms length transactions. The moneys I collected went to the lawyers for litigation. I had a house in my name I raised my family in paid for took 25 years .(not in llc held personally) I had not lived in it for 3 years was a rental, it was a big target. A heloc took that target away.  They didn't want something that had a huge debt against it.  Even a divorce was planned to save her 1/2 of our marital assets. And possibly bankruptcy. This took 5 years before litigation ended. 

    now the rest of the story, the properties I am a partner with were in an llc., they were brought up once in the beginning of the suit. showed llc proof. were never mentioned again.    there was about 35 properties. 

    so yes I got a very expensive education on llc's. 

    I closed and lost a business, (wasn't in llc). sold motorcycle, boat, business assets, refinanced a paid off home,  lost a vp position at my job, just about lost my 30 yr marriage, almost had a nervous breakdown, became a virtual recluse.     

    all of that because i didn't know that i could have started a llc for 50 bucks. so yes a few hundred bucks a year is very much worth it.

    my attorneys first words when i took the lawsuit to him was.

    "Lets not do any more business that is not in an llc."

    I really cant elaborate anymore than that.

    Btw every time there was a change in the case I went to my banker, set in his office, kept him informed on every step.  Talked about personal bankruptcy, and that I would need his help to re-establish credit if needed.

    Now 3 llcs and a trust.  everything has own bank accounts, credit cards, ein numbers,  I don't mix any funds. not even gas for a car. one of the llcs own a truck and trailer. That sounds like a lot but it hasn't cost me 1/10th of what it cost me for not having one.   And I have lots of corporate veils to pierce. And more are coming. I learned a valuable information you personally own , a house and a car. 

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:
    Originally posted by @Scott Harper:

    @scotttrench 

    I believe Scott Trench demonstrates very valid reasons for not having an llc. I was wondering how you handle depreciation and mortgage interest if a property is in an llc. Can you still deduct it off your 1040? With my properties in my name. I do get the deductions.  I also wonder if you purchase through an ira or solo 401 k wether you would limit exposure to the value of the 401k. Supposedly, the property is titled in a 401 k name.

    Sorry...off topic...but since you asked: when you put investment RE into a retirement account you lose several tax advantages: all writeoffs (taxes, insurance, maintenance) as well as depreciation. The upside is you don't have to claim the income immediately, but I think the trade-off is poor. I use my SOLO 401K and do HML. I get excellent returns and don't forfeit tax advantages like having RE inside it would. I hold my RE outside of my 401K, and have the full 27.5 years of depreciation to help shield my taxable income. Also, one last thought: 1031 exchanges. I have no idea, but could not fathom any reason to want to do a 1031 if RE is inside of a retirement fund (I don't even know if that is legal). However, outside of a retirement fund, you can 1031 your investments and shield 100% of your gain.

    I have two homes in my IRA, you are exactly right I lose

    all writeoffs (taxes, insurance, maintenance) as well as depreciation

    . but my Ira was making a whopping 1 to 3 % return before I moved them to the houses.

    Now it makes 18 to 20% return in tax deferred income. At least I know how to make money on a house. it's not like the guy calling me telling me we need to move this investment into that investment so he can bleed a commission out of my account. house one paid for house two in three years. the two houses should buy house three in two years. all inside the IRA. Call me crazy, but my plan is to take some of the rental income as disbursements when I retire and never touch the assets.

  • Real Estate Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    Now it makes 18 to 20% return in tax deferred income. At least I know how to make money on a house. it's not like the guy calling me telling me we need to move this investment into that investment so he can bleed a commission out of my account. house one paid for house two in three years. the two houses should buy house three in two years. all inside the IRA. Call me crazy, but my plan is to take some of the rental income as disbursements when I retire and never touch the assets.

     Very interesting post. Thank you. When you write that you're getting a "18 to 20% return", what do you mean? Is this appreciation? Increase in the market? Just curious the return is driving by the market/economy or is static/based on rents paying down principal.

    I'm curious because I have money sitting in a cash retirement account. Not even making 1%. Been debating about pulling it all out and using as more investment capital. Then I've heard of scenarios like yours.

    Also... do you know if I can place an existing property I own into my retirement account?

    Thanks a lot.

  • Real Estate Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    @Rod Fisher

    Sorry for double post.

  • Rental Property Investor · SF Bay Area, CA · Member since 2014 · 352 posts · 543 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Rod F.:
    Originally posted by @Joe Kim:

    Has anyone ever heard of anyone using their LLC to protect themselves in a REAL life situation?

    I was sued personally, Due to business activity not protected by llc. (most of my properties are in an llc). they went after all my personal assets. found out from lawyer, sell off everything except your home, and a car. Can't take that.  all sales have to be open market sales at market value to non relatives. arms length transactions. The moneys I collected went to the lawyers for litigation. I had a house in my name I raised my family in paid for took 25 years .(not in llc held personally) I had not lived in it for 3 years was a rental, it was a big target. A heloc took that target away.  They didn't want something that had a huge debt against it.  Even a divorce was planned to save her 1/2 of our marital assets. And possibly bankruptcy. This took 5 years before litigation ended. 

    now the rest of the story, the properties I am a partner with were in an llc., they were brought up once in the beginning of the suit. showed llc proof. were never mentioned again.    there was about 35 properties. 

    so yes I got a very expensive education on llc's. 

    I closed and lost a business, (wasn't in llc). sold motorcycle, boat, business assets, refinanced a paid off home,  lost a vp position at my job, just about lost my 30 yr marriage, almost had a nervous breakdown, became a virtual recluse.     

    all of that because i didn't know that i could have started a llc for 50 bucks. so yes a few hundred bucks a year is very much worth it.

    my attorneys first words when i took the lawsuit to him was.

    "Lets not do any more business that is not in an llc."

    I really cant elaborate anymore than that.

    Btw every time there was a change in the case I went to my banker, set in his office, kept him informed on every step.  Talked about personal bankruptcy, and that I would need his help to re-establish credit if needed.

    Now 3 llcs and a trust.  everything has own bank accounts, credit cards, ein numbers,  I don't mix any funds. not even gas for a car. one of the llcs own a truck and trailer. That sounds like a lot but it hasn't cost me 1/10th of what it cost me for not having one.   And I have lots of corporate veils to pierce. And more are coming. I learned a valuable information you personally own , a house and a car. 

    Hi Rod,

    Thanks for sharing.  I'm curious  - how did insurance work into this?   

    Did you have any insurance covering your business?   

    Did you have any umbrella insurance?

    Do you think multiple layers of insurance could have protected you?  

    Because for me I don't run a business but my rental properties have liability coverage.  I plan to get an umbrella coverage over the rental properties and then I have a personal umbrella.   

    I'm sorry to hear what happened to you.  

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Steve Vaughan  you may want to read @Jonathan Twombly profile, website, and previous posts, the latter which are some of the most thoughtful and intelligent I have ever read concerning real estate LLC's. He is a Harvard trained lawyer who actually has litigated RE and LLC claims. I think he is well above the level of having you question his credentials on this matter considering your background relative to his. If you want to debate him you should make a specific point.

    I'm interested in what @Rob Beland can say on this matter as he is a regular advocate of never forming LLC's as they are totally worthless in his studied legal opinion. Even better I would love to hear what our regular big government advocate Bill Gulley can add as to why you don't need an LLC because you should trust the courts to make the right decision regarding your legal culpability and bow down to their wisdom in distributing your assets in an equitable manor to damaged and aggrieved tenants. According to his regular posts, a good and responsible landlord would never, ever, be the subject of a expensive lawsuit because we all know there are no such thing as frivolous lawsuits and ambulance chasers.

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Rob Beland I like your logic. which basically boils down to "I don't need an LLC because I haven't been sued yet"

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Jeff Rabinowitz  I apologize, I should have also given you credit to essentially making the same argument as Rob has.  Although besides the , "I haven't been sued yet so screw it",  you add the Bill Gulley angle of "bad things don't happen to good people."  Sure we all know only slumlords, misanthropes,  and reprobates get sued.  Just ask the landlords that got sued for having, putatively, set their water heater on  too high a temperature and were held financially liable for tenant burns for perhaps query the landlord held liable for his contractor raping their tenant.  Those type of horrible random events WOULD NEVER happen to you because you are a good responsible person and you care a lot.

    A more intelligent argument would be: I'm a good landlord so my pot odds are so low of successfully being sued that I don't want to bother with the cost and hassle of forming a LLC. I may not agree with that argument but it is a lot more sensical and realistic

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Thomas Coburn:

    Now it makes 18 to 20% return in tax deferred income. At least I know how to make money on a house. it's not like the guy calling me telling me we need to move this investment into that investment so he can bleed a commission out of my account. house one paid for house two in three years. the two houses should buy house three in two years. all inside the IRA. Call me crazy, but my plan is to take some of the rental income as disbursements when I retire and never touch the assets.

     Very interesting post. Thank you. When you write that you're getting a "18 to 20% return", what do you mean? Is this appreciation? Increase in the market? Just curious the return is driving by the market/economy or is static/based on rents paying down principal.

    I'm curious because I have money sitting in a cash retirement account. Not even making 1%. Been debating about pulling it all out and using as more investment capital. Then I've heard of scenarios like yours.

    Also... do you know if I can place an existing property I own into my retirement account?

    Thanks a lot.

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y

    Thomas the llc paid cash for house, including all rehab repairs. the rents collected are the 18 to 20 % cash returned to the IRA, annually. don't even consider the appreciation in my return figure. actually after rehab. there was an approximately 60% increase in market value. (appraised). the 18 to 20% is rents less taxes and insurance. everything goes back to ira for future investments. I fixed everything , no callbacks. only call I had this year on that house was a light fixture not working turned out to be light bulb.

    I could not buy a property i currently owned. title is in IRA, owned by a trust. I act as manager and hold checkbook. every transaction has to have transparency. nothing gets charged to account except business transactions. not even a coke or gallon of gas. It has it's own bank account, and credit accounts.

    House two is being rehabbed now, trying to decide on flipping or holding. again cash transaction.

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y

    Joe.

    like I said i cannot go into great detail about this.

    As far as insurance, after the fact, I was told personal insurance doesn't  cover business transactions. zero coverage. I wasn't covered very well by insurance. but even then there are limits to your coverage.  not even legal representation was covered.

    The llc could have filed bankruptcy.  closed shop.

    on another case I sued a contractor I did work for 20k. attorney sued, contractor llc , and him personally.  Judge threw out personal suit. got judgment on llc,  He closed llc, with virtually no assets. started a new company the next week. another llc. only person that got paid was the attorney the 5k it cost me to sue.  that was another good lesson in llc's.

    like they say "It's not if it's when u get sued." 

    everyone is entitled to their opinion on this subject. it's up to you to protect yourself.

     My advise if I would give it to someone would be talk to your attorney and accountant. They know the laws. my experiences are what has happened to me. I am just sharing what I can about the education I have paid dearly for.

     Don't bury your head in the sand and hope they won't notice you. The more you grow, the bigger target you are.  the corporate veils , are your protection.

  • Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
    11y

    My point is not to advocate against LLCs for any investor its that 90+% of investors here on BP will never reach a level of net worth to worry about needing asset protection. I have "millions" in assets. What else do I have? Lots of debt. Its the nature of investing. Most investors have 65-75% debt on their real estate. In the event Im sued what exactly am I protecting? Get in line behind my mortgage companies if you want my properties. What exposure does some SFR investor in the midwest have when he is buying $30K rentals with 75% debt on them? This debate goes on and on. When your total net worth is $200K and half of your monthly cash flow goes to attorneys and accounts and corporate filing fees and you're setting up LLCs to manage your LLCs and there is a fundamental problem and all of this talk is almost to the point of fear mongering. Half of the people on BP are so fearful of "piercing the corporate veil" and they don't even know what that means.

  • Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Steve B., you read a lot into my statement. I have been sued several times. I have never had a money judgement against me. The most difficult suit was against my IRA. Though it was expensive to defend, the plaintiff withdrew his suit without receiving a penny from the IRA. Unfortunately, sometimes when you are sued you lose even if you win--that is a story for another time. A LLC would not have helped in any of the cases I have been involved in.

    Cost is not really a factor for me in Michigan as the fee to start a LLC is only $50 and there is an annual $50 fee to keep it active. I do have some LLCs. I own a share of an apartment building in one and have done new construction projects in one. My wife also owns a couple LLCs for her businesses. I have not used LLCs for my rentals and don't see the need. I don't believe LLCs will ever be harmful but I don't think they are usually very helpful.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    quote of @Steve B. "Even better I would love to hear what our regular big government advocate Bill Gulley can add as to why you don't need an LLC because you should trust the courts to make the right decision regarding your legal culpability and bow down to their wisdom in distributing your assets in an equitable manor to damaged and aggrieved tenants. According to his regular posts, a good and responsible landlord would never, ever, be the subject of a expensive lawsuit because we all know there are no such thing as frivolous lawsuits and ambulance chasers."

     I don't advocate for big government, I'm just in the reality of having to live under it so that I'm less exposed to its effects. :)

    Did you miss my comments as to your location? Assessing the risks, property types, scope and size of operation and management. My comments here are more in depth than my usual postings of get insurance and manage well. 

    So far, I've not seen an issue that couldn't have been avoided through good management, perhaps my ideas of good management exceed the abilities of small investors in reality, maybe they don't ask the right questions of counsel, all I have is experience in about 10 states of one type or another. When I began, we didn't have LLCs, landlords held properties individually, LLCs didn't exist until the mid 90's in Mo. 

    The only real issue I have in this thread is the blanket opinion that everyone must have an entity to hold property. Jerry W. a member here and an attorney holds property individually, I'm sure he has assets, I doubt he has issues with ambulance chasers or frivolous claims. 

    I think my views are in line with the thinking of most of our lawyer members, who don't have any marketing agendas in setting up entities for investors. Point is, not everyone needs an entity to start out with, at some point, like in Rod's case, having assets and equity can make you a target and forming an entity will be prudent later on for those who stay in the game and succeed. Newbies that have little can still start out as I did, if you disagree then please point out why I failed so badly in the business and lost my job, wife, dog, cars, boats, properties, my pillow and my salt shaker. (Assuming everyone knows I never suffered from such things)     :)

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mike Baker:

    I am still looking for a solid answer on what is the best way to move a property from your name into a corporate structure.

    I am currently buying a duplex in my wife and I's name. We want to put it in an LLC, but haven't been able to find a way to move it effectively.

    Anybody have a solid answer?

    The property can be deede

    The property can be deeded to an entity, the issue is any due on sale clause if you have a mortgage. There are exceptions for transfers under federal law, one is a transfer for estate planning purposes where there is no change in the beneficial interest. See you attorney and s/he may do some estate planning with your family setting property into an entity and justify the transfer as an estate plan. Trusts or LLCs or other entities can have ownership or affiliate relationships, for example, a Trust could own an LLC.

    As they say, the best way to protect your assets is by not owning any! :) 

  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 308 posts · 170 votes
    11y

    @Jonathan Twombly

    You wrote "

    Insurance is another must, but it does not replace an LLC. If you have insurance, that's great. It will cover what's in the insurance contract, up to the coverage limit. But insurance does not cover it when you don't pay a vendor. And what if someone is injured on your property and the court awards more than the insurance coverage?"

    You asked..what if? Nothing happens if you do have good coverage above and beyond with a cheap umbrella policy. Your entire page long argument becomes moot.

    If you don't have proper coverage in the LLC they are going to take that. Same rules apply.

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    11y

    One of the Great Debates Rages On!

    Disclosure, I have and like entity structures for asset protection, tax planning, and for the gamemanship of it.  I also like the fact that because I am focusing on distancing myself from Liability I force myself to make it more like a business.  

    Property Manager, check. 

    Operating Agreements with Charging Orders, check. 

    Employee handbook, check.  

    Vet my vendors, check.  

    Carry lots of insurance, check.  

    Added extra riders to my insurance, check.

    Lawyer involved in setting up my LLC, check.

    Audited by a CPA anually, check.

    Seperate Business Accounts, check.

    I am sure there are other check marks I've forgotten to include here, but the question is "Was this done for me?"  Nope. I am in a partnership, with a partner who has a lot more assets than I do.  Assets that one day I hope to inherit!  I partner with my mom.  And not only has it made it more family friendly (We keep it tranparent with the other sibling, and other family members involved) but when we have disagreements we have systems in place to handle those and it doesn't become an awkward thanskgiving dinner!

    So I believe that in my circumstance that the LLC was beneficial. Now however, I have yet to see in my days on BP any one have a post saying: "I GOT SUED, HOW MY LLC SAVED MY BUTTOCKS!" I have seen lots of, "Tenant threatening to sue, what do I do?" And when they listen to the, "meh, wait for them to file the lawsuit" advice I shiver. When I see them take proactive steps to deal with the lawsuit, consulting an attorney and handling the issue quickly and swiftly, I applaud.

    Until such time as I see a thread about "I GOT SUED, HOW MY LLC SAVED MY BUTTOCKS!" that involves a self managed, single member llc, my advice will continue to be; consult an attorney and cpa to find out what the right solution for you, your tax situation, assets situation, your risk profile, and your BS handling abilities; to determine the right course of action. But in 90% of the cases overly insuring will protect you.

  • Attorney · Shawnee, OK · Member since 2013 · 350 posts · 230 votes
    11y

    I am a lawyer and I recommend LLCs.

    Here are the arguments against them as I understand:'

    1. They don't work for asset protection-

    I met with a home builder yesterday to discuss filing bankruptcy. He has an LLC. He had 7 or 8 lawsuits over the past few years. Here is the mental calculation I have to go through- first, who is being sued? If it is the LLC, I can completely ignore it. That got rid of all of them except one between him and a business partner. They work. They end lawsuits. They are expensive to fight against.

    Can they be defeated? Yes. Everything can be done wrong if you try hard enough. Someone's poor management skills are not an argument against them. That is a reason to do a good job, which is a different argument.

    2. They are expensive or difficult to manage- 

    The OP said it best. If you are not willing to learn how business is done or can't afford it, maybe you should reconsider what you are doing. You should be able to set up your LLC for a few hundred dollars and the yearly fees are less than $100 in every state I know of. ($25 in Oklahoma.) Find out what the actual costs are. You will probably be pleasantly surprised.

    3. My attorney said I don't need one-

    There are some bad attorneys out there and they give bad advice. Talk to three attorneys who actually litigate civil cases and see what they say. Here is one for free- I am a licensed attorney in the state of Oklahoma. I primarily practice under the federal bankruptcy code. I spend all day dealing with individuals who had financial problems in life. Legal entities should be properly used by anyone operating a business.

    4. Person X doesn't use them and he/she is fine-

    Yeah for you! Seriously, that means you have personally figured out how to do things right and nothing very bad has ever happened to you. That is awesome for you. That is even statistically correct for the majority of individuals out there. When I was in Law School, my wills and trust professor started our class out by saying she did not have a will. Sounds stupid right? Well here is the deal. Our laws are set up to do what most of us want. In the case of the will, my professor understood that the law would do what she wanted anyway because she was the norm. Most of us don't have life shattering problems in our real estate businesses and if you ignore me, you will probably be fine too. Your individual experiences are one data point. That is a very small data set. The people who had real problems are probably not on a website touting their experiences to the world.

    5. I can't get a loan/ buy a house in an LLC-

    I have two houses that are not in my LLCs. One is my first home which I have a mortgage on and I turned into a rental. It was how I started out and why I got that loan. House hacking indicates you are finding a loophole in the system to get started. It is not how you should base your business structure. My second one was my first fixer and I was too lazy to get my business structured correctly. It has been a problem ever since. Set up your structure for what you want to be and you will grow into it. Don't waste time and money or become paralyzed by it. It should be a very small part of the process along the way. 

    6. I don't need it because I have insurance and I don't do anything wrong-

    This is an extension of #4. Be fully insured. Do a great job running your properties. LLC's are not substitutes for these things. They are an additional layer. Every lawsuit involves two people who think they are right and every time one of them is wrong.

    Newbies- don't become focused on LLCs or paralyzed into inaction. LLCs are a good idea when you can afford them and are ready. Talk to your attorney and accountant about when that point will be for you. If you are trying to house hack, you probably can't use them. House hacking is using the benefits of being a home owner to start your real estate business. If you are otherwise established in life and have a pool of money to invest, start out right.

    There are no absolutes in this discussion.

  • Real Estate Agent · Owasso, OK · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 400 votes
    11y

    I have resisted long enough. No, you don't need an LLC and the vast majority of investors will not benefit from one.

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