The New 20% Pass-Through Deduction and You

The New 20% Pass-Through Deduction and You

Accountant · Bellevue, WA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 9 votes

The IRS issued more guidance on Wed, Aug 8th on the new Sec. 199A 20% pass-through deduction. But many taxpayers are wondering does this apply to real estate activities as well.

The 20% deduction applies to Qualified Business Income (QBI) from a "trade of business." Capital gains, interest income, and dividends (except from a REIT or PTP) are explicitly not included. The proposed regs are silent as to whether a rental activity is a "trade or business" but instead relies on Sec 162. Sec 163(j)(7)(A) is pretty clear that rental income does not qualify as income from a trade or business, so for purposes of the 20% deduction my guess is it's not likely to qualify either. This also likely includes those who qualify for real estate professional treatment on their taxes (i.e. those with 750+ hours of substantial involvement in real estate).

However, there are a couple areas that may apply to those involved in real estate. The CFR 1.199A mentions:

  • “Both active and passive owners of a trade or business may be entitled to a section 199A deduction”
  • “The proposed regulations extend the definition of trade or business for purposes of section 199A beyond section 162 in one circumstance. Solely for purposes of section 199A, the rental or licensing of tangible or intangible property to a related trade or business is treated as a trade or business if the rental or licensing and the other trade or business are commonly controlled…”

So what likely qualifies?

  1. Management companies – Sometimes taxpayers with lots of rentals consider forming a separate management company. Rentals pay management fees to the management company, which operates as a normal trade or business.
  2. Some operators – Depending on the structure of a real estate syndicate, if the operator receives a management fee or guaranteed payment, then the operator would have Qualified Business Income (QBI) for taking the 20% pass-through deduction. However, profits interest, carry, capital gains, and pass-through rental income do not qualify as QBI. Also, in these instances, if the operator was taxed as a partnership or S-Corp, then there would have to be an allocation to determine the applicable amount of QBI.
  3. Real estate used in a business/self-rentals – Often business owners hold real estate used by a business in a different entity and capitalize that holding entity through a self-rental agreement between the business and holding entity. Self-rentals are subject to unique rules on net rental income and losses, but there are provisions that allow for the activities to be aggregated. So a business owner would include net rental income from the holding entity with the QBI from the business in calculating their 20% deduction under the aggregation rules.
  4. “Box 1” passive investors – Passive investors who receive a K-1 with income in Box 1 “Ordinary business income (loss)” will have QBI.
  5. Realtors and other professionals – Definitely a trade or business. However, these individuals or businesses are considered Specified Service Trade or Businesses (SSTB) and QBI from a SSTB gets phased-out for high income taxpayers.

The rules are complex and there’s a lot not even mention. Taxpayers with foreign assets, multiple businesses, prior year Net Operating Losses, or reasonable officer compensation requirements have even more complex rules involved.

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Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
Moderator
Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Natalie Kolodij  many west coast Husband and wife real estate teams will not qualify for this  shoot.

Ya if it makes you feel better as a personal services business I'm getting screwed. 

Hey tax pros- learn all about this amazing deduction you can't use!!!

...Thanks. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Eamonn McElroy:

    We're expecting the finalized regs on Sec 199A any day now....although the shut-down has added a little uncertainty.

    No update at the moment as we're still (at this exact moment) working with the same temp regs we've had for the past 5 months...

    In it's most simple, distilled form, IRC Sec 199A and the related temp regs allow a 20% deduction (subject to various limitations) for a rental real estate property that rises to the level of a 'trade or business'.

    What defines a 'trade or business'?  Unfortunately nowhere in the IRC or regs is a 'trade or business' defined.  We only have case law and precedent to rely upon.  Hence why there's no brightline rules or an easy checklist to make the determination.

    This may change with the finalized regs, but for now it's advisable to have a conversation with your tax advisor about what position you'll be taking on your 2018 tax return, as he/she is best equipped to have that conversation with you, taking into consideration your holistic facts, circumstances, and goals.

     I have done my own taxes (using H&R Block). Have 4 rentals that I manage on my own and are definitely a business by any stretch. Do I need a CPA consult or will the H&R Block software ask the appropriate questions for me this year? Thanks for your feedback.

  • Accountant · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Andrey Y.

    "Do I need a CPA consult"

    I would say it depends on your comfort level continuing on with a DIY approach in the wake of the TCJA.

    "will the H&R Block software ask the appropriate questions for me this year"

    Unfortunately I have no way of knowing the answer.  I have no affiliation with H&R Block nor do I use any of their products.

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    I'll throw this out there: 

    I'm saying yes, most landlords qualify (and could potentially with even 1 rental based on tax case rulings). The only exception being NNN.

    The IRS has been pretty clear that they don't want to swim through the mud of stating a specific correlation of code 162 with rentals. So we base it on earlier precedent, tax case rulings, and guidance they have stated. 

    I have about 30 tax cases that support my stance that most landlords will qualify. If your CPA or Tax pro is flat out saying no...they haven't done the reserach. 

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Andrey Y.:
    Originally posted by @Eamonn McElroy:

    We're expecting the finalized regs on Sec 199A any day now....although the shut-down has added a little uncertainty.

    No update at the moment as we're still (at this exact moment) working with the same temp regs we've had for the past 5 months...

    In it's most simple, distilled form, IRC Sec 199A and the related temp regs allow a 20% deduction (subject to various limitations) for a rental real estate property that rises to the level of a 'trade or business'.

    What defines a 'trade or business'?  Unfortunately nowhere in the IRC or regs is a 'trade or business' defined.  We only have case law and precedent to rely upon.  Hence why there's no brightline rules or an easy checklist to make the determination.

    This may change with the finalized regs, but for now it's advisable to have a conversation with your tax advisor about what position you'll be taking on your 2018 tax return, as he/she is best equipped to have that conversation with you, taking into consideration your holistic facts, circumstances, and goals.

     I have done my own taxes (using H&R Block). Have 4 rentals that I manage on my own and are definitely a business by any stretch. Do I need a CPA consult or will the H&R Block software ask the appropriate questions for me this year? Thanks for your feedback.

     Great question.  My industry software isn't even finalized yet.  Schedule E and ALL of my business returns are marked NOT FINAL - DO NOT FILE.  Some forms just come up blank with a huge watermark across it - no attempt at formatting at all.

    As of today, I would highly doubt that any of the consumer software has finished its programming, so it's tough to say.  Once the regs are finalized, I'm sure they will try their best to have it done properly, but everything is last minute right now, so you get what you get.

  • Daniel DietzPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Reedsburg, WI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 857 votes
    7y

    Could one of you Pros chime in on a detail I have seen come up in converstaions here and elsewhere please?

    Besides real estate, which show a 'tax loss' so this is a non issue for that, I ALSO have a 'day job' of being a partner in a kithcen & bath remodeling firm that is family run. We do K-1s and operate as a multi member LLC.

    The two of us each take a monthly 'draw' since we cant 'take a paycheck' so to speak. That montly amount has remained steady (and reasonable for what we do) over the last few years, and then at the END of the year, we 'split the extra'. In two of the last 3 years there was substantial 'extra', in the other it only amounted to about 1K. One year we actually had a 'negative' at the end of the year and had to reduce our 'capital basis' ( I think that is the wording) by how much we were 'over drawn' on our month draws.

    I read that 'guaranteed payments to partners' is NOT eligible for the 20% pass through, only 'the end of year profit' is? Is what we are doing eligible or not?

    We are going to talking to our tax pro too, but just wanted some feed back here and it might help others too. 

    Thanks, Dan Dietz

  • Accountant · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Daniel Dietz

    First we'd have to examine your projected AGI.

    If you're above the phase-out level (SSTB)/phase-in limitation level (non-SSTB), then we'd have to examine what 'trades or businesses' the partnership is involved in.

    If above those levels:

    If SSTB, generally you would not be eligible for the QBI deduction for that trade or business.

    If not a SSTB, we'd have to examine the W-2 expenses and UBIA of qualified property.  It may be advisable to group trades or businesses under Prop Reg 1.199A-4 in this situation if the limitation is phased in to maximize the QBI deduction.  Grouping (aggregating) under IRC Sec 199A is completely unrelated to the grouping elections under IRC Sec 469.  Pretty flexible here...

    Not a simple answer...we need way more facts to dial things in.

    What does your tax pro say?  Has he/she given you a position and projected implication based on your prior year return?  Things you can do differently?

  • Accountant · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Linda Weygant

    What software do you use Linda?  Feel free to PM me.  Mine is good to go for business tax returns and individuals at the federal level.  (although individuals will be queued and submitted once the IRS starts accepting them in late January)

    I have not submitted any calendar 12/31/2018 returns yet and have advised clients that waiting for software updates and patches may be the best course of action considering the TCJA and the prime-time government shut down.

    The states are iffy (as is to be expected on January 12th) but daily updates and patches are getting them where they need to be by February.

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Eamonn McElroy:

    @Linda Weygant

    What software do you use Linda?  Feel free to PM me.  Mine is good to go for business tax returns and individuals at the federal level.  (although individuals will be queued and submitted once the IRS starts accepting them in late January)

    I have not submitted any calendar 12/31/2018 returns yet and have advised clients that waiting for software updates and patches may be the best course of action considering the TCJA and the prime-time government shut down.

    The states are iffy (as is to be expected on January 12th) but daily updates and patches are getting them where they need to be by February.

     I use Lacerte.  We get weekly updates and this week's updates has the vast majority of 1040 forms, except Schedule E.  None of the business returns are marked final in any of the form.  1065, 1120S and 1120 all have big DO NOT FILE watermarks across them.

    Lacerte pushes updates out on Tuesdays, so we'll see what happens day after tomorrow...

    What do you use?  Lot's of colleagues like Drake, but I've been using Lacerte for 20 years and the two years that I was helping a friend out in his office and using Drake were highly inefficient and frustrating for me.  Drake is cheaper, but I just can't make the switch - not after 20 years of knowing the intricacies of Lacerte....

  • Accountant · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Linda Weygant

    PMing you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, NC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Natalie Kolodij:

    I'll throw this out there: 

    I'm saying yes, most landlords qualify (and could potentially with even 1 rental based on tax case rulings). The only exception being NNN.

    The IRS has been pretty clear that they don't want to swim through the mud of stating a specific correlation of code 162 with rentals. So we base it on earlier precedent, tax case rulings, and guidance they have stated. 

    I have about 30 tax cases that support my stance that most landlords will qualify. If your CPA or Tax pro is flat out saying no...they haven't done the reserach. 

    @Natalie Kolodij My tax pro agreed based on some tax law refresher training she attends each year in December.  BTW, please change your header. You are no longer from Washington, you are from the great state of North Carolina and Tarheels want credit for you. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Tacoma, WA · Member since 2018 · 113 posts · 149 votes
    7y

    I assume by now that people have read Brandon Hall's excellent article IRS Code Section 199A: How the New 20% Pass-Through Deduction Affects Investors

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