Bitcoin continues to become the most pristine collateral asset

Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes

Milo, a US-based lender is now offering bitcoin-backed mortgages with no downpayment, no credit requirement, no DTI, no bank statements, and 100% financing. This is the start of exciting disruption and innovation as the digital assets space matures and further melds with traditional and antiquated finance.

Stack sats, use them to fund real estate without sacrificing the appreciation, invest the gains from real estate to stack more sats, repeat.

Bitcoin is the most pristine collateral asset that exists today.

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Bob E.

Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I still think Bitcoin has as much value as Dutch tulip bulbs. But hey, maybe this time really is is different.

It will be interesting to watch how the crypto market does during the coming recession.

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Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
I hear you Mike.
0 Reply
Dave Carter
Rental Property Investor · Springfield, IL · Member since 2020 · 36 posts · 35 votes
4y
@Mike Hern That’s not how this works. Your Bitcoin is not stored on a single computer. The blockchain is accessible from many places like your phone, your computer, or a wallet. As long as you record your key phrase, the idea of dropping your laptop off a cruise ship and losing all of your Bitcoin just isn’t a realistic fear.
5 Reply
Eric Bilderback
Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
Here is what I don't understand about Bitcoin.
People say you can't print or increase the supply of them unlike fiat currency, that sounds great. But the people who run all the governments or at least most of them including Uncle Sam will not allow some Crypto to be used to conduct transactions across the world. The world for a long time could trust the dollar because it represented the civic society of America and it was decent and strong, Bitcoin might go up in value but it can not replace that. People want Bitcoin to solve a political problem and it cannot.
When people were trying to donate to the truckers in Canada the Canadian government cut off bitcoin donations. There is no way out of the matrix. LOL
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Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Crypto adoption is in the early rounds of the fight you stage in some parts of the world. We'll get to a point where governments have no choice but to accept it if they want to participate in global markets. We're already seeing this happen in multiple countries with several more to come over the next few years. It's pretty clear major world powers (outside of China) are not planning on banning digital assets. If this was their goal it would have happened a long time ago. They are going to incorporate it into their financial system to stay ahead of technology.

Those that try to ban it will push all wealth, innovation, and intelligence outside their borders, and we've seen how effective prohibition is at driving adoption.

Bitcoin isn't trying to replace the dollar, it's simply another option if you want to wake up from life in the matrix.
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Account Closed
Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
4y
It is extremely naive to believe that you can create a parallel currency outside a governments financial system. Was it Lenin who said "Power comes from the barrel of a gun". Your "free" bitcoin runs on servers powered by electricity controlled by governments. And tomorrow it can be outlawed with the stroke of a pen and enforced by the above mentioned barrel. Bitcoin is far too volatile to be used as a day to day currency. As a risk asset class, sure, you can take a flyer on it.
8 Reply
Account Closed
Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Dave Carter:

@Mike Hern That’s not how this works. Your Bitcoin is not stored on a single computer. The blockchain is accessible from many places like your phone, your computer, or a wallet. As long as you record your key phrase, the idea of dropping your laptop off a cruise ship and losing all of your Bitcoin just isn’t a realistic fear.

Just curious then - why does this guy want his drive so much?
3. You buy a new computer and you accidentally throw away the wrong computer

Man who accidentally threw out a bitcoin fortune offers $70 million for permission to dig it up

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/15...
1 Reply
Account Closed
Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2015 · 65 posts · 31 votes
4y
This is a really dumb conversation.

You don't get Bitcoin? Doesn't matter. You calculate (or ask someone like me) the expected future return. You say what's the odds of that happening? For me it's a high percentage. For you it maybe low.

Then you allocate accordingly. Good investors understands that it's better to hold 1% just in case Bitcoiners are right than hold none. And if it goes to 0, you only lose 1%.

But hey maybe this Ray Dalio guy is an idiot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDxx0wC3-p8

The banks closed in Ukraine and these guys used Bitcoin to buy a car and flee? Don't they know how dangerous Bitcoin is! It's going to 0!!! Should have just waited for a Russian tank for a lift:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZtDDaWvPk&t=62s

Ken Griffin admitting he was wrong about crypto! SIGN OF WEAKNESS! Never do that: https://youtu.be/kIFQd7MyNKE?t=248

Warren Buffett quietly investing 1B in crypto, must have lost his marbles: https://coinjournal.net/news/w...

Look at all these idiots buying stock in a company that holds 125,000 BTC. Vanguard, Blackrock, Morgan Stanley? What do they know.

Time to start shorting boys.
9 Reply
Jaron WallingPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
4y
"it doesn't take much to see the current way of doing things is not sustainable." - BitCoin

1 Reply
Matthew McNeil
Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes
4y
You lost me at "My understanding..."

0 Reply
Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
@Account Closed Bitcoin wallets can be accessed on multiple devices if you have the seed phrase allowing you to use the wallet's private key (this is similar to PGP encryption created in the 90s). The guy you keep referencing lost his seed phrase thus the only way to get his wallet is on the original device he loaded it on. If he had his seed phrase he would not need his original drive.
Self-custody comes with responsibility. One day you'll be able to manage much more than just money yourself. The world woke up to this with data a few years ago and is continuing down this path with NFTs and web3. Eventually, we'll see important documents, identities, health records, etc. stored on blockchains where you have discretion on who gets access.

@Matthew McNeil Maybe read past the first two words of the post for a better understanding?
If anyone is interested, DM me and I'll do a free Q&A session about this stuff. It seems there are a lot of knowledge gaps here.
3 Reply
Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
@Account Closed Agreed. I think people realize Bitcoin isn't killing the existing system, nor is that the goal. Crypto improves the global financial system, not replaces it.

Bitcoin has never been hacked, operates 24/7 across the globe with 0 downtime, offers near-instant settlement, and doesn't require trust in a third party. Can we say the same for any bank, credit card company, or the like? That in and of itself is a MASSIVE improvement compared to SWIFT, ACH, Venmo, or any payment rail. Not to mention the sound money principles Bitcoin was created with (pseudo-privacy, self-custody, immutability, or a fixed and transparent issuance schedule to name a few).

The narrative of bitcoin being a currency is inaccurate at least in today's market. People need to stop thinking about it like that. It much better resembles digital gold, digital property, digital energy, or other scarce assets rather than a medium of exchange.

Also, bitcoin is not free nor is bitcoin mining. Those days are gone.
1 Reply
Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Rob Kishi:

Good investors should believe in what they invest in Joe, you knew that right?

There's no such thing as a get-rich-quick scheme, and be careful playing with fire if you can't handle the heat. You might get burned.
Well, I do admire your passion,...and your knowledge of cliche's. Now even your cliche's are making my point.
1 Reply
Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
@Joe Villeneuve
"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try and convince you, sorry."
- Satoshi Nakamoto
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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Rob Kishi:

@Account Closed Agreed. I think people realize Bitcoin isn't killing the existing system, nor is that the goal. Crypto improves the global financial system, not replaces it.

Bitcoin has never been hacked, operates 24/7 across the globe with 0 downtime, offers near-instant settlement, and doesn't require trust in a third party. Can we say the same for any bank, credit card company, or the like? That in and of itself is a MASSIVE improvement compared to SWIFT, ACH, Venmo, or any payment rail. Not to mention the sound money principles Bitcoin was created with (pseudo-privacy, self-custody, immutability, or a fixed and transparent issuance schedule to name a few).

The narrative of bitcoin being a currency is inaccurate at least in today's market. People need to stop thinking about it like that. It much better resembles digital gold, digital property, digital energy, or other scarce assets rather than a medium of exchange.

Also, bitcoin is not free nor is bitcoin mining. Those days are gone.
You do realize that the "3rd party..." you are referring to is actually there as an oversight...not a restriction as you see it. The fact you claim there is none in place with bitcoin scares me even more.

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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Rob Kishi:

@Joe Villeneuve
"If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try and convince you, sorry."
- Satoshi Nakamoto
I am simply asking questions. You comment here tells me a lot. You could have said, "If you don't believe it or understand it, I don't have the time to teach you, sorry". Instead you said, "If you don't believe it or get it, I don't have the time to try and convince you, sorry".
1 Reply
Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
@Joe Villeneuve It's a quote dude lol. That would be plagiarism...
1 Reply
Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Rob Kishi:

@Joe Villeneuve It's a quote dude lol. That would be plagiarism...
No, that would be using your own words...instead of using someone else's. Like I said earlier, your mastery of cliche's, and now the use of quotes, is impressive. I like to use them as well,...just not as a replacement for my own thoughts.
0 Reply
Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
I appreciate the kind words Joe!
I always knew I would be a cliche master one day.
0 Reply
Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Rob Kishi:

I appreciate the kind words Joe!
I always knew I would be a cliche master one day.
LOL. Everyone is good at something. I'm still searching for what I'm good at. I keep asking my wife and daughter, but I get nothing.
3 Reply
John M.
Investor · Fairfax, VA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 803 votes
4y
If someone steels your credit cards you have protection through the banking system. If someone steels your bitcoin good luck getting it back...you won't! I don't deny that the blockchain technology has merit and hopefully someday all our REAL ESTATE transactions will be digitized, but as far as using a volatile asset (bitcoin) to support a stable asset (real estate) seems unwise.
3 Reply
Larry Turowski
Flipper/Rehabber · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
I don’t understand a lot about bitcoin or cryptocurrency except 1) that it is very volatile and 2) it seems to be going up and up. I’d like to get in on the up and up part but I can’t handle the volatility and I don’t understand enough about it overall to invest.
Most people don’t understand how the USD works except 1) it is not very volatile and 2) it loses a little value every year (inflation). I know more about it than many but I didn’t always but these two points made me feel safe trading dollars for real estate and, in fact, I felt less safe holding onto dollars.
What I do know about the USD, as with other national currencies is that government fees and taxes are required to be paid with them so that requires people to acquire them. I know money is created ideally based on assets (as opposed to gold) so when it is created that way it is indeed backed by more than trust. I know that way too much of it is backed by treasuries which is just the snake eating it’s tail and that is troubling but not yet unmanageable, astonishingly.
Cryptocurrency could also be backed by assets, why not? Someone could lend you a bitcoin with your house as collateral. But I don’t think cryptocurrency is currently being lent and that would be problematic for running an economy. And no government is requiring fees or taxes to be paid in cryptocurrency so there is nothing enforcing people seeking it out.
So there’s my “two cents.”
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Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
With crypto comes responsibility. If you don't trust yourself, use a custodian or your grandkids.

Skepticism is expected whenever there are disruptive technological shifts in society. Think about the general sentiment around the first automobile, airplane, computer, mobile phone, or the internet. There are continuous periods of fear, uncertainty, and doubt until people eventually don't know life without it. Crypto is being adopted faster than any tech model we've seen in history and will be a part of the future whether you, I, or any regulator believes it will or not.

I'd suggest exploring Metcalfe's law or Reed's law if you'd like to learn more about the significance of network effects in the digitally connected world we live in, or look at the growth history of Facebook, Google, Apple, etc.

source: https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI/s...

It is normally a good sign when the majority disagree or don't yet know how to value these shifts, as it means you're early. Fade the herd.

Here's a reminder of how the internet was viewed back in 1995: link
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Matthew M.
Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 86 posts · 86 votes
4y
@Rob Kishi this has gone a bit off the rails and I’m not sure why so much hate. This seems like a pretty innovative lending product. Many people have bitcoin but haven’t unlocked the purchasing power of it because they are hoping it appreciates more or they don’t want to pay the capital gains. However there is almost a trillion dollars of BTC out there and platforms like these help unlock that value for real estate purposes, assuming they can execute.
3 Reply
Gary L Wallman
Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
4y
Quote from @Bob E.:

I still think Bitcoin has as much value as Dutch tulip bulbs. But hey, maybe this time really is is different.
It will be interesting to watch how the crypto market does during the coming recession.

I have to agree with Bob. Not that Bitcoin will necessarily be worthless. I just don't see how something with such an unstable value can ever be considered money. One of the inherent qualities of money MUST be a stable value and store of that value. Bitcoin is 67k one day and 37k 4 weeks later. No thanks.
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Rob Kishi
OP
Investor · Oakland CA & Las Vegas NV · Member since 2019 · 72 posts · 112 votes
4y
Bitcoin isn't money @Gary L Wallman. In the United States, bitcoin is classified as property. Think of it more like digital gold rather than a currency and it makes more sense.

I'll happily take volatile appreciation over guaranteed depreciation any day.
source: https://howmuch.net/articles/r...
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