Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
Most Popular Reply
Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
Hi...
I'd like to rent your house. I can't legally work in the US so income is iffy. I have no idea how long I can stay in this country, so a 1-2 year lease sounds about right. Yeah, it's possible I could be picked up any time and deported. Oh, I'm also essentially judgment proof.
Where do I sign?
Gimer Law517 Reviews- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
In the following real life example, it’s obvious Mr Elk would have stabilized his operation if he could have coordinated with just one landlord for his 217 employees and associates.
And using LLCs were no panacea for him to avoid prosecution either. It’s like this story was tailor made for this, tax fraud, alien harboring, money laundering, arson...
http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2012/05/23/IHOP-indictments-to-be-announced-today.html
It all comes down to taste, you try to run your business as best you can based on the risks you face. No, it’s not that hard to fathom a landlord could get “tangled up” with their tenants since 1907 8 USC 1324(a) includes “...knowingly or with reckless disregard...”.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant.
Yeah - racial profiling... that's what it will start to look like after you are done policing illegal immigration in your rentals. Don't you realise that.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
That's funny you ask that because I have wondered that very thing. I don't know the answer. I don't like when people cook with too much grease. It tends to damage walls to the point of needing to scrape them down and repaint, and the grease attaches itself, along with the smell, in pretty much everything, to the point that a typical security deposit would not cover the expense of removing the grease and the smells from everywhere. Not only is it nasty to the house, I worry about the personal health of the occupants!!! I entertained the idea of offering a discount for vegans, but for the reasons we are discussing in this thread, have never done that, or anything else to address the problem, at least not on the application/acceptance side. Certainly nothing illegal about what someone eats (not yet), so I don't know how this is relevant to the thread.
What I do however, is have a maintenance and cleaning agreement that goes above and beyond the typical lease language. I specify what is expected, to the extent I can under law, and have my tenants sign it. I say to the extent of the law, because in WI the tenants responsibilities are written into law, which include what they must do and also, what they are not liable for (normal wear and tear for instance). I write that they agree to follow the rules of cleaning and maintenance, unless otherwise prohibited by law. Maybe I can enforce this, maybe I cant, but I don't worry about any discrimination suit against me because of it. If you like to deep-fry food every night, you are going to be responsible to clean that disgusting stuff off the stove, cabinets, walls, baseboards and floors, not me - it creates a safety hazard on the floor too.
I've had tenants who eat like that, and what I do is gift them a copy of Forks Over Knives, which often turns people instantly vegan, or at least gets them to stop eating so much grease - lol. I recommend you check it out too!
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
That's funny you ask that because I have wondered that very thing. I don't know the answer. I don't like when people cook with too much grease. It tends to damage walls to the point of needing to scrape them down and repaint, and the grease attaches itself, along with the smell, in pretty much everything, to the point that a typical security deposit would not cover the expense of removing the grease and the smells from everywhere. Not only is it nasty to the house, I worry about the personal health of the occupants!!! I entertained the idea of offering a discount for vegans, but for the reasons we are discussing in this thread, have never done that, or anything else to address the problem, at least not on the application/acceptance side. Certainly nothing illegal about what someone eats (not yet), so I don't know how this is relevant to the thread.
What I do however, is have a maintenance and cleaning agreement that goes above and beyond the typical lease language. I specify what is expected, to the extent I can under law, and have my tenants sign it. I say to the extent of the law, because in WI the tenants responsibilities are written into law, which include what they must do and also, what they are not liable for (normal wear and tear for instance). I write that they agree to follow the rules of cleaning and maintenance, unless otherwise prohibited by law. Maybe I can enforce this, maybe I cant, but I don't worry about any discrimination suit against me because of it. If you like to deep-fry food every night, you are going to be responsible to clean that disgusting stuff off the stove, cabinets, walls, baseboards and floors, not me - it creates a safety hazard on the floor too.
I've had tenants who eat like that, and what I do is gift them a copy of Forks Over Knives, which often turns people instantly vegan, or at least gets them to stop eating so much grease - lol. I recommend you check it out too!
Ok so let me help you out a bit.
Supposing there was a no rent policy consistently applied to people who cook with spices that left a lingering aroma.
Do you see any potential problem with that.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
That's funny you ask that because I have wondered that very thing. I don't know the answer. I don't like when people cook with too much grease. It tends to damage walls to the point of needing to scrape them down and repaint, and the grease attaches itself, along with the smell, in pretty much everything, to the point that a typical security deposit would not cover the expense of removing the grease and the smells from everywhere. Not only is it nasty to the house, I worry about the personal health of the occupants!!! I entertained the idea of offering a discount for vegans, but for the reasons we are discussing in this thread, have never done that, or anything else to address the problem, at least not on the application/acceptance side. Certainly nothing illegal about what someone eats (not yet), so I don't know how this is relevant to the thread.
What I do however, is have a maintenance and cleaning agreement that goes above and beyond the typical lease language. I specify what is expected, to the extent I can under law, and have my tenants sign it. I say to the extent of the law, because in WI the tenants responsibilities are written into law, which include what they must do and also, what they are not liable for (normal wear and tear for instance). I write that they agree to follow the rules of cleaning and maintenance, unless otherwise prohibited by law. Maybe I can enforce this, maybe I cant, but I don't worry about any discrimination suit against me because of it. If you like to deep-fry food every night, you are going to be responsible to clean that disgusting stuff off the stove, cabinets, walls, baseboards and floors, not me - it creates a safety hazard on the floor too.
I've had tenants who eat like that, and what I do is gift them a copy of Forks Over Knives, which often turns people instantly vegan, or at least gets them to stop eating so much grease - lol. I recommend you check it out too!
Ok so let me help you out a bit.
Supposing there was a no rent policy consistently applied to people who cook with spices that left a lingering aroma.
Do you see any potential problem with that.
I wonder what I have said, or not said, that would make you even ask that question? This has been a fun thread and very interesting and definitely has got me thinking about some things, but I don't see where its going in a constructive direction anymore. If you have something to say, say it.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
That's funny you ask that because I have wondered that very thing. I don't know the answer. I don't like when people cook with too much grease. It tends to damage walls to the point of needing to scrape them down and repaint, and the grease attaches itself, along with the smell, in pretty much everything, to the point that a typical security deposit would not cover the expense of removing the grease and the smells from everywhere. Not only is it nasty to the house, I worry about the personal health of the occupants!!! I entertained the idea of offering a discount for vegans, but for the reasons we are discussing in this thread, have never done that, or anything else to address the problem, at least not on the application/acceptance side. Certainly nothing illegal about what someone eats (not yet), so I don't know how this is relevant to the thread.
What I do however, is have a maintenance and cleaning agreement that goes above and beyond the typical lease language. I specify what is expected, to the extent I can under law, and have my tenants sign it. I say to the extent of the law, because in WI the tenants responsibilities are written into law, which include what they must do and also, what they are not liable for (normal wear and tear for instance). I write that they agree to follow the rules of cleaning and maintenance, unless otherwise prohibited by law. Maybe I can enforce this, maybe I cant, but I don't worry about any discrimination suit against me because of it. If you like to deep-fry food every night, you are going to be responsible to clean that disgusting stuff off the stove, cabinets, walls, baseboards and floors, not me - it creates a safety hazard on the floor too.
I've had tenants who eat like that, and what I do is gift them a copy of Forks Over Knives, which often turns people instantly vegan, or at least gets them to stop eating so much grease - lol. I recommend you check it out too!
Ok so let me help you out a bit.
Supposing there was a no rent policy consistently applied to people who cook with spices that left a lingering aroma.
Do you see any potential problem with that.
I wonder what I have said, or not said, that would make you even ask that question? This has been a fun thread and very interesting and definitely has got me thinking about some things, but I don't see where its going in a constructive direction anymore. If you have something to say, say it.
What you have said concerns the belief that as long as a landlord is being consistent he is not discriminating that is where my question is heading.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
That's funny you ask that because I have wondered that very thing. I don't know the answer. I don't like when people cook with too much grease. It tends to damage walls to the point of needing to scrape them down and repaint, and the grease attaches itself, along with the smell, in pretty much everything, to the point that a typical security deposit would not cover the expense of removing the grease and the smells from everywhere. Not only is it nasty to the house, I worry about the personal health of the occupants!!! I entertained the idea of offering a discount for vegans, but for the reasons we are discussing in this thread, have never done that, or anything else to address the problem, at least not on the application/acceptance side. Certainly nothing illegal about what someone eats (not yet), so I don't know how this is relevant to the thread.
What I do however, is have a maintenance and cleaning agreement that goes above and beyond the typical lease language. I specify what is expected, to the extent I can under law, and have my tenants sign it. I say to the extent of the law, because in WI the tenants responsibilities are written into law, which include what they must do and also, what they are not liable for (normal wear and tear for instance). I write that they agree to follow the rules of cleaning and maintenance, unless otherwise prohibited by law. Maybe I can enforce this, maybe I cant, but I don't worry about any discrimination suit against me because of it. If you like to deep-fry food every night, you are going to be responsible to clean that disgusting stuff off the stove, cabinets, walls, baseboards and floors, not me - it creates a safety hazard on the floor too.
I've had tenants who eat like that, and what I do is gift them a copy of Forks Over Knives, which often turns people instantly vegan, or at least gets them to stop eating so much grease - lol. I recommend you check it out too!
Ok so let me help you out a bit.
Supposing there was a no rent policy consistently applied to people who cook with spices that left a lingering aroma.
Do you see any potential problem with that.
I wonder what I have said, or not said, that would make you even ask that question? This has been a fun thread and very interesting and definitely has got me thinking about some things, but I don't see where its going in a constructive direction anymore. If you have something to say, say it.
What you have said concerns the belief that as long as a landlord is being consistent he is not discriminating that is where my question is heading.
You could have saved a lot of time and just said that.
If I had tenants that annoyed other tenants of the building due to their cooking habits I would probably not renew them.
Who cares what the spice is if the building stinks.
When people find discrimination in every act or situation things start to get really old.
Gimer Law517 Reviews- Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 177 posts · 64 votes8y
I am late to this thread and way too many replies for me to read all of them. It seems most of them are arguing hypotheticals about the legality of renting, denying, or evicting an illegal immigrant. I want to give a slightly different perspective that I hope hasn't been given yet.
I am an immigrant to the US, now a citizen, but I lived in and still live close to a part of Philadelphia that has a very large population of illegal immigrants, many of which are friends of friends, etc. As a real estate investor I can tell that if I was actively buying properties in these immigrant pockets I would ABSOLUTELY rent to an illegal immigrant as long as they qualified to my criteria. The criteria will need to be slightly different due to their legal situation but with proper screening an illegal immigrant can be an excellent tenant.
Minimal Criteria:
1) Steady employment and income, and not brand new to the country
2) Sufficient security deposits. I do 2 deposits and first months rent.
Pros:
1) Most illegal immigrants make much more money than you realize (usually not taxed) and if you are strict on rent payments and late fees they will always make paying your rent a priority over other bills.
2) They stay in homes for extended periods of time as long as they aren't brand new to the area and still getting established or doing some kind of house sharing arrangement. If you are a decent responsive landlord they will love you!
3) Immigrants will often spend their own money to update things in your home since they can't just go buy their own. They willingly spend the money to make their home nicer despite knowing it isn't theirs long term. You should make it very clear not just in the lease but in person that you are ok if they want to do some updates or whatever but that everything needs to go through you before it is done. I've seen immigrants update full kitchens and bathrooms because their landlord offered to pay for half of the materials.
4) If you have a property that is kept in good working order, you are a fair landlord to work with, you will never have a vacancy. Illegal immigrants have a harder time renting as you can see from this thread and when they find a decent home with a decent landlord they latch on to it. They will be referring you the next tenant prior to moving out because they know someone in the community who is looking for a decent place. I still have immigrant tenants that call me 2-3 times per year asking if I have any vacancies because they have family or friends looking for a home with a decent landlord.
5) You wont have to evict. An immigrant will borrow money, move out, or whatever they need to do to keep you from using the legal system to take action. The last thing an illegal immigrant wants is anyone related to a court or law enforcement knocking on their door for anything. Immigrants are willing to stay here illegal despite the **** situation it is for one reason... It is generally much safer and financially stable than their country. The last thing they want is something as silly as not paying rent causing them to get deported. Now... getting evicted doesn't result in deportation but illegal immigrants have a natural aversion to anything with law enforcement action. In the rare case that it comes to eviction, you can easily negotiate an easier arrangement like cash for keys or just walk away kind of deal.
There are obviously some cons but I think those are more obvious and this post is long enough.
Good luck,
Igor
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
In my state adulterers are also breaking the law. Will you rent to them?
No. I think it highly unlikely I would ever be in knowledge of such things, but if I owned in Maryland, I would still have a policy that stated the tenants must adhere to all laws while residing in the property. Are there many instances when this issue comes up in Maryland? I haven't seen this anywhere on BP yet, but there are thousands of threads, so maybe its been discussed?
Correct. You would be highly unlikely to have such knowledge unless you made specific enquiries to find out - which is the exact same situation with a tenants immigrant status.
Fair enough you want people to obey laws - but what you are positing is a situation where you as a landlord act as investigator, law enforcement officer, judge and jury over a civil infraction.
Why that particular infraction.
No. That is not what I said, or implied, and you are putting words in my mouth. I went back and read how you got all ruffled when others did that to you, so please don't do it to me, unless you want me to call you a hypocrite.
I am not acting as judge or jury. As a property owner, it is certainly my right to investigate any tenant or applicant. It is also my duty to act as police do, which is to report any suspicion of illegal behavior to a higher authority.
The OP has presented a situation where the applicant has admittedly falsified the application and has confessed that the person who will in fact be living in the unit is an illegal alien. I would not rent to that person on those grounds. First, the application is false. Second, I would not agree to rent to someone who admitted they are currently and will continue to break the law, when my policy is that tenants agree to not break the law - I don't see how I need a conviction in that case. This would be no different than a person who said they are a drug dealer and would I please rent to them. In your example of adultery, it would be the same thing. It would not be likely I would ever find out about adultery, nor would I care on a personal level, but I would not allow it if I did find out about it, so as to remain consistent in my policy.
The next question is what to do when a landlord has reasonable evidence to suspect a tenant is breaking the law. It would be every landlords duty to report it. Does the law say we must continue to rent to them until a conviction? That's a good question for a newer landlord like myself who has yet to encounter it. Then again, I only use MTM leases to avoid such circumstances.
We don't have laws here that say we must not deny an applicant on the grounds they are an illegal alien. Such laws defy common sense and are unfair to the other types of lawbreakers.
It is not your duty to police civil infractions and you are not equipped to determine if one has occurred.
If Fair Housing decide to jack you up they will say you are choosing to police the infractions that will keep brown people out of your rentals and leave you to explain to the court why you have become a self-appointed immigration enforcement official.
LOL. I suppose I could gather witness for my defense from all the brown people I rent to, which so far has been 100%. Do you suppose that would count for anything? Provide some federal case law where the only evidence against a landlord for discriminatory behavior was denying and reporting unlawful presence and then I think you have a point. Until then, you play lawyer and speculate. I sleep just fine with my policies. I will continue to verify identity and I will continue to report suspected unlawful behavior, as are my right and civil duty respectively.
Was the landlord aware? How is it even possible they were not aware? Why did they not come forward? They didn't want to lose rent?
Sounds like unlawful behavior for profit to me. I could be wrong. They say each person in the US commits 3-4 felonies a day, so...
The problem for landlords is consistency, as you and others have pointed out. I do not get to pick and choose which suspicious behaviors to report, and my personal politics don't factor either. If I suspect drug use in my unit, I should report it. If I suspect a counterfeiter resides in my unit, I should report it. And if I suspect an unlawful presence resides in my unit, I should report it. Its not fair to all the people who have been penalized for infractions to let certain choice offenders get a blind eye. I report, the higher authorities do what they will do.
If we don't like certain laws, the appropriate course of action is to work to get them changed. I suppose willful disregard is an option too (I forget the legal term for that), though that is a risky endeavor too. Ask all the convicted drug users how that worked out for them.
I suppose we will all need to make these choices wont we?
I have a question for you.
Landlords are allowed to have a no pets policy and as long as it is applied consistently no problem. A legitimate reason for having that policy could be that pets leave a lasting odour in the property.
Supposing a landlord had a policy of not renting to people who cooked foods that left a lasting odour in a property.
Assuming that policy was applied consistently do you see any problem with that.
That's funny you ask that because I have wondered that very thing. I don't know the answer. I don't like when people cook with too much grease. It tends to damage walls to the point of needing to scrape them down and repaint, and the grease attaches itself, along with the smell, in pretty much everything, to the point that a typical security deposit would not cover the expense of removing the grease and the smells from everywhere. Not only is it nasty to the house, I worry about the personal health of the occupants!!! I entertained the idea of offering a discount for vegans, but for the reasons we are discussing in this thread, have never done that, or anything else to address the problem, at least not on the application/acceptance side. Certainly nothing illegal about what someone eats (not yet), so I don't know how this is relevant to the thread.
What I do however, is have a maintenance and cleaning agreement that goes above and beyond the typical lease language. I specify what is expected, to the extent I can under law, and have my tenants sign it. I say to the extent of the law, because in WI the tenants responsibilities are written into law, which include what they must do and also, what they are not liable for (normal wear and tear for instance). I write that they agree to follow the rules of cleaning and maintenance, unless otherwise prohibited by law. Maybe I can enforce this, maybe I cant, but I don't worry about any discrimination suit against me because of it. If you like to deep-fry food every night, you are going to be responsible to clean that disgusting stuff off the stove, cabinets, walls, baseboards and floors, not me - it creates a safety hazard on the floor too.
I've had tenants who eat like that, and what I do is gift them a copy of Forks Over Knives, which often turns people instantly vegan, or at least gets them to stop eating so much grease - lol. I recommend you check it out too!
Ok so let me help you out a bit.
Supposing there was a no rent policy consistently applied to people who cook with spices that left a lingering aroma.
Do you see any potential problem with that.
I wonder what I have said, or not said, that would make you even ask that question? This has been a fun thread and very interesting and definitely has got me thinking about some things, but I don't see where its going in a constructive direction anymore. If you have something to say, say it.
What you have said concerns the belief that as long as a landlord is being consistent he is not discriminating that is where my question is heading.
You could have saved a lot of time and just said that.
OK. In that case I'll just say that the consistent application of a policy does not insulate a landlord from a discrimination claim.
What is relevant is the effect (note I did not say intent) of the policy.
Originally posted by @Igor Messano:
I am late to this thread and way too many replies for me to read all of them. It seems most of them are arguing hypotheticals about the legality of renting, denying, or evicting an illegal immigrant. I want to give a slightly different perspective that I hope hasn't been given yet.
I am an immigrant to the US, now a citizen, but I lived in and still live close to a part of Philadelphia that has a very large population of illegal immigrants, many of which are friends of friends, etc. As a real estate investor I can tell that if I was actively buying properties in these immigrant pockets I would ABSOLUTELY rent to an illegal immigrant as long as they qualified to my criteria. The criteria will need to be slightly different due to their legal situation but with proper screening an illegal immigrant can be an excellent tenant.
Minimal Criteria:
1) Steady employment and income, and not brand new to the country
2) Sufficient security deposits. I do 2 deposits and first months rent.
Pros:
1) Most illegal immigrants make much more money than you realize (usually not taxed) and if you are strict on rent payments and late fees they will always make paying your rent a priority over other bills.
2) They stay in homes for extended periods of time as long as they aren't brand new to the area and still getting established or doing some kind of house sharing arrangement. If you are a decent responsive landlord they will love you!
3) Immigrants will often spend their own money to update things in your home since they can't just go buy their own. They willingly spend the money to make their home nicer despite knowing it isn't theirs long term. You should make it very clear not just in the lease but in person that you are ok if they want to do some updates or whatever but that everything needs to go through you before it is done. I've seen immigrants update full kitchens and bathrooms because their landlord offered to pay for half of the materials.
4) If you have a property that is kept in good working order, you are a fair landlord to work with, you will never have a vacancy. Illegal immigrants have a harder time renting as you can see from this thread and when they find a decent home with a decent landlord they latch on to it. They will be referring you the next tenant prior to moving out because they know someone in the community who is looking for a decent place. I still have immigrant tenants that call me 2-3 times per year asking if I have any vacancies because they have family or friends looking for a home with a decent landlord.
5) You wont have to evict. An immigrant will borrow money, move out, or whatever they need to do to keep you from using the legal system to take action. The last thing an illegal immigrant wants is anyone related to a court or law enforcement knocking on their door for anything. Immigrants are willing to stay here illegal despite the **** situation it is for one reason... It is generally much safer and financially stable than their country. The last thing they want is something as silly as not paying rent causing them to get deported. Now... getting evicted doesn't result in deportation but illegal immigrants have a natural aversion to anything with law enforcement action. In the rare case that it comes to eviction, you can easily negotiate an easier arrangement like cash for keys or just walk away kind of deal.
There are obviously some cons but I think those are more obvious and this post is long enough.
Good luck,
Igor
Excellent points , Igor. I agree 100%.
- Rental Property Investor · Wichita, KS · Member since 2015 · 83 posts · 45 votes8y
I'd have to talk to a lawyer on this one. One that is familiar with rental properties and possibly one that owns several.
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I don't see that there were any questions, but for those who are interested: These are the only ways that someone can legally come to the U.S. and work and potentially stay here:
1) Have a direct relative (parent, spouse, child) sponsor you and confirm that they will be responsible for you.
2) Be a political refuge (in fear for your life, if you stay in your home country)
3) Invest $ 1,000,000 in the U.S. economy by starting a business here, that within 3 years has to double its number of fultime employees from 3 to 6
4) Be an internationally acclaimed musician, athlete, artist, scholar, supermodel
5) Be specially trained in a job that no American can do. There have to be advertising in the local paper, looking for Americans for this job.
(Unfortunately, this last category has been abused byI.T. employment agencies that are flooding the lottery for this type of visa, so, that other companies don't have much of a chance to bring their talent over).
That's it. Those are the only ways. The average person can't apply and marrying an American would be their only chance to come to the U.S.. How many of you would be eligible to come here? How many of your relatives and friends?
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Gabe N.:
The big question to me is what happens if I rent to an illegal alien and they get deported? I would imagine you get stuck with unpaid rent, damage to the property, and possibly a bunch of their stuff that you have to deal with. That issue alone would be enough to dissuade me from wanting to rent to an illegal immigrant regardless of how qualified they are. It's like renting to somebody who is out on parole. One slip up and they are gone and you are left holding the bag. Is that discriminatory talk or is it just common sense?
Another question is to what extent do these fair housing laws apply to somebody who is not a legal resident of this country? I do not believe the protections offered to citizens of this country can be applied to those illegally residing here. Again, that's just what my common sense would tell me but we all now how twisted the political agenda has made this issue.
Fair housing clearly establishes protected classes and they apply to anyone:
race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status
National origin is not the same as citizenship, it is the country you came from our your ancestors came from. In other words I can't deny an applicant because he is Russian or Mexican decent.
Citizenship status is not a protected class by federal standards. Some local laws prohibit renting to illegal immigrants, so it may even be illegal, check your laws.
Citizenship status is not a protected class but if you make it your business to have policies to police that when you have no statutory or investigative authority to do so you will get yourself into the same type of bother as that Sherriff in Arizona did.
The sheriff Joe example is a completely different situation. It was determined that he was racially profiling.
Landlords need to apply the same standard to EVERY applicant. A landlord is just processing the information the tenant provides on the application. If the applicant lies and the landlord doesn't know, then they rent to the person. If the application is incomplete, applicant lies or information cannot be verified, then the applicant could get denied.
Mexicans are only one source of illegal immigration. The OP was located in Alaska, so geographically speaking this could easily be a Russian. Race or origin doesn't matter. Follow the same standards for everyone.
By the way. Did you know that they don't give you your green card and SSN at the airport.
You apply (or get) those after you arrive. So when you step off the plane all you have is the visa stamp in your passport.
Do you know what an immigrant visa (or an F1, H1, J1) visa looks like?
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I asked you whether you would recognise and be able to distinguish a visa that signified lawful presence if someone showed it to you?
- Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes8y@ihe O Are you saying you don’t think landlord should check to see what a credit report is on the applicant? If so you’re completely ridiculous. Amount of debt matters in relation to one’s income.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Marcus Johnson:
@ihe O
Are you saying you don’t think landlord should check to see what a credit report is on the applicant? If so you’re completely ridiculous. Amount of debt matters in relation to one’s income.
Credit report doesn't necessarily show you debt, nor does it show you income and I'd say debt to income ratio is more important than how much someone owes.
I have a number of commercial loans, that are not reported to the credit bureaus (as is standard). I also have quite a bit income, which a credit report won't show.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I don't see that there were any questions, but for those who are interested: These are the only ways that someone can legally come to the U.S. and work and potentially stay here:
1) Have a direct relative (parent, spouse, child) sponsor you and confirm that they will be responsible for you.
2) Be a political refuge (in fear for your life, if you stay in your home country)
3) Invest $ 1,000,000 in the U.S. economy by starting a business here, that within 3 years has to double its number of fultime employees from 3 to 6
4) Be an internationally acclaimed musician, athlete, artist, scholar, supermodel
5) Be specially trained in a job that no American can do. There have to be advertising in the local paper, looking for Americans for this job.
(Unfortunately, this last category has been abused byI.T. employment agencies that are flooding the lottery for this type of visa, so, that other companies don't have much of a chance to bring their talent over).
That's it. Those are the only ways. The average person can't apply and marrying an American would be their only chance to come to the U.S.. How many of you would be eligible to come here? How many of your relatives and friends?
Lots of mis-information, categories you listed are not accurate and there are major omissions.
There are eight categories and they are completely different than you have stated. The investor clause is part of the employment category and requires the business to be a unique business with 10 employees. There is no category for the internationally acclaimed - that is also part of the employment category. That includes researchers, scientists, doctors, human aid workers, authors and journalists. The employment category has three preference levels, which includes unskilled workers. You left out the "other category" which includes the diversity lottery, which is open to anyone as long as the country doesn't have excessive immigration to the US. The lottery is completely random so your claim that IT companies are influencing it somehow makes no sense. Individuals apply and are selected randomly. You left out the category for human trafficking and victims of abuse. You left out the category for Registry, which qualifies anyone in the US continuously since before 1972.
Source:
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
To address your questions, I have provided resource links with more information on how to legally enter the US and stay/ work here. A passport and visa is required to enter the US in most cases. They will check your passport before boarding the plane. After landing, you go directly to US customs / immigration where they check your paperwork to make sure you are entering legally.
https://www.dhs.gov/visa-types
I don't see that there were any questions, but for those who are interested: These are the only ways that someone can legally come to the U.S. and work and potentially stay here:
1) Have a direct relative (parent, spouse, child) sponsor you and confirm that they will be responsible for you.
2) Be a political refuge (in fear for your life, if you stay in your home country)
3) Invest $ 1,000,000 in the U.S. economy by starting a business here, that within 3 years has to double its number of fultime employees from 3 to 6
4) Be an internationally acclaimed musician, athlete, artist, scholar, supermodel
5) Be specially trained in a job that no American can do. There have to be advertising in the local paper, looking for Americans for this job.
(Unfortunately, this last category has been abused byI.T. employment agencies that are flooding the lottery for this type of visa, so, that other companies don't have much of a chance to bring their talent over).
That's it. Those are the only ways. The average person can't apply and marrying an American would be their only chance to come to the U.S.. How many of you would be eligible to come here? How many of your relatives and friends?
Lots of mis-information, categories you listed are not accurate and there are major omissions.
There are eight categories and they are completely different than you have stated. The investor clause is part of the employment category and requires the business to be a unique business with 10 employees. There is no category for the internationally acclaimed - that is also part of the employment category. That includes researchers, scientists, doctors, human aid workers, authors and journalists. The employment category has three preference levels, which includes unskilled workers. You left out the "other category" which includes the diversity lottery, which is open to anyone as long as the country doesn't have excessive immigration to the US. The lottery is completely random so your claim that IT companies are influencing it somehow makes no sense. Individuals apply and are selected randomly. You left out the category for human trafficking and victims of abuse. You left out the category for Registry, which qualifies anyone in the US continuously since before 1972.
Source:
Geez, splitting hairs?
Do you seriously consider the visa lottery a valid way to come and stay here? 50,000 green cards pulled from 50 million applications? I participated for years and didn't get chosen - lol.
Also, my post was for people to come here. In order to get a U-visa as a victim, you'd be already here, so that also doesn't fall into my answer.
While they may have changed the wording, there's still a category that "internationally acclaimed' celebrities or whoever's won some international prizes or whatever are able to apply.
And, no, I never said that IT companies are influencing the lottery, but most H1B work based visa these days are going to those IT companies. The company that initially brought me here hasn't been able to bring anyone over in many years, even though they're a German International company and have needs for multi-language, specially trained jobs that Americans can't fill.
I'm not an attorney and don't remember the wording of everything, since English isn't my first language. But I've dealt with immigration for years. And you really sound like another Joe, who used to be on this site.