Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
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Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
As @Ihe O. wrote , it's a civil infraction, which is a NON-criminal breaking of a rule or statute, similar to jaywalking or driving without a license.
I've never heard the term 'illegal pedestrian' for a jaywalker or 'illegal driver' for someone that forgot his license.
You both have really taken this to more of a political conversation, which is a pretty far departure from what the orginal question was about. This is one of the struggles in our country. No one wants to truly debate an issue. We (notice I say "We" as to not start anything with anyone, but rather just share an observation) just learn ways of deflecting and distracting from the issues instead of answering the original questions with legitimate answers, and we just take turns talking instead of really listening to the opposition and building on a conversation that leads to resolution.
It's time for us (again, collective "Us") to just say "we don't know" when we don't know the answer to a question, even if we don't like the question.
But I have heard you reference this civil infraction idea previously in this thread. Tell me something. If someone breaks into your house, and sets up in a bedroom to live there. Would you consider them just an undocumented house guest? My guess is that you would be the first one to call the authorities and prosecute this person for their ILLEGAL activity. So, how is it different (legit question, not trying to start a fight, but rather have a conversation) when people who do not have the right to live here in the US, but get here through illegal means, and stay illegally, and take advantage of entitlements and priveledges that belong to US citizens like health care and education?
Actually, in many jurisdictions once they have taken possession of the house, they are not prosecuted and will have to be evicted
However, we need to stay clear of political disputes as it violates the rules of BP
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
As @Ihe O. wrote , it's a civil infraction, which is a NON-criminal breaking of a rule or statute, similar to jaywalking or driving without a license.
I've never heard the term 'illegal pedestrian' for a jaywalker or 'illegal driver' for someone that forgot his license.
You both have really taken this to more of a political conversation, which is a pretty far departure from what the orginal question was about. This is one of the struggles in our country. No one wants to truly debate an issue. We (notice I say "We" as to not start anything with anyone, but rather just share an observation) just learn ways of deflecting and distracting from the issues instead of answering the original questions with legitimate answers, and we just take turns talking instead of really listening to the opposition and building on a conversation that leads to resolution.
It's time for us (again, collective "Us") to just say "we don't know" when we don't know the answer to a question, even if we don't like the question.
But I have heard you reference this civil infraction idea previously in this thread. Tell me something. If someone breaks into your house, and sets up in a bedroom to live there. Would you consider them just an undocumented house guest? My guess is that you would be the first one to call the authorities and prosecute this person for their ILLEGAL activity. So, how is it different (legit question, not trying to start a fight, but rather have a conversation) when people who do not have the right to live here in the US, but get here through illegal means, and stay illegally, and take advantage of entitlements and priveledges that belong to US citizens like health care and education?
Actually, in many jurisdictions once they have taken possession of the house, they are not prosecuted and will have to be evicted
However, we need to stay clear of political disputes as it violates the rules of BP
No. I meant if someone entered into the house she was living in and started living in a bedroom. It isn't about eviciton at that point. You call the cops.
I agree Greg, so where were you about 5 pages ago when 2-3 people started making this political?
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
As @Ihe O. wrote , it's a civil infraction, which is a NON-criminal breaking of a rule or statute, similar to jaywalking or driving without a license.
I've never heard the term 'illegal pedestrian' for a jaywalker or 'illegal driver' for someone that forgot his license.
You both have really taken this to more of a political conversation, which is a pretty far departure from what the orginal question was about. This is one of the struggles in our country. No one wants to truly debate an issue. We (notice I say "We" as to not start anything with anyone, but rather just share an observation) just learn ways of deflecting and distracting from the issues instead of answering the original questions with legitimate answers, and we just take turns talking instead of really listening to the opposition and building on a conversation that leads to resolution.
It's time for us (again, collective "Us") to just say "we don't know" when we don't know the answer to a question, even if we don't like the question.
But I have heard you reference this civil infraction idea previously in this thread. Tell me something. If someone breaks into your house, and sets up in a bedroom to live there. Would you consider them just an undocumented house guest? My guess is that you would be the first one to call the authorities and prosecute this person for their ILLEGAL activity. So, how is it different (legit question, not trying to start a fight, but rather have a conversation) when people who do not have the right to live here in the US, but get here through illegal means, and stay illegally, and take advantage of entitlements and priveledges that belong to US citizens like health care and education?
Actually, in many jurisdictions once they have taken possession of the house, they are not prosecuted and will have to be evicted
However, we need to stay clear of political disputes as it violates the rules of BP
No. I meant if someone entered into the house she was living in and started living in a bedroom. It isn't about eviciton at that point. You call the cops.
I agree Greg, so where were you about 5 pages ago when 2-3 people started making this political?
Enjoying the holidays with family and watching football
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Tell me something. If someone breaks into your house, and sets up in a bedroom to live there. Would you consider them just an undocumented house guest? My guess is that you would be the first one to call the authorities and prosecute this person for their ILLEGAL activity. So, how is it different (legit question, not trying to start a fight, but rather have a conversation) when people who do not have the right to live here in the US, but get here through illegal means, and stay illegally, and take advantage of entitlements and priveledges that belong to US citizens like health care and education?
Actually, a fair comparison would be:
You live with a big family (there are many more people living in this country than just you)
and some people in your family invite someone for dinner and because they heard that they can do some things that need doing in your house, they offered to pay to fix those things. (Undocumented immigrants have been invited by many employers. There was a lot of work and workers were needed, and still are. There are industries that would collapse without).
You don't want this person around, for reasons that have nothing to do with the person itself. But because there are others living in the house, you don't have the right to say that only those who you approve of have the right to step inside.
So, this person is at your dinner table. Would you talk to them? Would you be open to finding out who they are, what they're about, what inspired them to come, what they're contributing to this country, as you might with any other visitor - or would you pretend they aren't there and rather they not fix the things that need fixing, because you haven't found someone yet that can do it for the price that you can afford. Would you rather your children keep living with the roof leaking or the electricity not working right, because you can't afford union labor and won't let this undocumented immigrant fix it?
These immigrants come here to work and not to take jobs or other thing. Don't you think that by the time one of them goes to an emergency clinic they will have tried to just wait it out and hope it goes away? They're not allowed to get health insurance. They don't want to be a burden or get the attention that a hospital creates. When they go there, that's their last step. They'll have exhausted all other options of over the counter medicine or whatever.
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
Lol
if you pay taxes on a ssn that isn’t your own how is that not identity theft? So yes, you paid the taxes, but you committed perjury signing a tax return with false info on it, which is a felony afaik. You can’t sign state and federal forms and applications with knowingly false info on it. Only the naive believe someone breaks just one law 10-20-30 years ago and then goes completely straight thereafter.
I haven’t applied for a drivers license for 25 years but I’m sure the form says you’re signing under penalty of perjury to the truthfulness of the info on the form. So I suppose you’re right if they can fill out the form truthfully without lying or stealing my identity, sure they can get a license. And since you brought up my state, I will point out to you that WSDL will on Jan 22nd no longer be acceptable photo ID to homeland security for accessing airports, that shows you how useful it will be, precisely because illegal immigrants can get it issued to them. This illustrates the negative effects of corrupting the integrity/security of a system, now my WSDL is of diminished utility and I have to have a passport. I have extra work to do, because I’m a citizen, makes sense.
Many other states extensions also run out 1.22.18 as per DHS link here:
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:
Lol
i Only the naive believe someone breaks just one law 10-20-30 years ago and then goes completely straight thereafter.
As I tried to explain earlier - being here without proper status is not breaking a law, but a non-criminal civil infraction. So, if you say that anyone that has ever jaywalked is a criminal ever after, then there won't be many people left.
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Tell me something. If someone breaks into your house, and sets up in a bedroom to live there. Would you consider them just an undocumented house guest? My guess is that you would be the first one to call the authorities and prosecute this person for their ILLEGAL activity. So, how is it different (legit question, not trying to start a fight, but rather have a conversation) when people who do not have the right to live here in the US, but get here through illegal means, and stay illegally, and take advantage of entitlements and priveledges that belong to US citizens like health care and education?
Actually, a fair comparison would be:
You live with a big family (there are many more people living in this country than just you)
and some people in your family invite someone for dinner and because they heard that they can do some things that need doing in your house, they offered to pay to fix those things. (Undocumented immigrants have been invited by many employers. There was a lot of work and workers were needed, and still are. There are industries that would collapse without).
You don't want this person around, for reasons that have nothing to do with the person itself. But because there are others living in the house, you don't have the right to say that only those who you approve of have the right to step inside.
So, this person is at your dinner table. Would you talk to them? Would you be open to finding out who they are, what they're about, what inspired them to come, what they're contributing to this country, as you might with any other visitor - or would you pretend they aren't there and rather they not fix the things that need fixing, because you haven't found someone yet that can do it for the price that you can afford. Would you rather your children keep living with the roof leaking or the electricity not working right, because you can't afford union labor and won't let this undocumented immigrant fix it?
These immigrants come here to work and not to take jobs or other thing. Don't you think that by the time one of them goes to an emergency clinic they will have tried to just wait it out and hope it goes away? They're not allowed to get health insurance. They don't want to be a burden or get the attention that a hospital creates. When they go there, that's their last step. They'll have exhausted all other options of over the counter medicine or whatever.
I am sad to see you prove my point on many levels. Good luck to you Michaela.
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
Actually yes if you break a law you’re a criminal thereafter. That’s how it works. It’s not nice and fluffy but that’s just fact. I go 70 in a 60 zone, I’m a law breaker, the egg doesn’t get uncracked.
However, my point wasn’t that, but that that law being broken (civil vs criminal is irrelevant) also leads to all the others being broken, like lying on mortgage applications with false/stolen ssn... etc as I listed before.
Go ahead and try to live for a year or two using a false ssn, see what happens. I realize most people never read what they sign they just sign things... many documents are signed attesting to accuracy under penalty of perjury, I realize some people don’t care about that, but I do. That was a contributing factor to the last “housing crisis”.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:
(civil vs criminal is irrelevant)
Again, you're not paying attention - civil is not a law and therefore not a crime. It is non-criminal. It's different from speeding, where you actually break the law of the speed limit. Just because you want to make it a crime, does not make it so. And just because you think because someone jaywalked once, they will from then on live a life of crime does not make it so.
I'm done with this thread!
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
Just wow. Assume you’re correct, what next? No one comes here illegally in a vacuum, the are here, day after day, doing things... So all illegal immigrants pay income takes on their own ssns, they aren’t lying on their 1040 and perjuring themselves when they sign? They aren’t lying on mortgage applications? Are you saying an illegal immigrant is physically incapable of committing a crime?
You are free to run your business in the manner you wish, as a landlord you’re not a “mandatory reporter”, but I’m not afraid to live up to the courage of my convictions, nor to the commitment I’ve made to maintain my CFE credential. I can’t knowingly be involved in or connected to any fraud or act of moral turpitude, in any way. This has cost me my job, it’s not a fake moral stand I’m making. There is an epidemic of fraud in America, to which I refuse to contribute to the best of my ability.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:
Actually yes if you break a law you’re a criminal thereafter. That’s how it works. It’s not nice and fluffy but that’s just fact. I go 70 in a 60 zone, I’m a law breaker, the egg doesn’t get uncracked.
However, my point wasn’t that, but that that law being broken (civil vs criminal is irrelevant) also leads to all the others being broken, like lying on mortgage applications with false/stolen ssn... etc as I listed before.
Go ahead and try to live for a year or two using a false ssn, see what happens. I realize most people never read what they sign they just sign things... many documents are signed attesting to accuracy under penalty of perjury, I realize some people don’t care about that, but I do. That was a contributing factor to the last “housing crisis”.
The supreme court rejected 9-0 the absolutism in your analysis (in an immigration case as it happens) a case in which Chief Justice Roberts had something to say about speeding tickets.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/supreme-court-citizenship-maslenjak/531315/
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
No one brought up stripping immigrants of their status for lying in their immigration process, this link has nothing to do with the discussion.
The simple truth is both things are true, one can rent to an illegal alien if they like, and, illegial aliens by definition can’t live any length of time here without break many other laws. People like me can’t participate in that, that’s all, really not that hard to understand.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
@Michaela G. is correct that just being in the US without citizenship or a visa is a civil matter. For example, if you legally entered the country on vacation and never left, that would be a civil matter. If you are caught, you are subject to deportation. If you crawled under the fence on the border, that would be a criminal action. If you used another persons social security number to get a job, that would be a criminal action.
The discussion about labeling people illegal versus undocumented is immaterial. It is really about risk for the landlord. The problem for a landlord is how can a tenant in this situation legally hold a job? At any time they could be deported and there is no recourse for the landlord. They disappear one month and you have no idea what happened. They may break the lease, leave you with damage, shorted rent, possessions everywhere, etc. You can't sue someone outside the country, so the landlord is left with the mess.
My business is run in a manner where I reduce risk and maximize profit. There is no incentive for me to rent to a high risk tenant, so I choose not to.
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
A bank robber that double parks can get a parking ticket for their civil infraction, we know. No one is arguing being here without status by itself is a felony. The fact that that’s the only thing people “opposed” in this thread keep bringing up proves what the other side is saying. I’m not talking about the snapshot in time, I’m talking about after the bank is robbed, when the robbers deposit the funds into their own account so the check they wrote to escrow to buy a cabin will clear, that act is called “structuring”, a key element in money laundering which is a felony. After they get their parking ticket and crash the getaway car in the police chase, that’s felony “evading”.
The point is the more some people are willing to double park, the more they are willing to lie on a mortgage or rental app or tax return, and the more they get away with it today the more they push their luck tomorrow. Fraudsters always have a rationalization(s), the most common ones being, “it’s just this one time” or “I really need this, my family is desperate” or “I deserve this because ________________”. The fraud almost never remains a single fraud because the financial pressure and opportunity driving their rationalization are not relieved/removed. This is settled science.
Others are happy to commit minor infractions through life and not progress to more severe offenses, the point is you can’t always tell who’s who ahead of time and by definition illegial aliens must break additional more severe laws while staying here year after year.
Bottom line is simple, if the guy referenced in the OP can’t complete the app process and then the OP rents to him, what’s the point of his app process? If the process has no meaning and not consequence based on different inputs then there’s no point, the whole exercise becomes a “Yes, Prime Minister” episode.
If you had an atm card and the pin input was irrelevant to withdrawing cash from your account, how useful would you judge it?
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Weird thread. I don't think the J-walking example is accurate, because that's a law on the books and it was broken - the city is not going to bring a civil suit for j-walking, they are going to cite a municipal violation. Now that violation may not count as criminal, but its still breaking a law and the punishment is a fine and its illegal behavior. I am not a lawyer, but I would bet I am on the money on that one. A civil matter is brought when one party harms another, usually monetary but not always, and the harm is not covered under any municipal law. For instance, you broke your neighbors mailbox by crashing into it with your bicycle or you lent someone money and they haven't paid you back - in those cases you bring a civil suit if you can not find satisfaction otherwise.
All said, this thread has made me wonder exactly what an illegal immigrant is, or is not, and I will leave here and look into it. If it is not unlawful, then "illegal" immigrant would be an improper term. I will be shocked if I find otherwise, but I will bet all persons of foreign origin are required, under some law somewhere, to be documented when in the country. Otherwise, it would be legal to be here unknown (who knows, maybe it is). It may not be classified as a felony or misdemeanor, which are usually associated with the word criminal, but if its a law and you break it, that meets the definition of illegal. LOL. While I would bet I'm right on this, I wont be shocked if I'm wrong either.
Again, interesting thread that has got me wondering.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Account Closed http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2017/dec/01/kathy-sheehan/being-undocumented-immigrant-us-not-crime/
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
I found this that seemed to provide some insight
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illega...
Looks like "improper entry" is unlawful and a criminal offense, a misdemeanor.
It also looks like "unlawful presence" is also unlawful, though is not a criminal offense.
Seems people on here have confused the different layers of unlawfulness (felony, misdemeanor, civil violation) with the term illegal. To break the law is to do something illegal. The severity of the illegal activity appears to determine the rest.
Therefore, it certainly makes sense to say an undocumented worker is in fact breaking the law, hence the appropriate term "illegal alien".
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
Whatever the labeling, from landlords POV, the quality of a potential tenant flows from the quality of their credit, income, assets, recourse and character. This can’t be assessed without a completed application. To remain here without status and fill out an application/lease, which means the applicant intents to stay for the term, means at least 3 of 5 of these take a major hit.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
@Account Closed http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2017/dec/01/kathy-sheehan/being-undocumented-immigrant-us-not-crime/
I think you confuse criminal with illegal. But what do I know, I'm no lawyer.
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
@Account Closed http://www.politifact.com/new-york/statements/2017...
And again, the last sentence of the source you cite says:
"We rate it Mostly True."
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Account Closed So we've heard it pretty clear from Politifact... "But their illegal presence is not a crime."
I wonder what the other highly regarded source of legal information, The Washington Diplomat, has to say about this.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
@Account Closed So we've heard it pretty clear from Politifact... "But their illegal presence is not a crime."
I wonder what the other highly regarded source of legal information, The Washington Diplomat, has to say about this.
I don't know if you checked out the other link I posted, but that one seems to clear it up pretty well. I too allowed myself to be a bit confused (with one of my prior posts), which is pretty easy with all the biased/agenda-based information going around on this hot-topic AND, all the weird stuff that can happen when it comes to the law. After some clarity, it seems pretty simple to me - Illegal is illegal.
- Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2017 · 310 posts · 271 votes8y
Welcome to the Al Capone School of Law.
Where it depends on what the meaning of the word “is” is... income taxes are illegal and the moon landing was faked.
Regardless the label of the status or the original act, subsequent acts are also germane to a landlords decision; assets, income, credit, recourse and character.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tyler Mullen:
To be here illegally for any length of time and in any kind of comfort means breaking many other laws. You’d have to commit identity theft to get a utility account, bank account, drivers license, insurance, tax evasions of various types including running any cash business without remitting state sales tax, employing workers without remitting L&I amounts properly, filling out I-9 federal form with false info and signing it is also a crime... when the banking system is accessed in furtherance of other crimes like tax evasion then its money laundering... using the mail in furtherance of other crimes is mail fraud, well mailing applications for credit cards or utility accounts with false info could be argued as such... as pp said, I can’t even understand how this is a topic.
Most of this is simply false.
- College Point, NY · Member since 2015 · 2 posts · 0 votes8yNone of this should be construed as legal advice. Once you are aware of it, you are responsible for it. Ask an attorney, only he can give you the correct advice. If he is not a legitimate person in the states, how can he enter into a contract?