Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
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Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:
Whatever the labeling, from landlords POV, the quality of a potential tenant flows from the quality of their credit, income, assets, recourse and character. This can’t be assessed without a completed application. To remain here without status and fill out an application/lease, which means the applicant intents to stay for the term, means at least 3 of 5 of these take a major hit.
Well... since I know landlords that have rented hundreds of homes and sold hundreds of homes to people in the country illegally, I can say that as a group they have a better tenant reputation than US citizens.
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
And they’re free to do it, God bless America!
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Andrew Golub:
None of this should be construed as legal advice. Once you are aware of it, you are responsible for it. Ask an attorney, only he can give you the correct advice. If he is not a legitimate person in the states, how can he enter into a contract?
The standard for entering into a contract is being of sound mind and not a minor. What is a legitimate person ?
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:
No one brought up stripping immigrants of their status for lying in their immigration process, this link has nothing to do with the discussion.
The simple truth is both things are true, one can rent to an illegal alien if they like, and, illegial aliens by definition can’t live any length of time here without break many other laws. People like me can’t participate in that, that’s all, really not that hard to understand.
The people on my side of this argument understand people like you perfectly but there are a bunch of things you don't understand including how what the supreme court said in that judgement about lying and speeding tickets relates to what you said about those same things. Let's enumerate some others.
There is no statutory requirement for a landlord to "police" an applicants immigrant status. Firstly a landlord is not equipped to do that, so they resort to some crude measure like ssn's but as we have seen an ssn or not is not determinative either way.
Because there is no statutory requirement you end up with a situation where a landlord doing this is stipulating things that reflect their own prejudices in the policies that they present to the public.
That is what gets you into trouble.
If you say it's because it's of some legal infraction then why have you chosen that one rather than others (e.g adulterers are criminalized in many states why not them).
What you don't understand is that this puts you in an analagous position and at the same legal risk as the people who refuse to bake cakes for LGBTQ customers.
In their case it is direct discrimination in your case it is indirect. In their case it is Public Accommodations Discrimination - in your case it is the Fair Housing Act. In their case they were forced to resort to a freedom of expression defense - in your case you won't be able to do that.
"Illegal immigrants are not a protected class" is not going to help you because they are not going to charge you with direct discrimination. Your problem is going to be that people in protected classes will say that they are disproportionately disadvantaged by a policy of yours that has no statutory basis.
Nobody is telling you how to run your rentals - we are warning others who might read and agree with you of the legal jeopardy they are being exposed to.
The law has determined that a Sheriff in Arizona can't do it with a badge why do you think the law is going to let a landlord do it with a house.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Michaela G. is correct that just being in the US without citizenship or a visa is a civil matter. For example, if you legally entered the country on vacation and never left, that would be a civil matter. If you are caught, you are subject to deportation. If you crawled under the fence on the border, that would be a criminal action. If you used another persons social security number to get a job, that would be a criminal action.
The discussion about labeling people illegal versus undocumented is immaterial. It is really about risk for the landlord. The problem for a landlord is how can a tenant in this situation legally hold a job?
You cannot discriminate against an applicant based on their source of income. Come on you know that.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Michaela G. is correct that just being in the US without citizenship or a visa is a civil matter. For example, if you legally entered the country on vacation and never left, that would be a civil matter. If you are caught, you are subject to deportation. If you crawled under the fence on the border, that would be a criminal action. If you used another persons social security number to get a job, that would be a criminal action.
The discussion about labeling people illegal versus undocumented is immaterial. It is really about risk for the landlord. The problem for a landlord is how can a tenant in this situation legally hold a job?
You cannot discriminate against an applicant based on their source of income. Come on you know that.
And any immigrant can legally start their own llc and be their own boss and work as a sub-contractor. No law against that
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Michaela G. is correct that just being in the US without citizenship or a visa is a civil matter. For example, if you legally entered the country on vacation and never left, that would be a civil matter. If you are caught, you are subject to deportation. If you crawled under the fence on the border, that would be a criminal action. If you used another persons social security number to get a job, that would be a criminal action.
The discussion about labeling people illegal versus undocumented is immaterial. It is really about risk for the landlord. The problem for a landlord is how can a tenant in this situation legally hold a job?
You cannot discriminate against an applicant based on their source of income. Come on you know that.
That is not what I said, but yes you can deny based on source of income. People do it all the time by not taking Section 8. I could refuse to rent to police officers, provided I denied all police officers regardless of protected class.
You need to educate yourself on federal fair housing laws. Here is a good guide from NOLO:
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
@Michaela G. there may be no law explicitly preventing LLC ownership or advertising yourself as a sub-contractor, but it violates federal law to hire an "unauthorized alien". It is also illegal to hire a sub-contractor that is an unauthorized alien.
You can be subject to civil penalties, such as a fine per occurrence or criminal action if the company or individual has a pattern or practice of employing unauthorized aliens.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
https://www.alipac.us/f12/illegal-immigrant-indepe...
I think that is still good advice.
It is certainly how the biggest home construction companies in the country do business.
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
https://www.alipac.us/f12/illegal-immigrant-indepe...
I think that is still good advice.
It is certainly how the biggest home construction companies in the country do business.
Hiring subcontractors that are illegal aliens is also against the law. It states that specifically in the law - there is no exemption. There was a high profile case where Walmart got fined $11 million dollars for doing this in 2004. Companies are regularly caught doing this. I would dispute that most big companies are doing this. Certainly any publicly traded company knows better than to violate the law. Small companies are more likely to violate the law. You also see it a lot with individuals hiring house cleaners, gardeners or nannies. In addition to being illegal, it is a major source of tax evasion. That is why the federal government takes a serious interest in this.
(4)Use of labor through contract
For purposes of this section, a person or other entity who uses a contract, subcontract, or exchange, entered into, renegotiated, or extended after November 6, 1986, to obtain the labor of an alien in the United States knowing that the alien is an unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3)) with respect to performing such labor, shall be considered to have hired the alien for employment in the United States in violation of paragraph (1)(A).
Full text of the federal law:
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
Most transgressions of law, landlord discrimination & aliens without status commiting other offenses, people falling asleep with your shoes still on in North Dakota, never see the light of day. It’s fashionable for some laws to be enforced more of less at various times than others, I’m sure everyone tries as hard as they can to be lawful.
Just because a law is not enforced doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It’s not easy to abide by every law, it might even be impossible when compliance with some laws encourages breaking others.
https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1907-title-8-usc-1324a-offenses
- Fairway, KS · Member since 2018 · 82 posts · 28 votes8y
My friend who does my screening professionally said he does not have that question on his application however if they had a visa or not would be pertinent to them being able to complete the lease term.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes8y
Ive had illegal immigrant tenants, and they always paid on time, and always paid in cash. Whether someone is legal or illegal as a barometer for being a good tenant is probably about as useful as using the color of their shirt as a barometer.
District Invest Group546 Reviews - Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 24 votes8y
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
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- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Joe Splitrock The courts have ruled against local ordinances that banned renting to illegal immigrants. The City of Farmers Branch spent more than $210 per resident to fight a case for seven years trying to make it against a city ordinance to rent to illegal immigrants. State laws would have the problem.
That $210 did not include the millions requested for the winning side's legal expenses.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
So if you rent to a tax evader, drug dealer or shoplifter and they get caught you think they are going to send you rent from jail?
What qualifies you as a landlord to determine whether someone is a legal resident or not. There are courts for that.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
So you deny someone because you think they are an illegal alien (not a protected class).
It turns out you were wrong, then you look and find out that the person you denied ticks every protected class in the book, female , Latino with 3 kids and qualifies by income.
What then.
Why would you put yourself at such risk.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.