Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
Most Popular Reply
Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Account Closed Most people do not ask if people are in the country legally on the application. So what lie are you talking about?
If you withhold information on a 1003 Loan Application it is fraud by deceit (a lie) and actually a Federal Crime. If you withhold exculpatory evidence in a court case it is deceit (a lie), if an illegal doesn't tell you he can be deported it is withholding information, it is deceit, a lie. If you don't tell your girlfriend you cheated on her, it is deceit, a lie. Live life the way you will, but there *are* consequences and if one's attitude is "a little lie" won't hurt, that makes for very poor renters, very poor partners (business or relationship) and raises all sorts of other questions about you.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:
@Account Closed
The claim would get your through the door and past a motion to dismiss. It might not survive a motion for summary judgment, but thats after a lot of litigation and discovery.
So, does Illegal immigration status exists as a protected class? NO!
Does that mean you will be able to avoid a law suite by discrimination against illegal immigrants, or by asking for SS No and then denying their application if not provided? NO!
You don’t need to like the law, or agree with the law, or politics or whatever. Just learn how to work within the parameters of the law.
A good creative lawyer would simply file a disparage impact claim that your application and policy create a disparate impact on them due to their NATIONALITY.
So, just don’t discriminate and set up non-discriminatory screening practices and policies. Then you are good to go. And for those of you who say to just ask for a social security No and then not rent to them if they refuse. That would not work in states like Oregon for the above reason. It would be classified as grounds for disparate impact discrimination due to national origin.
Well again what you say is accurate but I disagree with your emphasis and here is why.
See 6 - para 2.
http://www.equalhousing.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
"HUD will investigate complaints alleging that a landlord inquired into a person’s immigration status or citizenship to see whether national origin discrimination may have occurred."
Note the imperative language. HUD WILL investigate. That's suggests it's a red flag to them.
It's not certain, but there is every chance that process could lead to a finding against a landlord that won't be disturbed on appeal.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:
@Account Closed
The claim would get your through the door and past a motion to dismiss. It might not survive a motion for summary judgment, but thats after a lot of litigation and discovery.
So, does Illegal immigration status exists as a protected class? NO!
Does that mean you will be able to avoid a law suite by discrimination against illegal immigrants, or by asking for SS No and then denying their application if not provided? NO!
You don’t need to like the law, or agree with the law, or politics or whatever. Just learn how to work within the parameters of the law.
A good creative lawyer would simply file a disparage impact claim that your application and policy create a disparate impact on them due to their NATIONALITY.
So, just don’t discriminate and set up non-discriminatory screening practices and policies. Then you are good to go. And for those of you who say to just ask for a social security No and then not rent to them if they refuse. That would not work in states like Oregon for the above reason. It would be classified as grounds for disparate impact discrimination due to national origin.
I think all of that changes over the next year or two and there will be Federal action addressing the issue. For better or for worse, there is change in the wind.
Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen Slams Federal Judge’s ‘Offensive’ Comments, Declares DACA Unconstitutionalby Ken Klukowski15 Jan 2018Washington, DC1,263
WASHINGTON, DC – Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen on Sunday criticized a federal judge’s order reinstating DACA as offensive for suggesting that ending DACA is racist. She went on to declare DACA unconstitutional, and unapologetically asserted that her oath of office is to follow the U.S. Constitution.
- Realtor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2017 · 408 posts · 361 votes8y
Pretty astonishing.
The level of immaturity from so many adults. Gotta love lightning rod titles and pitch fork topics.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Ben joins the discussion claiming to have all the answers, even chastising the group for wasting his time.
This is exactly the kind of bickering I was referencing. Why do you have the need to negatively lash out like that?
"He cites a NY Supreme Court decision that isn't on point, refers us to a Pennsylvania housing website, then quotes some other irrelevant stuff (private clubs being my favorite)... and in so doing guarantees several more pages of bickering."
The original poster was asking if it is even possible to rent to illegal immigrants, which this court case (one of many) confirms it is legally possible. The Supremacy Clause states that only the federal government can regulate these immigration related items, and since the court found that there were no federal laws being broken by renting to illegals, the fact that it comes from the NY Supreme Court or from a Pennsylvania website is completely irrelevant. For further research you can also look up Freemont NE, Hazelton PA, Farmers Branch TX, Alabama H.B. 56 or any of the other instances of places attempting their own laws which have all failed. The Supreme Court has not formally ruled on this, except in their decline to review such cases as recently as 2014.
Private clubs were included for the sake of completeness in regards to exceptions to Fair Housing laws regarding discrimination, if you don't find it useful then feel free to ignore it! However I would argue that the sections I highlighted could be very useful to the overwhelming majority of BP readers, as the majority of readers probably only have 1-3 SFR units or are house hacking a multi unit in which case chances are very high that it's the wild west and that you can discriminate for absolutely any reason you want. While I don't condone discrimination in general, these exceptions can be useful in a variety of situations such as when you have a no pets policy and a prospective tenant insists that his enormous dog is an emotional support animal.
@Mike S. What makes you think that I don't care if people lie to me or not? I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
Obvious fact that is worth repeating.
I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Ben joins the discussion claiming to have all the answers, even chastising the group for wasting his time.
This is exactly the kind of bickering I was referencing. Why do you have the need to negatively lash out like that?
"He cites a NY Supreme Court decision that isn't on point, refers us to a Pennsylvania housing website, then quotes some other irrelevant stuff (private clubs being my favorite)... and in so doing guarantees several more pages of bickering."
The original poster was asking if it is even possible to rent to illegal immigrants, which this court case (one of many) confirms it is legally possible. The Supremacy Clause states that only the federal government can regulate these immigration related items, and since the court found that there were no federal laws being broken by renting to illegals, the fact that it comes from the NY Supreme Court or from a Pennsylvania website is completely irrelevant. For further research you can also look up Freemont NE, Hazelton PA, Farmers Branch TX, Alabama H.B. 56 or any of the other instances of places attempting their own laws which have all failed. The Supreme Court has not formally ruled on this, except in their decline to review such cases as recently as 2014.
Private clubs were included for the sake of completeness in regards to exceptions to Fair Housing laws regarding discrimination, if you don't find it useful then feel free to ignore it! However I would argue that the sections I highlighted could be very useful to the overwhelming majority of BP readers, as the majority of readers probably only have 1-3 SFR units or are house hacking a multi unit in which case chances are very high that it's the wild west and that you can discriminate for absolutely any reason you want. While I don't condone discrimination in general, these exceptions can be useful in a variety of situations such as when you have a no pets policy and a prospective tenant insists that his enormous dog is an emotional support animal.
@Mike S. What makes you think that I don't care if people lie to me or not? I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
Obvious fact that is worth repeating.
I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
The obvious question is "Are you here legally" @lhe O?
If you have illegals as renters, are you prepared to have them disappear into the night and not pay rent? Once they are deported, will they send you checks for the rent they agreed to? Don't bank on it. If you didn't know they were deportable will you be so self righteous? We shall see.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Ben joins the discussion claiming to have all the answers, even chastising the group for wasting his time.
This is exactly the kind of bickering I was referencing. Why do you have the need to negatively lash out like that?
"He cites a NY Supreme Court decision that isn't on point, refers us to a Pennsylvania housing website, then quotes some other irrelevant stuff (private clubs being my favorite)... and in so doing guarantees several more pages of bickering."
The original poster was asking if it is even possible to rent to illegal immigrants, which this court case (one of many) confirms it is legally possible. The Supremacy Clause states that only the federal government can regulate these immigration related items, and since the court found that there were no federal laws being broken by renting to illegals, the fact that it comes from the NY Supreme Court or from a Pennsylvania website is completely irrelevant. For further research you can also look up Freemont NE, Hazelton PA, Farmers Branch TX, Alabama H.B. 56 or any of the other instances of places attempting their own laws which have all failed. The Supreme Court has not formally ruled on this, except in their decline to review such cases as recently as 2014.
Private clubs were included for the sake of completeness in regards to exceptions to Fair Housing laws regarding discrimination, if you don't find it useful then feel free to ignore it! However I would argue that the sections I highlighted could be very useful to the overwhelming majority of BP readers, as the majority of readers probably only have 1-3 SFR units or are house hacking a multi unit in which case chances are very high that it's the wild west and that you can discriminate for absolutely any reason you want. While I don't condone discrimination in general, these exceptions can be useful in a variety of situations such as when you have a no pets policy and a prospective tenant insists that his enormous dog is an emotional support animal.
@Mike S. What makes you think that I don't care if people lie to me or not? I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
Obvious fact that is worth repeating.
I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
The obvious question is "Are you here legally" @lhe O?
If you have illegals as renters, are you prepared to have them disappear into the night and not pay rent? Once they are deported, will they send you checks for the rent they agreed to? Don't bank on it. If you didn't know they were deportable will you be so self righteous? We shall see.
You are not embarassed to ask me questions that reveal the mentality of a pitchfork bearer.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Looks like you're not familiar with California bill AB 291 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextC...
Which states very clearly, that a landlord DOES NOT deserve to know if a potential renter is her without proper status. You are NOT allowed to ask. You are NOT allowed to threaten with the status. You are NOT allowed to disclose their status, if you happen to know it.
Very interesting. Please present us with your California Bar # since you are giving legal advice in a state in which you do not live. Where did you go to law school? When did you pass the Calif. Bar? Or, *any* Bar for that matter? As a landlord or as an illegal, if I rely on your legal advice will you represent me in court or take responsibility for your lack of awareness of immigration law and/or case law?
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Looks like you're not familiar with California bill AB 291 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextC...
Which states very clearly, that a landlord DOES NOT deserve to know if a potential renter is her without proper status. You are NOT allowed to ask. You are NOT allowed to threaten with the status. You are NOT allowed to disclose their status, if you happen to know it.
Very interesting. Please present us with your California Bar # since you are giving legal advice in a state in which you do not live. Where did you go to law school? When did you pass the Calif. Bar? Or, *any* Bar for that matter? As a landlord or as an illegal, if I rely on your legal advice will you represent me in court or take responsibility for your lack of awareness of immigration law and/or case law?
The thing is neither you ror Mr Gimer are interested in the law because when it is cited to you basically both revert to "political" dog whistles.
Both of you have been indulged on this thread far too long and have been using it for something far more nasty.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Very interesting. Please present us with your California Bar # since you are giving legal advice in a state in which you do not live. Where did you go to law school? When did you pass the Calif. Bar? Or, *any* Bar for that matter? As a landlord or as an illegal, if I rely on your legal advice will you represent me in court or take responsibility for your lack of awareness of immigration law and/or case law?
Hm.....so, you're saying that I have to be a licensed attorney to give a link to a legal Assembly bill or it loses validity? And as an undocumented immigrant myself, I bet I've dealt with more immigration law than you can even imagine. Oh....and, if you paid any attention to my posts, which you obviously havent, then you'd know that I frequently move back and forth between California and Georgia.
Would it make a different to you, whether I came from...El Salvador or Haiti...or maybe..Norway?
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Ben joins the discussion claiming to have all the answers, even chastising the group for wasting his time.
This is exactly the kind of bickering I was referencing. Why do you have the need to negatively lash out like that?
"He cites a NY Supreme Court decision that isn't on point, refers us to a Pennsylvania housing website, then quotes some other irrelevant stuff (private clubs being my favorite)... and in so doing guarantees several more pages of bickering."
The original poster was asking if it is even possible to rent to illegal immigrants, which this court case (one of many) confirms it is legally possible. The Supremacy Clause states that only the federal government can regulate these immigration related items, and since the court found that there were no federal laws being broken by renting to illegals, the fact that it comes from the NY Supreme Court or from a Pennsylvania website is completely irrelevant. For further research you can also look up Freemont NE, Hazelton PA, Farmers Branch TX, Alabama H.B. 56 or any of the other instances of places attempting their own laws which have all failed. The Supreme Court has not formally ruled on this, except in their decline to review such cases as recently as 2014.
Private clubs were included for the sake of completeness in regards to exceptions to Fair Housing laws regarding discrimination, if you don't find it useful then feel free to ignore it! However I would argue that the sections I highlighted could be very useful to the overwhelming majority of BP readers, as the majority of readers probably only have 1-3 SFR units or are house hacking a multi unit in which case chances are very high that it's the wild west and that you can discriminate for absolutely any reason you want. While I don't condone discrimination in general, these exceptions can be useful in a variety of situations such as when you have a no pets policy and a prospective tenant insists that his enormous dog is an emotional support animal.
@Mike S. What makes you think that I don't care if people lie to me or not? I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
You came off as a know-it-all. Had I known you were so sensitive I would have responded differently.
Re-read the original post. The would be applicant informed OP about the immigration status. OP's was a 2 part question. 1) is it legal and 2) should I even.
Of course it is possible. That's not responsive.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Looks like you're not familiar with California bill AB 291 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextC...
Which states very clearly, that a landlord DOES NOT deserve to know if a potential renter is her without proper status. You are NOT allowed to ask. You are NOT allowed to threaten with the status. You are NOT allowed to disclose their status, if you happen to know it.
Very interesting. Please present us with your California Bar # since you are giving legal advice in a state in which you do not live. Where did you go to law school? When did you pass the Calif. Bar? Or, *any* Bar for that matter? As a landlord or as an illegal, if I rely on your legal advice will you represent me in court or take responsibility for your lack of awareness of immigration law and/or case law?
The thing is neither you ror Mr Gimer are interested in the law because when it is cited to you basically both revert to "political" dog whistles.
Both of you have been indulged on this thread far too long and have been using it for something far more nasty.
Ben cited a NY lower court eviction case. Technically that's better than citing The Washington Diplomat, but not by much.
I think I get it now... if anyone dares to speak up against the open-borders, pro-illegal immigrant, anti-rule-of-law crowd, simply label them racist and the problem is solved. Like I said several pages ago, that tactic is so overplayed it no longer works. You and @Michaela G. apparently haven't been paying attention.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Post Falls, ID · Member since 2016 · 606 posts · 699 votes8y
My policies state that all applicants have a credit/criminal/eviction report and pass my preset qualifications. My credit check provider (National Credit Reporting) requires a SSN to run the reports. I have been in this situation and had direct conversations with my credit check provider about this. I have also had Fair Housing training that emphasizes the importance of a consistent process for all applicants.
To alter my policies for those without a SSN would be discriminatory, and illegal. It would also be unwise for me from a business standpoint.
It is important that we be accurate in the advice we give.
Of course, as a LL you do not need to screen your applicants. Some LLs rent to the first applicant who can come up with move-in monies.
- Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 363 posts · 143 votes8y
@Philip Bennett I Totally agree with @Vanesa Gonzalez my issues with tenants have been with people with all legal documents, you may ask for a cosigned or an extra deposit if your state allow to ask for more than 2 months of deposit
- Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
I was starting to think I was reading NPR online. Is this BiggerPockets? Lol 🤔
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Well, here it comes. Know the status of your Renters or you could wind up with unplanned vacancies.
************************************************* DHS preparing to arrest leaders of sanctuary citiesBy Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Tuesday, January 16, 2018
Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen confirmed Tuesday that her department has asked federal prosecutors to see if they can lodge criminal charges against sanctuary cities that refuse to cooperate with federal deportation efforts.
“The Department of Justice is reviewing what avenues may be available,” Ms. Nielsen told the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Her confirmation came after California’s new sanctuary law went into effect Jan. 1, severely restricting cooperation the state or any of its localities could offer.