Do you need an LLC? Absolutely. There is No Debate About It.

Do you need an LLC? Absolutely. There is No Debate About It.

Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 722 posts · 1k+ votes

The LLC debate rages on here at BP. Rarely does a day pass without an investor asking whether they should use an LLC or not. Perhaps BP should have a whole forum just devoted to this question . . .

Having an LLC is a no-brainer. Real estate is a business, and if you are in business you should not be operating in your own name -- unless the law requires it, such as for certain professionals like lawyers and doctors who society feels should not have their professional liability limited. My knowledge is not exhaustive here, but I am unaware of any jurisdiction that requires you to own investment real estate in your own name.

People are confused because they get a lot of bad advice about LLCs -- what they can and cannot do. They are told -- wrongly in my view -- that they should not bother with LLCs because an LLC will not protect them from liability to a lender or because insurance does the same thing. I will expose the incorrect thinking below.

But first, let's discuss what an LLC actually is. A Limited Liability Company is a corporate form with a separate legal identity. As the name implies, it limits your liability to the value of the asset. It does not eliminate your liability, so when people say you should not bother with an LLC because it does not eliminate all liability, they are confusing the issue. An LLC provides important liability limitation and risk-management capability, and if you are in business you should be taking advantage.

It is true that lenders won't lend to an LLC with no history. If you are new, and the LLC does not have a proven cash flow, a lender will make you sign on the debt yourself. But you should still organize your business in a corporate form, like an LLC. Why? Because banks are not your only potential creditors. Who else is out there? Practically the entire world is a potential creditor. Tenants, vendors, guests of tenants, the mailman, UPS, the cable guy -- in other words, anyone who ever sells anything to the property or sets foot on it is a potential creditor. (Anyone who sets foot on the property is a potential creditor if they slip and fall on the property -- or if they claim they slipped and fell even if they did not.) If the property is owned by an LLC that you own, the LLC is the debtor. If you own the property directly, YOU are the debtor. If an LLC owns the property, the worst the creditor can do to you is take the property. If you own the property, and the property is not worth enough to satisfy the judgment, then the creditor will take the property AND THEN go after your personal assets -- that means your house, your car, your 401(k), your children's 529 plan, your baseball card collection, your monthly paycheck.

Insurance is another must, but it does not replace an LLC. If you have insurance, that's great. It will cover what's in the insurance contract, up to the coverage limit. But insurance does not cover it when you don't pay a vendor. And what if someone is injured on your property and the court awards more than the insurance coverage? If you have an LLC, they may try to go after your assets, but they won't be successful if you have run the business properly. If you own the property in your own name, then you should re-read the previous paragraph about your house, your car, your 401(k), etc.

A very important note about LLCs is, as I said above, that they are separate legal entities. To get LLC protection against creditors, you must respect the separate legal entity. You must IGNORE the advice that some real estate gurus give, which is to run a whole bunch of personal expenses through the LLC. THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO. Will it save you some taxes? Maybe, if you don't get audited. Will it destroy the limited liability protection and expose your personal assets to seizure by creditors? Absolutely.

The biggest complaint against LLCs is that they cost money. Yes, you need to file tax returns for them. Yes, you need to do proper accounting. All this is true. These are all costs of doing business. But, remember, this is a business. You are not in real estate for a hobby. This is where the big boys and girls play. If you are not willing to spend a couple hundred dollars a year on LLC costs, you probably should not be in this business at all. But the real question is: Would you rather have the couple hundred dollars extra each year or the peace of mind knowing that your and your family's personal assets are not exposed because you decided to buy an investment property? That choice is up to you, but to me the answer is obvious.

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Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
11y

I'm a young investor, and purchased a property via the "house-hacking" method back in November of 2014.  The property is under my name, and I rent out the other side to two wonderful tenants.

The work has been done Do-It -Yourself style, and I have gone a few months now successfully living rent free.  

Make no mistake about it, I consider this Duplex to be a business, and run it as such.  I manage the tenants with a separate email address and have a separate bank account for property related expenses.  I pay rent to the business and take money out of the business.

But the property is under my own name.

Reading the OP, I am committing a basic fail against common sense as a real estate investor. But I disagree completely. I had several immense advantages in putting this property under my own name that would have been forfeited were the property under an LLC:

1) I used FHA financing. Try putting down less than 5% on a property within an LLC, especially as a first-time buyer.

2) I am the occupant of the home.  I can rent to whoever I want, and for any reason whatsoever.  It's MY house, not a rental property, and the laws governing it are as such.

3) I had much better interest rates on my mortgage than the LLC would have had access to.

4) My mortgage interest is tax deductible.  In the first few years, where the bulk of my mortgage payments are comprised of interest, this is more advantageous than depreciation.

5) Assuming I live in the property for more than two years, and the property appreciates, I can sell for a tax-free capital gain.

The disadvantages are as follows:

1) Limited protection.  I'm 24 years old and this property is basically the grand total of my worldly assets.  I don't have much to protect.  I also have an umbrella insurance policy.  
This type of protection is good enough for millions of landlords with far more to lose than I. 

2) I'm obviously the owner of the property. I can't hide ownership behind an LLC. In my case, this advantage to the LLC is totally moot. The tenants live next door! I'm obviously the owner.

Conclusion:

Investing through an LLC would have been extremely expensive for me, setup and legal costs set aside. Furthermore, it would have delayed my first purchase significantly, and taken away subjective advantages in running my business as a personal asset.

I think that it is shallow to claim that having an LLC is a "no-brainer". I think that at the very least, my argument here shows that it is a debatable topic and that a reasonable person could conclude that there are indeed strong advantages to operating real estate assets under your own name.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    11y

    Newbies- don't become focused on LLCs or paralyzed into inaction. LLCs are a good idea when you can afford them and are ready. Talk to your attorney and accountant about when that point will be for you. If you are trying to house hack, you probably can't use them. House hacking is using the benefits of being a home owner to start your real estate business. If you are otherwise established in life and have a pool of money to invest, start out right.

    There are no absolutes in this discussion.

    While the rest of your post is great, thank you for the input, this is the section that I really enjoy.  Emphasis added. As they say there are only two absolutes in life, Death and Taxes.

  • Consultant · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2015 · 122 posts · 34 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Paul Choate:

    I am a lawyer and I recommend LLCs.

    Here are the arguments against them as I understand:'

    1. They don't work for asset protection-

    I met with a home builder yesterday to discuss filing bankruptcy. He has an LLC. He had 7 or 8 lawsuits over the past few years. Here is the mental calculation I have to go through- first, who is being sued? If it is the LLC, I can completely ignore it. That got rid of all of them except one between him and a business partner. They work. They end lawsuits. They are expensive to fight against.

    Can they be defeated? Yes. Everything can be done wrong if you try hard enough. Someone's poor management skills are not an argument against them. That is a reason to do a good job, which is a different argument.

    2. They are expensive or difficult to manage- 

    The OP said it best. If you are not willing to learn how business is done or can't afford it, maybe you should reconsider what you are doing. You should be able to set up your LLC for a few hundred dollars and the yearly fees are less than $100 in every state I know of. ($25 in Oklahoma.) Find out what the actual costs are. You will probably be pleasantly surprised.

    3. My attorney said I don't need one-

    There are some bad attorneys out there and they give bad advice. Talk to three attorneys who actually litigate civil cases and see what they say. Here is one for free- I am a licensed attorney in the state of Oklahoma. I primarily practice under the federal bankruptcy code. I spend all day dealing with individuals who had financial problems in life. Legal entities should be properly used by anyone operating a business.

    4. Person X doesn't use them and he/she is fine-

    Yeah for you! Seriously, that means you have personally figured out how to do things right and nothing very bad has ever happened to you. That is awesome for you. That is even statistically correct for the majority of individuals out there. When I was in Law School, my wills and trust professor started our class out by saying she did not have a will. Sounds stupid right? Well here is the deal. Our laws are set up to do what most of us want. In the case of the will, my professor understood that the law would do what she wanted anyway because she was the norm. Most of us don't have life shattering problems in our real estate businesses and if you ignore me, you will probably be fine too. Your individual experiences are one data point. That is a very small data set. The people who had real problems are probably not on a website touting their experiences to the world.

    5. I can't get a loan/ buy a house in an LLC-

    I have two houses that are not in my LLCs. One is my first home which I have a mortgage on and I turned into a rental. It was how I started out and why I got that loan. House hacking indicates you are finding a loophole in the system to get started. It is not how you should base your business structure. My second one was my first fixer and I was too lazy to get my business structured correctly. It has been a problem ever since. Set up your structure for what you want to be and you will grow into it. Don't waste time and money or become paralyzed by it. It should be a very small part of the process along the way. 

    6. I don't need it because I have insurance and I don't do anything wrong-

    This is an extension of #4. Be fully insured. Do a great job running your properties. LLC's are not substitutes for these things. They are an additional layer. Every lawsuit involves two people who think they are right and every time one of them is wrong.

    Newbies- don't become focused on LLCs or paralyzed into inaction. LLCs are a good idea when you can afford them and are ready. Talk to your attorney and accountant about when that point will be for you. If you are trying to house hack, you probably can't use them. House hacking is using the benefits of being a home owner to start your real estate business. If you are otherwise established in life and have a pool of money to invest, start out right.

    There are no absolutes in this discussion.

    Great advice, and well said.

  • Rental Property Investor · Auburn, AL · Member since 2015 · 227 posts · 80 votes
    11y

    I am just getting started and am arranging my finances to purchase my first property. I'm leaning towards getting an LLC (already drafted the Operating Agreement), and putting any properties I obtain for rental purposes in a trust with the LLC as the beneficiary. I imagine I would put any property for flipping purposes directly in the LLC without being in a trust.

    There are a few things I need to figure out before I do this. I have about 32K in liquid funds. I have also applied to get pre-approved for a loan (mortgage?) through a local bank to use in assisting with the purchase of my first property. Should I go ahead and set up the LLC, and put my 32K in an LLC bank account?

    (1) Would that affect the pre-approval of the loan if I put those funds in the LLC.

    (2) I have a little over a week before the auction of a SFH that I'm interested in bidding for. Would it make sense to bid through the LLC? Can I even get the LLC recorded and in place in a week? (unlikely)

    It has actually helped me organize my thoughts by putting them down in this manner. I think my next step should be getting with a real estate attorney to get the LLC started. If anyone has any ideas that could be helpful, I would appreciate hearing them!

  • Solo 401k Expert · Anaheim Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 18k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Rod F.:

    Thomas the llc paid cash for house, including all rehab repairs. the rents collected are the 18 to 20 % cash returned to the IRA, annually. don't even consider the appreciation in my return figure. actually after rehab. there was an approximately 60% increase in market value. (appraised). the 18 to 20% is rents less taxes and insurance. everything goes back to ira for future investments. I fixed everything , no callbacks. only call I had this year on that house was a light fixture not working turned out to be light bulb.

    I could not buy a property i currently owned. title is in IRA, owned by a trust. I act as manager and hold checkbook. every transaction has to have transparency. nothing gets charged to account except business transactions. not even a coke or gallon of gas. It has it's own bank account, and credit accounts. 

    House two is being rehabbed now, trying to decide on flipping or holding. again cash transaction.

    Rod, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying that the trust which is owned by your IRA has a credit card?

    It is very unlikely that any credit issuer would offer a credit to a trust (or an IRA) itself without requiring your personal guarantee. However, providing a personal guarantee to an IRA or a 401k is prohibited and your account may be deemed disqualified.

    I had number of clients come to me asking this question. After we establish their plans and they open a bank account, they would get an offer from the bank for a credit card. And always it was that they as individuals would have to provide a personal guarantee. This would be considered a 'prohibited transaction'. 

  • Solo 401k Expert · Anaheim Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 18k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Thomas Coburn:

    Now it makes 18 to 20% return in tax deferred income. At least I know how to make money on a house. it's not like the guy calling me telling me we need to move this investment into that investment so he can bleed a commission out of my account. house one paid for house two in three years. the two houses should buy house three in two years. all inside the IRA. Call me crazy, but my plan is to take some of the rental income as disbursements when I retire and never touch the assets.

     Very interesting post. Thank you. When you write that you're getting a "18 to 20% return", what do you mean? Is this appreciation? Increase in the market? Just curious the return is driving by the market/economy or is static/based on rents paying down principal.

    I'm curious because I have money sitting in a cash retirement account. Not even making 1%. Been debating about pulling it all out and using as more investment capital. Then I've heard of scenarios like yours.

    Also... do you know if I can place an existing property I own into my retirement account?

    Thomas, if you personally own an investment property - it can not be placed into a retirement account. Self-directed IRA or 401k can be funded in one of the following ways:

    1) Transfer or a rollover from another qualified retirement plan.

    2) Make new contribution. Unfortunately traditional and Roth IRA contributions are only $5,500 per year so it would be difficult to do some serious investing with that amount. If you are self-employed or a small business owner however, you can start Individual (also known as Owner-only) 401k and contribute as much as $53,000 per year! With this amount you have a lot more investment choices to self-directed your account.

    Hope this helps.

  • Chester, NH · Member since 2014 · 53 posts · 0 votes
    11y
    Have any of you (or anyone) had trouble getting a conventional mortgage when using an LLC to buy a property?
  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    11y

    @Helen Kirk and @Account Closed I think you will find significant resistance from your lender(s) purchasing a single-family home in your LLC. Ask your lender and please update what you find. Before putting $32K into an LLC and then having to take it out (creating potential tax/co-mingling issues), make a phone call!

    Go ahead and call your insurance carrier as well and report what you find. Residential hazard insurers (and private auto insurers) do not like insuring businesses. 

    Better to discover consequences of what will happen before it happens, right? Pick up the phone and please post what you find for the benefit of all.  Thanks!

  • Investor · Long Beach, CA · Member since 2014 · 56 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    If you manage your property by yourself, you will still be named in your lawsuit whether you have an LLC or not.

  • Yorba Linda, CA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 1 vote
    11y

    in California they don't like LLCs it costs $800.00 a year in state fees to have one. Are their any less expensive and safe ways to structure an entity here?

  • Financial Advisor · Glendora, CA · Member since 2015 · 209 posts · 94 votes
    11y

    Jonathan,

    I hear your arguments about the necessity of forming a LLC. However I don't know if its your own agenda or what to scare people into calling you to start a LLC for them. I don't know maybe its something thats necessary. However, since you're an attorney and probably have access to case studies. Please site specific cases in which having a LLC has actually shown to be beneficial. I ask that you site case studies from the Northridge Earthquake in which several apartment complexes were destroyed and killed several people. I'd like to see what lawsuits arose from those situations. Until then, I am still skeptical. Please prove me wrong.

    Thanks

    Yoochul

  • Investor · Lake Zurich, IL · Member since 2012 · 53 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    I'll be the 1st to admit I don't know all the legal protections provided by a LLC in my state but to me it's like getting a car alarm. If there are 2 cars on the street one with an alarm and one without, the simpler option for a crook is to break into the car without the alarm. It has a lower risk threshold relative to the car with the alarm. Same with a tenant looking to sue. If the tenant or lawyer can get all of the necessary asset information easily, the decision to sue or not is easier. However, if it's difficult to get a full accounting of the owner/landlord's assets then my guess is that the chances of a lawsuit are generally expected to be lower. Let's face it, will there be some tenants that will sue regardless because they believe they have been wronged? Yes! Will some lawyers take on cases with a slim chance of prevailing? Yes! There doesn't have to be a rhyme of reason, it just happens. I care less about "piercing the viel," the DoS clause, etc due to my personal situation.  As long as you can erect hurdles that make it harder for someone to decide to sue, that's really the bottom line.  It won't offer all the protection but at least you've tried.  Similarly, insurance is also a type of protection.  Corporate structures and Insurance both serve a purpose, to protect the individual.  

    Peace :)

  • Rental Property Investor · SF Bay Area, CA · Member since 2014 · 352 posts · 543 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Hayman:

    in California they don't like LLCs it costs $800.00 a year in state fees to have one. Are their any less expensive and safe ways to structure an entity here?

    Even if you have an LLC outside of California but live in California you will be charged $800 for EACH LLC you have including each and every out of state LLCs.

    Unless you are protecting millions of dollars in assets, it makes no sense for the average investor (who lives in California).

  • Yorba Linda, CA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 1 vote
    11y

    how does California collect on an LLCs not doing buisness in California? I was thinking about setting up an LLCs in Arizona and never having the Arizona LLCs doing anything in California . Are you saying California can still collect $800 for the Arizona LLCs?

  • Specialist · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 817 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Hayman:

    how does California collect on an LLCs not doing buisness in California? I was thinking about setting up an LLCs in Arizona and never having the Arizona LLCs doing anything in California . Are you saying California can still collect $800 for the Arizona LLCs?

     Yes. Your schedule-k's are going to reflect on your state income taxes.

  • Yorba Linda, CA · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 1 vote
    11y

    schedule k income is state income ,California will charge $800 fee for an LLCs filing here every year someone else said that California would charge a filing fee for any LLCs a California resident had in another state? How could you set up a structure that would avoid that fee? It's almost like California wants to make it too exspensive to afford the cost of an LLCs and its protections.

  • Information Systems and Cyber Security Manager – US ARMY · Augusta, GA · Member since 2015 · 128 posts · 30 votes
    11y

    WOW!  lots of great info and arguments. I definitely will be talking to lawyer/accountant to figure out what needs to be in place.  From my perspective as someone who has absolutely no clue what is going on I will say this.  biggerpockets.com/show109 I have listened to it at least 5 times.  Its all about asset protection.  So as of now I can only go off of common sense when it comes to all of this.  I think the bottom line for me is this... wealthy people don't own property and assets, wealth people manage property and assets.  I am not wealth but I want to be some day.  Insurance is a no brainier for me.  I have tons of it personally and professionally.  If and when I die someone is going to be financially set (my children).  I like to try and tie the two things together in order to make some kind of sense out of it.  As I research wills, trusts, death gratuity, etc... I find there is a lot of crap involved in probate.  I see this as a red tape of sorts where people have to go through litigation and court processes and city processes and county processes just to go through a will that says everything belongs to so and so.  I do not want to put my family through all of this when I die.  I want them to get all of the stuff and be done with it.  From what I can find putting control of all the assets in a trust and then a carry over will for the remaining questionable stuff (just a blanket whatever is not covered in the trust already should go to ______).  All of this being said I have seen some pretty ugly battles in and out of courts and through litigation over estates and such.  So, starting with the end in mind and working my way back to the starting point I want to completely protect all of my stuff no matter how little the value of it from as much as possible.  Insurance protects specific things.  People, cars, boats, houses, rental properties, etc.  Insurance companies jobs are to collect premiums and avoid payouts or minimize them as much as possible.  I am pretty sure insurance companies do not handle court proceedings but I could be wrong.  Asset protection is my key goal when trying to build wealth.  As many layers as I can put in I am going to do so.  I can see justifying spending a couple thousand to set up proper business entity just so that it will for sure separate my personal liability vs my income cashflow producing business liability.  I think it makes total sense to put every single property under some sort of business entity.  Furthermore I think it is even smarter to put the holding of assets inside of a trust (buy and hold is where I am coming from with this discussion).  I want nothing to be directly in my name on the business side.  If someone wants to sue my company cool...  I will make damn sure that they are only suing that one particular company and not able to peek into my personal assets whether house or boat or car or whatever.  Ambiguity is not to avoid anything or to try to be non negligible.  It is to protect your family and your personal stuff.  If I own Apple and some Apple product blows up in someones hand... that person could come directly to me as the owner and try to take everything I have if the business protections are not set in place as they should be.  No amount of insurance is going to change that fact.A business is a business is a business.  I have seen plenty of businesses in my own family be not protected and it is a scary place to be in when at any moment someone can come in and take everything out from under you...and then take all of your personal assets as well. Not to make this an hour long post but I will say this.  Mother nature laughs last.  Mother nature has not read the declaration of independence or the bill of rights.  She does not care what protection you have or dont have.  If you dont do due diligence and take care of yourself and your stuff, nobody else will. A business is a business no matter how small or large.  It should be run as such.

  • Information Systems and Cyber Security Manager – US ARMY · Augusta, GA · Member since 2015 · 128 posts · 30 votes
    11y

    One other thing I would like to add that I didn't above... I am pretty sure signing for monies toward a property and actually deeding or putting that property under a trust or LLC are two separate animals. The money is not a causation of the property. Likewise the property is not directly connected to the money. The money is just the money (loan or otherwise). Personally signing for the money does not tie you directly to personally signing for the liability of the property or business. Your sister can sign the loan and the property can be put in your name right? or am I totally off base with this? Thanks again for a GREAT thread!!!

  • Real Estate Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 12 votes
    11y
    @Dmitriy Fomichenko:
    2) Make new contribution. Unfortunately traditional and Roth IRA contributions are only $5,500 per year so it would be difficult to do some serious investing with that amount. If you are self-employed or a small business owner however, you can start Individual (also known as Owner-only) 401k and contribute as much as $53,000 per year! With this amount you have a lot more investment choices to self-directed your account.

    Dmitry - Your answer helps A LOT. Thank you.

    We are self-employed. Our business attorney set us up with SIMPLE IRA's about 7 years ago. So, my wife and I are both contributing whatever the maximum is. I think it's about $12K/year each.

    HOWEVER... a few of my mentors have personally drained all of their retirement accounts. They've paid the gains just to be done with them, and then used the cash to invest in real estate, betting on themselves rather than being tied to the stock market. 

    I've seriously been considering this. I'd be very interested in hearing your investing opinion on this.

    Thanks a lot.

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Chris Simmons thanks for that extensive explanation and your final ruling on the value of LLC's . Considering the experience and in-depth logic layed out by the OP versus your non-argument I'm going to go with the OP - not surprisingly.

    @Jay C.  you said "

    You asked..what if? Nothing happens if you do have good coverage above and beyond with a cheap umbrella policy. Your entire page long argument becomes moot."

    Actually his argument is relevant and your terse point is suspect. Do you have experience actually employing an umbrella policy or trying it in court or know anyone who has? What is your opinion based on, other then what the insurance salesman told you? I think your idealization is likely unconnected to reality. As the OP has stated in a previous thread, he actually has experience trying Umbrella claims as well as LLC's in court , and now here is the shocker Jay - insurance companies try to weasel out of paying multimillion dollar claims on umbrella policy's much as they can. Considering how cheap umbrella policies are I think that makes sense.

    Finally no one is advocating not getting an umbrella policy as a minimum, this isn't mutually exclusive to a LLC, everyone should have a umbrella policy as a minimum and some people, with assets to protect, also should have a LLC. Outside of guru seminars I don't think anyone is advocating LLC's for people without assets to protect.

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y

    One other thing that I forget to mention about my litigation was.  The attorneys(2) that represented me . I directly asked them what could I do to protect my personal assets. Their reply was "I don't know".  I think I would be protecting  them from them too. 

    After some thought and Consideration. I went to another town about 50 miles away, and hired a third attorney. Was hired to set up wills, and discuss my asset protection choices. 

    I did everything he told me to do. as far as personal assets. My target went away.

    The question that I was the most concerned about was the  Properties that I Had in a partnership LLc.

    What he told me was it would be very unlikely they would go after the llc. but if for some reason they did. and If they did get a judgment against my part of the llc.   That I wouldn't have to pay it until I sold the property. 

     The two things that went through my mind was first. heck I wasn't ever planning on selling them anyway. 

    But the one thing that I didn't want to do was work the next 20 years (average amortization.)  building up net worth for someone else.   And I would be as long as they kept the judgment filed.

    That's when the ideas of multiple llc's was born in my investment portfolio. Judgment against one is not judgment against all.

    llcs are not for everyone, you might owe millions, but every month you build equity. 

    EQUITY FOR SOMEONE !!!

  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 308 posts · 170 votes
    11y

    @Steve B.

    Oh my........another long winded post just like the OP. If things were as bad as you suggest REI would wither and die a sudden death. .....reality is it hasn't and wont. In your world we should cower at the great power the attorneys and courts can bring.....lol. Having grown up with lawyers your layin it on a bit thick what they can and cannot do but by all means keep in your world if it pleases you. . To me your post sound like your insurance company weaseled you out of your Kenwood CD player out of your Chevy Cobalt and your still unhappy about. Oh well no fixing that past. Anyway...your hold onto your beliefs....I can care less. When some goof gets on here with proclamations I have to ask........Brandon.......Josh...where is that ignore button guys ??? Said another way..feel free to sue me. I have great insurance that can withstand any puny assault you or any tenant can bring? Clear....Good.

  • Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Hayman:

    schedule k income is state income ,California will charge $800 fee for an LLCs filing here every year someone else said that California would charge a filing fee for any LLCs a California resident had in another state? How could you set up a structure that would avoid that fee? It's almost like California wants to make it too exspensive to afford the cost of an LLCs and its protections.

    Time to move to another state,   ;] 

  • Real Estate Agent · Owasso, OK · Member since 2014 · 517 posts · 400 votes
    11y

    @Steve B.

    This is a worn out subject that I have detailed extensively in prior posts.  If you are curious, you can take the time to research them.  

    I sincerely hope you are pleased with your current setup.  

  • Solo 401k Expert · Anaheim Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 18k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Thomas Coburn:
    @Dmitriy Fomichenko:
    2) Make new contribution. Unfortunately traditional and Roth IRA contributions are only $5,500 per year so it would be difficult to do some serious investing with that amount. If you are self-employed or a small business owner however, you can start Individual (also known as Owner-only) 401k and contribute as much as $53,000 per year! With this amount you have a lot more investment choices to self-directed your account.

    Dmitry - Your answer helps A LOT. Thank you.

    We are self-employed. Our business attorney set us up with SIMPLE IRA's about 7 years ago. So, my wife and I are both contributing whatever the maximum is. I think it's about $12K/year each.

    HOWEVER... a few of my mentors have personally drained all of their retirement accounts. They've paid the gains just to be done with them, and then used the cash to invest in real estate, betting on themselves rather than being tied to the stock market. 

    I've seriously been considering this. I'd be very interested in hearing your investing opinion on this.

    Thomas, did I understand you correctly: are you saying that some of your mentors took early distributions from their retirement accounts, paid taxes and penalties and used what's left to invest in real estate?

    In my opinion this is a poor financial choice for most people. Taxes and penalties could wipe out 35-50% of your retirement savings if you take early distribution. 

    I agree that investing in the stock market that most of us have no control over is not a good choice, but that is where self-directed IRA or Solo 401k comes in. It allows you to have total control over investment choices and gives you the ability to invest in something that you understand and have more control over (real estate, trust deeds, tax liens, private lending, private businesses, etc).

  • Professional · Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Essentially, it is important to diversify your retirement portfolio. I invest my self-directed IRA in 10% precious metals, 30% equities, 40% real estate and trust deeds, and 20% cash and bonds.

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