Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
Most Popular Reply
Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes8yImmigration status is NOT a protected class. (Race, Color, Religion, National Origin, Religion, Sex and Family Status) are, as well as, for Fair Housing Act. In fact, the Seventh Circuit weighed in on this precise question in Cortezano v. Salin Bank & Trust Co., deciding that Title VII does not protect against discrimination based on citizenship or immigration status. National Origin does not yet fall under this, but I can easily see down the road a disparate impact discrimination claim based on immigration succeeding down the road. Depending on the jurisdiction. I am not giving you legal advice, but just stating my opinion for this topic. Don’t get into racial issues by profiling and mixing your politics with renting a place. Have policies and procedures establishing how applications are to be reviewed, require an application to be fully completed to be considered. Fully follow your policies with each application. Etc. Then it will be hard to argue you are discriminating and that immigration or race was ever an issue.
Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:
Immigration status is NOT a protected class. (Race, Color, Religion, National Origin, Religion, Sex and Family Status) are, as well as, for Fair Housing Act.
In fact, the Seventh Circuit weighed in on this precise question in Cortezano v. Salin Bank & Trust Co., deciding that Title VII does not protect against discrimination based on citizenship or immigration status.
National Origin does not yet fall under this, but I can easily see down the road a disparate impact discrimination claim based on immigration succeeding down the road. Depending on the jurisdiction.
I am not giving you legal advice, but just stating my opinion for this topic.
Don’t get into racial issues by profiling and mixing your politics with renting a place. Have policies and procedures establishing how applications are to be reviewed, require an application to be fully completed to be considered. Fully follow your policies with each application. Etc. Then it will be hard to argue you are discriminating and that immigration or race was ever an issue.
The question of immigration status not being a protected class is a red herring because the reality is you are going to get into racial issues, profiling and mixing politics with your rental if you start factoring in what you think an applicants citizenship status is.
It is not enough to say fully follow your policies. As you have alluded to in your post, you have to consider whether the policies you are following can expose you to a disparate impact claim. From what I have read here people don't seem to be very good at that.
- Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes8yIt’s not a protected class yet. Period. And did you read what I wrote? I said that they can draw in race related issues. So please read my actual reply before before you mention me in a comment and don’t fully and accurately represent what I said. Thanks. It’s not a protected class. May end up getting a race related claim. Follow and establish policies to minimize damages and possibly claim of discrimination.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Brian Bradley As I have said previously, if a landlord wants to keep illegal immigrants from renting their property then they should simply say so on the application and ask the question... "Is every proposed occupant in the country legally?"
Requiring a social security number is much more problematic.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:
It’s not a protected class yet. Period. And did you read what I wrote? I said that they can draw in race related issues. So please read my actual reply before before you mention me in a comment and don’t fully and accurately represent what I said. Thanks.
It’s not a protected class.
May end up getting a race related claim.
Follow and establish policies to minimize damages and possibly claim of discrimination.It's unlikely they read your comment and if they did, It's unlikely they understand the law, and if they read your comment and understand the law, It's unlikely they agree with the law and therefore won't follow the law; therein is the problem. ;-)
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Brian Bradley I am expecting a case related to requiring Social Security numbers in the next few years. The claimants will be foreign students. It will claim disparate impact against Asians.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:
It’s not a protected class yet. Period. And did you read what I wrote? I said that they can draw in race related issues. So please read my actual reply before before you mention me in a comment and don’t fully and accurately represent what I said. Thanks.
It’s not a protected class.
May end up getting a race related claim.
Follow and establish policies to minimize damages and possibly claim of discrimination.If you were referring to me, yes I read and interpreted you accurately.
I agreed with what you said, but disagree with the emphasis because if there is potential exposure to a discrimination claim (absolutely agree) then whether or not it is of itself a protected status is of less importance.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Sure it is. I'm here legally. My wife is an immigrant here legally. If you aren't here legally I wan t to know about it. That is what this thread is all about.
You have no standing to post if you aren't here legally. Well, you can post of course but it's a crap meaningless post if you aren't here legally.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Sure it is. I'm here legally. My wife is an immigrant here legally. If you aren't here legally I wan t to know about it. That is what this thread is all about.
You have no standing to post if you aren't here legally. Well, you can post of course but it's a crap meaningless post if you aren't here legally.
If your wife is an immigrant then you have somebody at home you can play vigilante with.
Don't do it here.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Sure it is. I'm here legally. My wife is an immigrant here legally. If you aren't here legally I wan t to know about it. That is what this thread is all about.
You have no standing to post if you aren't here legally. Well, you can post of course but it's a crap meaningless post if you aren't here legally.
If your wife is an immigrant then you have somebody at home you can play vigilante with.
Don't do it here.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Sure it is. I'm here legally. My wife is an immigrant here legally. If you aren't here legally I wan t to know about it. That is what this thread is all about.
You have no standing to post if you aren't here legally. Well, you can post of course but it's a crap meaningless post if you aren't here legally.
If your wife is an immigrant then you have somebody at home you can play vigilante with.
Don't do it here.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Are you here legally @Ihe O ?
None of your business.
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Please address the whining to someone else.
All your misconceptions have been addressed earlier in the thread. Too bad if you didn't read or comprehend it first time around.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Looks like you're not familiar with California bill AB 291 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextC...
Which states very clearly, that a landlord DOES NOT deserve to know if a potential renter is her without proper status. You are NOT allowed to ask. You are NOT allowed to threaten with the status. You are NOT allowed to disclose their status, if you happen to know it.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
See below after the ****
Originally posted by @Account Closed:First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
****As has been explained various times in this thread - it's a civil enfraction, similar to jaywalking. If you consider anyone that's ever crossed a street outside of a crosswalk a a law breaker, then you won't have many people left.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
****Yes, it can happen, but the chances of it happening aren't that large. THere are 11 million here and only a fraction get deported every year.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
****Illegal is not a noun. It's only being used by those people who'd also like to say the n....word, but are worried about repercussion, so, they gladly use the same type of slur on people where the repercussion might be small.
*****Hm....have never seen a judge at an eviction hearing proclaim the tenant a thief. They get a judgment for outstanding rent and there's no jailtime for it. So, why should undocumented immigrants be treated any harsher than Americans?
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
*****Very different from someone not being able to pay the rent, whether they lost their job or got deported. Just because you want it to be the same, does not make it so under the law.
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Anybody who is a landlord **deserves to know** if the potential renter is here illegally.
First, it's the law that they are breaking and if they are willing to break laws they are a big risk and the landlord deserves to know how big that risk is.
Secondly if a landlord has an illegal tenant and that tenant gets deported the landlord gets stuck with a vacancy and unpaid rent and loss.
That is called stealing. That makes the illegal a thief.
Try staying at a hotel and not paying They throw you into jail for theft of services. Do you think the deported illegal is going to send rent money from his home country to honor his contract? Don't bank on it.
It's hard enough to stay in business as a landlord and when people are dishonest it makes some landlords fail. Just read the posts.
Thirdly, deportations are going to skyrocket this year and next and anybody who rents to illegals needs to be very, very cautious.
It is NOT *your* property. It is the landlord's property. If you want property, buy your own. Illegals can *buy* property. That isn't a problem. But when you involve other people, and commit theft, you are a very bad person and deserve to be deported.
Looks like you're not familiar with California bill AB 291 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextC...
Which states very clearly, that a landlord DOES NOT deserve to know if a potential renter is her without proper status. You are NOT allowed to ask. You are NOT allowed to threaten with the status. You are NOT allowed to disclose their status, if you happen to know it.
This is sanctuary state policy.
Let's see if you can cite it condescendingly a year or two from now.
Gimer Law517 Reviews- Rental Property Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 396 posts · 995 votes8y
Why are there 10 pages worth of bickering on this topic? The law is actually rather clear in these matters.
A recent case decided in the Supreme Court in New York County, Recalde v. BAE Cleaners, Inc., affirms the right of an illegal alien to obtain an apartment and not be subjected to an inquiry by a landlord to verify “a tenant’s immigration status….” The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status.
Regardless of one’s immigration status all individuals, both here legally and illegally are protected under fair housing laws. The fact that the OP somehow knows that this applicant is illegal is 100% irrelevant. However, if the applicant is unable to sufficiently fill out the application to a degree that verifying identity or performing standard background and/or credit checks is impossible, then the application can be rejected on the grounds of being incomplete, assuming that such information is otherwise required for all other applicants. However, please keep in mind that even Fair Housing laws have exceptions, and depending on how many units the owner has, he MAY BE able to legally reject an applicant for ANY, or no reason whatsoever, in which case he could legally deny anyone who is not a single, white, caucasian female aged 18-25 so long as he does the screening himself and does not advertise his preferences.
A list of the exemptions to the Fair Housing Act of 1988, emphasis added for the common important ones…
-Age: An exemption is provided to housing protections afforded to age and familial classes intended for older people. Housing may be restricted to people 62 or older or 55 or older in cases where at least one occupant per unit is 55 and at least 80 percent of the units are occupied by people ages 55 or older. In these cases children may be excluded.
-Owner-occupied housing: Multifamily housing of two to four units, where one of the units is owner-occupied, is exempt from fair housing laws.
-Private clubs: An organization that restricts its membership may provide restricted housing to its members, as long as it doesn’t offer housing to the general public.
-Public-law occupancy standards: Local maximum occupancy standards aren’t superseded in their application by the Fair Housing Act. For example, if a local law provides a maximum occupancy of two people per bedroom and you rent out a studio apartment in a building you own, you can’t be forced to rent the apartment to a couple with a child.
-Religious organizations: Housing sponsored by a religious organization may be restricted to members of that particular religious organization, provided the religion doesn’t discriminate in its membership policies.
-Single-family housing: The sale or rental of a single-family house is exempted from the rules of the Fair Housing Act if the owner doesn’t own more than three units at one time, and neither a broker nor discriminatory advertising is used. If such a property is sold, no more than one house can be sold during every two-year period.
From equalhousing.org: Can landlords ask for immigration documents? Landlords are allowed to request documentation and conduct inquiries to determine whether a potential renter meets the criteria for rental, so long as this same procedure is applied to all potential renters. Landlords can ask for identity documents and institute credit checks to ensure ability to pay rent. However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status.
Landlords should remember that their policies must be consistent. If they ask for information from one person or group, they must ask for the same information from all applicants and tenants.
Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Why are there 10 pages worth of bickering on this topic? The law is actually rather clear in these matters.
A recent case decided in the Supreme Court in New York County, Recalde v. BAE Cleaners, Inc., affirms the right of an illegal alien to obtain an apartment and not be subjected to an inquiry by a landlord to verify “a tenant’s immigration status….” The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status.
Regardless of one’s immigration status all individuals, both here legally and illegally are protected under fair housing laws. The fact that the OP somehow knows that this applicant is illegal is 100% irrelevant. However, if the applicant is unable to sufficiently fill out the application to a degree that verifying identity or performing standard background and/or credit checks is impossible, then the application can be rejected on the grounds of being incomplete, assuming that such information is otherwise required for all other applicants. However, please keep in mind that even Fair Housing laws have exceptions, and depending on how many units the owner has, he MAY BE able to legally reject an applicant for ANY, or no reason whatsoever, in which case he could legally deny anyone who is not a single, white, caucasian female aged 18-25 so long as he does the screening himself and does not advertise his preferences.
A list of the exemptions to the Fair Housing Act of 1988, emphasis added for the common important ones…
-Age: An exemption is provided to housing protections afforded to age and familial classes intended for older people. Housing may be restricted to people 62 or older or 55 or older in cases where at least one occupant per unit is 55 and at least 80 percent of the units are occupied by people ages 55 or older. In these cases children may be excluded.
-Owner-occupied housing: Multifamily housing of two to four units, where one of the units is owner-occupied, is exempt from fair housing laws.
-Private clubs: An organization that restricts its membership may provide restricted housing to its members, as long as it doesn’t offer housing to the general public.
-Public-law occupancy standards: Local maximum occupancy standards aren’t superseded in their application by the Fair Housing Act. For example, if a local law provides a maximum occupancy of two people per bedroom and you rent out a studio apartment in a building you own, you can’t be forced to rent the apartment to a couple with a child.
-Religious organizations: Housing sponsored by a religious organization may be restricted to members of that particular religious organization, provided the religion doesn’t discriminate in its membership policies.
-Single-family housing: The sale or rental of a single-family house is exempted from the rules of the Fair Housing Act if the owner doesn’t own more than three units at one time, and neither a broker nor discriminatory advertising is used. If such a property is sold, no more than one house can be sold during every two-year period.
From equalhousing.org: Can landlords ask for immigration documents? Landlords are allowed to request documentation and conduct inquiries to determine whether a potential renter meets the criteria for rental, so long as this same procedure is applied to all potential renters. Landlords can ask for identity documents and institute credit checks to ensure ability to pay rent. However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status.
Landlords should remember that their policies must be consistent. If they ask for information from one person or group, they must ask for the same information from all applicants and tenants.
Ben joins the discussion claiming to have all the answers, even chastising the group for wasting his time.
He cites a NY Supreme Court decision that isn't on point, refers us to a Pennsylvania housing website, then quotes some other irrelevant stuff (private clubs being my favorite)... and in so doing guarantees several more pages of bickering.
Gimer Law517 ReviewsOriginally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Why are there 10 pages worth of bickering on this topic? The law is actually rather clear in these matters.
A recent case decided in the Supreme Court in New York County, Recalde v. BAE Cleaners, Inc., affirms the right of an illegal alien to obtain an apartment and not be subjected to an inquiry by a landlord to verify “a tenant’s immigration status….” The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status.
Regardless of one’s immigration status all individuals, both here legally and illegally are protected under fair housing laws. The fact that the OP somehow knows that this applicant is illegal is 100% irrelevant. However, if the applicant is unable to sufficiently fill out the application to a degree that verifying identity or performing standard background and/or credit checks is impossible, then the application can be rejected on the grounds of being incomplete, assuming that such information is otherwise required for all other applicants. However, please keep in mind that even Fair Housing laws have exceptions, and depending on how many units the owner has, he MAY BE able to legally reject an applicant for ANY, or no reason whatsoever, in which case he could legally deny anyone who is not a single, white, caucasian female aged 18-25 so long as he does the screening himself and does not advertise his preferences.
A list of the exemptions to the Fair Housing Act of 1988, emphasis added for the common important ones…
-Age: An exemption is provided to housing protections afforded to age and familial classes intended for older people. Housing may be restricted to people 62 or older or 55 or older in cases where at least one occupant per unit is 55 and at least 80 percent of the units are occupied by people ages 55 or older. In these cases children may be excluded.
-Owner-occupied housing: Multifamily housing of two to four units, where one of the units is owner-occupied, is exempt from fair housing laws.
-Private clubs: An organization that restricts its membership may provide restricted housing to its members, as long as it doesn’t offer housing to the general public.
-Public-law occupancy standards: Local maximum occupancy standards aren’t superseded in their application by the Fair Housing Act. For example, if a local law provides a maximum occupancy of two people per bedroom and you rent out a studio apartment in a building you own, you can’t be forced to rent the apartment to a couple with a child.
-Religious organizations: Housing sponsored by a religious organization may be restricted to members of that particular religious organization, provided the religion doesn’t discriminate in its membership policies.
-Single-family housing: The sale or rental of a single-family house is exempted from the rules of the Fair Housing Act if the owner doesn’t own more than three units at one time, and neither a broker nor discriminatory advertising is used. If such a property is sold, no more than one house can be sold during every two-year period.
From equalhousing.org: Can landlords ask for immigration documents? Landlords are allowed to request documentation and conduct inquiries to determine whether a potential renter meets the criteria for rental, so long as this same procedure is applied to all potential renters. Landlords can ask for identity documents and institute credit checks to ensure ability to pay rent. However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status.
Landlords should remember that their policies must be consistent. If they ask for information from one person or group, they must ask for the same information from all applicants and tenants.
So a competent court conducted a legal enquiry and reached the following conclusion.
"The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status."
Quelle Supris.
Thank you Ben.
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Why are there 10 pages worth of bickering on this topic? The law is actually rather clear in these matters.
A recent case decided in the Supreme Court in New York County, Recalde v. BAE Cleaners, Inc., affirms the right of an illegal alien to obtain an apartment and not be subjected to an inquiry by a landlord to verify “a tenant’s immigration status….” The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status.
Regardless of one’s immigration status all individuals, both here legally and illegally are protected under fair housing laws. The fact that the OP somehow knows that this applicant is illegal is 100% irrelevant. However, if the applicant is unable to sufficiently fill out the application to a degree that verifying identity or performing standard background and/or credit checks is impossible, then the application can be rejected on the grounds of being incomplete, assuming that such information is otherwise required for all other applicants. However, please keep in mind that even Fair Housing laws have exceptions, and depending on how many units the owner has, he MAY BE able to legally reject an applicant for ANY, or no reason whatsoever, in which case he could legally deny anyone who is not a single, white, caucasian female aged 18-25 so long as he does the screening himself and does not advertise his preferences.
A list of the exemptions to the Fair Housing Act of 1988, emphasis added for the common important ones…
-Age: An exemption is provided to housing protections afforded to age and familial classes intended for older people. Housing may be restricted to people 62 or older or 55 or older in cases where at least one occupant per unit is 55 and at least 80 percent of the units are occupied by people ages 55 or older. In these cases children may be excluded.
-Owner-occupied housing: Multifamily housing of two to four units, where one of the units is owner-occupied, is exempt from fair housing laws.
-Private clubs: An organization that restricts its membership may provide restricted housing to its members, as long as it doesn’t offer housing to the general public.
-Public-law occupancy standards: Local maximum occupancy standards aren’t superseded in their application by the Fair Housing Act. For example, if a local law provides a maximum occupancy of two people per bedroom and you rent out a studio apartment in a building you own, you can’t be forced to rent the apartment to a couple with a child.
-Religious organizations: Housing sponsored by a religious organization may be restricted to members of that particular religious organization, provided the religion doesn’t discriminate in its membership policies.
-Single-family housing: The sale or rental of a single-family house is exempted from the rules of the Fair Housing Act if the owner doesn’t own more than three units at one time, and neither a broker nor discriminatory advertising is used. If such a property is sold, no more than one house can be sold during every two-year period.
From equalhousing.org: Can landlords ask for immigration documents? Landlords are allowed to request documentation and conduct inquiries to determine whether a potential renter meets the criteria for rental, so long as this same procedure is applied to all potential renters. Landlords can ask for identity documents and institute credit checks to ensure ability to pay rent. However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status.
Landlords should remember that their policies must be consistent. If they ask for information from one person or group, they must ask for the same information from all applicants and tenants.
So a competent court conducted a legal enquiry and reached the following conclusion.
"The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status."
Quelle Supris.
Thank you Ben.
The "NY Supreme Court" is the trial court in New York. This is like a Circuit Court decision in Maryland... on an issue we aren't even discussing.
Think about both of those things before rushing to reply again.
Gimer Law517 Reviews- Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes8y
@Account Closed
The claim would get your through the door and past a motion to dismiss. It might not survive a motion for summary judgment, but thats after a lot of litigation and discovery.
So, does Illegal immigration status exists as a protected class? NO!
Does that mean you will be able to avoid a law suite by discrimination against illegal immigrants, or by asking for SS No and then denying their application if not provided? NO!
You don’t need to like the law, or agree with the law, or politics or whatever. Just learn how to work within the parameters of the law.
A good creative lawyer would simply file a disparage impact claim that your application and policy create a disparate impact on them due to their NATIONALITY.
So, just don’t discriminate and set up non-discriminatory screening practices and policies. Then you are good to go. And for those of you who say to just ask for a social security No and then not rent to them if they refuse. That would not work in states like Oregon for the above reason. It would be classified as grounds for disparate impact discrimination due to national origin.
- Riverside, CA · Member since 2017 · 412 posts · 296 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Ben Zimmerman:
Why are there 10 pages worth of bickering on this topic? The law is actually rather clear in these matters.
A recent case decided in the Supreme Court in New York County, Recalde v. BAE Cleaners, Inc., affirms the right of an illegal alien to obtain an apartment and not be subjected to an inquiry by a landlord to verify “a tenant’s immigration status….” The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status.
Regardless of one’s immigration status all individuals, both here legally and illegally are protected under fair housing laws. The fact that the OP somehow knows that this applicant is illegal is 100% irrelevant. However, if the applicant is unable to sufficiently fill out the application to a degree that verifying identity or performing standard background and/or credit checks is impossible, then the application can be rejected on the grounds of being incomplete, assuming that such information is otherwise required for all other applicants. However, please keep in mind that even Fair Housing laws have exceptions, and depending on how many units the owner has, he MAY BE able to legally reject an applicant for ANY, or no reason whatsoever, in which case he could legally deny anyone who is not a single, white, caucasian female aged 18-25 so long as he does the screening himself and does not advertise his preferences.
A list of the exemptions to the Fair Housing Act of 1988, emphasis added for the common important ones…
-Age: An exemption is provided to housing protections afforded to age and familial classes intended for older people. Housing may be restricted to people 62 or older or 55 or older in cases where at least one occupant per unit is 55 and at least 80 percent of the units are occupied by people ages 55 or older. In these cases children may be excluded.
-Owner-occupied housing: Multifamily housing of two to four units, where one of the units is owner-occupied, is exempt from fair housing laws.
-Private clubs: An organization that restricts its membership may provide restricted housing to its members, as long as it doesn’t offer housing to the general public.
-Public-law occupancy standards: Local maximum occupancy standards aren’t superseded in their application by the Fair Housing Act. For example, if a local law provides a maximum occupancy of two people per bedroom and you rent out a studio apartment in a building you own, you can’t be forced to rent the apartment to a couple with a child.
-Religious organizations: Housing sponsored by a religious organization may be restricted to members of that particular religious organization, provided the religion doesn’t discriminate in its membership policies.
-Single-family housing: The sale or rental of a single-family house is exempted from the rules of the Fair Housing Act if the owner doesn’t own more than three units at one time, and neither a broker nor discriminatory advertising is used. If such a property is sold, no more than one house can be sold during every two-year period.
From equalhousing.org: Can landlords ask for immigration documents? Landlords are allowed to request documentation and conduct inquiries to determine whether a potential renter meets the criteria for rental, so long as this same procedure is applied to all potential renters. Landlords can ask for identity documents and institute credit checks to ensure ability to pay rent. However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status.
Landlords should remember that their policies must be consistent. If they ask for information from one person or group, they must ask for the same information from all applicants and tenants.
So a competent court conducted a legal enquiry and reached the following conclusion.
"The Court found that there was no Federal or New York legal precedent which “prohibits a landlord from renting an apartment to a tenant who lacks legal immigration status."
Quelle Supris.
Thank you Ben.
The "NY Supreme Court" is the trial court in New York. This is like a Circuit Court decision in Maryland... on an issue we aren't even discussing.
Think about both of those things before rushing to reply again.
@Tom Gimer is correct. Cases heard in NY don't carry the weight out west that you think.
Also, It isn't a question of whether it is "legal" to rent to an "Illegal" it is a question of the "illegal" lying about his status and thus causing risk to a landlord that the landlord should and has the right to know about. Once the information *isn't withheld*, the landlord can do as he pleases and take his chances if he wishes. However, if the landlord isn't given the opportunity to decide based on all the facts, that is what we call fraud. The "illegal" is causing fraud on the landlord. That makes the "illegal" dishonest and unwelcome.
It befuddles me why you have no problem with people lying to you @Ben Zimmerman.
- Rental Property Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 396 posts · 995 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Ben joins the discussion claiming to have all the answers, even chastising the group for wasting his time.
This is exactly the kind of bickering I was referencing. Why do you have the need to negatively lash out like that?
"He cites a NY Supreme Court decision that isn't on point, refers us to a Pennsylvania housing website, then quotes some other irrelevant stuff (private clubs being my favorite)... and in so doing guarantees several more pages of bickering."
The original poster was asking if it is even possible to rent to illegal immigrants, which this court case (one of many) confirms it is legally possible. The Supremacy Clause states that only the federal government can regulate these immigration related items, and since the court found that there were no federal laws being broken by renting to illegals, the fact that it comes from the NY Supreme Court or from a Pennsylvania website is completely irrelevant. For further research you can also look up Freemont NE, Hazelton PA, Farmers Branch TX, Alabama H.B. 56 or any of the other instances of places attempting their own laws which have all failed. The Supreme Court has not formally ruled on this, except in their decline to review such cases as recently as 2014.
Private clubs were included for the sake of completeness in regards to exceptions to Fair Housing laws regarding discrimination, if you don't find it useful then feel free to ignore it! However I would argue that the sections I highlighted could be very useful to the overwhelming majority of BP readers, as the majority of readers probably only have 1-3 SFR units or are house hacking a multi unit in which case chances are very high that it's the wild west and that you can discriminate for absolutely any reason you want. While I don't condone discrimination in general, these exceptions can be useful in a variety of situations such as when you have a no pets policy and a prospective tenant insists that his enormous dog is an emotional support animal.
@Mike S. What makes you think that I don't care if people lie to me or not? I simply don't ask if they are here legally or not, because that is none of my concern because I am not ICE. That simply isn't my role as a landlord. My role is to figure out if they will pay on time without destroying the place.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Account Closed Most people do not ask if people are in the country legally on the application. So what lie are you talking about?