When is it OK to talk about money?
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
When is it OK to talk about money?
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Omaha, NE · Member since 2020 · 611 posts · 665 votes
4yI love, love, love this discussion. Talking about money should be as natural as talking about the weather. Those of us who have it, by and large, worked for it. Like you, I grew up poor. Not government-cheese-poor, but grape-drink-and-bologna-on-Wonder-Bread poor.
No one taught me how to make or spend money. The extent of my financial education was from my dad, and I'm grateful to him that he tried anything. We used the cash-in-envelopes system. All that taught me was that my meager paycheck didn't go very far.
I knew a few wealthy people around us, but you couldn't go up to them and ask, how'd you do it? And I knew a lot of people who looked wealthy, but lived way above their means.
I'm frankly lucky to have stumbled onto a resource on YouTube that changed my life. YouTube! I'm a millionaire because I saw a video on YouTube. That's both sad and fortunate. The evil empire isn't all bad, I guess. But anyway, that early video was one of Clayton Morris's and I watched a ton of his stuff, then found, who I thought was an inferior educator, Brandon Turner. (Yes, humble pie, history proved me wrong.) That set up the real estate investing.
But at the same time, I came across videos about velocity banking, infinite banking, and money management. Those are the ones that showed me the tragedy of what we're doing. By hiding our wealth, refusing to talk about money, bowing to people who get uncomfortable with money talks, and people who accuse us of bragging, we're participating in their enslavement to banks.
People actually think thirty-year mortgages are a good thing! People thing their primary home is an asset! People believe the stock market is the surest way to build wealth! People buy brand new cars off the lot with money they don't have, take trips to the beach with credit cards they can't repay.
Talk about money. Say to people, I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I came from government cheese and now I sleep on a mattress of Benjamins with a pillow of solid gold and you can too, with relative ease and speed.
Just by paying attention to where money goes first, you can quadruple your wealth in two years and not even notice a difference in your lifestyle. That's a start. Imagine if you used that new wealth to buy assets. But I'm rambling. Please talk more about money. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be ashamed.
47 Replies
- Property Manager · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 73 votes4y
@Nathan G.
Great question.
When’s a good time to talk about money?
Grant Cardon I have to quote him since I **** on him a lot. If the other person cringes when you talk about money it’s not there fault it’s your fault for not teaching them about it.
Everything’s a process.
2 things that keep the investor motivated.
Being born poor and acknowledging it and being born in the greatest country in the world. That’s luck (Warren buffet)
The mistakes people make in there early years of investing is (I Did) is thinking everyone wants to hear about it. (People mistake your confidence for arrogance)
What this learning process taught me was that if these so called (family members, friends, girlfriend etc) can’t get on the bandwagon then stop and think, if it is worth it to continue. Only start talking about business when someone asks and then start TEACHING them about what you do. One way to reach is to buy the RICH DAD POOR DAD GAME. GETTING OUT OF THE RAT RACE.
Those that don’t understand or care. My suggestion is to cut communication quick. These are the types of people who will suck the entrepreneurial energy out of you and make you doubt yourself.
Go make a billion dollars and help end homelessness. you’ll still have haters. But hey that’s what’s it all about. Motivation
Hope that helps
Angel
- Real Estate Syndicator · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2018 · 903 posts · 1k+ votes4y
If in doing so, you have intent of goodwill, always. I find it interesting, and always have, how our society belittles those with success and good financial situations. Even in the responses, it's plain that being wealthy is not looked upon in strength, nor encouraged to speak about.
The more people who change this non helpful belief, by spreading the wealth through knowledge, the greater change on the world for the better.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Excellent points, everyone.
It doesn't help when we have so many people believing wealth is only gained by stomping on others. Again, talking about it would quash these false beliefs and help improve perceptions.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Appraiser · Valparaiso, IN · Member since 2015 · 121 posts · 62 votes4y
Nathan congratulations that is quite a rise to fortune. I wish it was easier to talk about. Some people will tell you everything and others get upset when you even try to discuss money. My wife and I have recently hit a milestone net worth due to our Real Estate investments. Even though it’s not that big of a deal, it kind of is. I feel like I have made it and yes, if prices drop so will our net worth. I have tried to stay humble over the years, but lately it’s hard. As our income increases from our properties and my business, I get numb to dollar amounts and start thinking oh xxxx amount of dollars is nothing. I have told very few people and feel like an axx hole for telling them. Yet I am proud and want to shout out success from the roof tops. I know that being humble is always best. Staying frugal also gets harder. Lately even discussing money with my parents and my wife seems uncomfortable. So for me I will try to forget about it and keep it all in my head. Try not to let any spill out my mouth.
- 4yJoe VilleneuvePro MemberPlymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
In 2005 my oldest brother asked me how my house sale was going. I mentioned it went under contract in three days and we were making $125,000 profit. I was in the military and would be considered lower middle-income at the time, so this profit was pure luck and a real blessing. I only answered his question, but later learned he felt I was "bragging" about it.
We grew up poor (I would pay good money for more of that government cheese if anyone has a source!) but all my siblings are now middle class. I've worked hard to grow a successful business, a strong investment portfolio, and am now part of the evil 1%. I try to keep it on the down-low with everyone, not just my family, but they do know I own investment property, that I travel quite a bit, etc. Even when they ask questions about how many properties/units I have, I try to play it down (without lying) and then change subjects quickly. I just learned my mom has been referring to me as her "millionaire son" even though I've never told any of them what I earn or what I'm worth.
Anyway, I'm just throwing this question out for my own curiosity: when do you feel it's safe to discuss income or net worth with others? Do you feel it's better to lie about it so they never know anything?
I never talk about money. My feelings are it's nobody else's business. PArtly because of what you wrote above, but mostly as a way of protecting the properties...and my partners. The last thing I want is to expose a property I'm partnered on, and something not so nice happens, that exposes my partner too.
So, whenever asked, my answers are always the same:
"I have partners to protect, so I don't discuss any specifics about any properties I'm involved with".
...and I always recommend my students do the same.
- Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 975 votes4y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Doug Spence:
@Nathan Gesner I don't understand why there is such taboo around talking candidly about money and finances. That taboo has negatively contributed to people's awareness of personal finance and education. If more people talked about topics like avoiding consumer debt, investing in retirement accounts, and delaying gratification, you would see more people in better financial situations. Instead, we have a consumer society focused on feeling good and looking good right now, fueled by credit cards, car loans, and payday lenders.
To answer your question, OP: the sooner the better! I'm not ashamed of what I've created and no one else should be either.
This is exactly right! There are basic, proven principles that anyone can learn and employ to improve their lives. The average household earns $67,000 and has $16,000 in debt, not including their mortgage. That's almost 25% of their annual income in debt and it keeps growing.
Wow those statistics are depressing. 67k/year and 16k in debt. This is why we should be talking more about finances! Why is there such a taboo?!
- Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 975 votes4y
@Joe Villeneuve I totally agree that talking specifics about properties you own with partners is not a good idea. But what if you were sharing real estate concepts and knowledge with people who could use it? You wouldn't be putting yourself or your partners at risk, and you would be helping those in need.
- 4yJoe VilleneuvePro MemberPlymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
Originally posted by @Doug Spence:
@Joe Villeneuve I totally agree that talking specifics about properties you own with partners is not a good idea. But what if you were sharing real estate concepts and knowledge with people who could use it? You wouldn't be putting yourself or your partners at risk, and you would be helping those in need.
I still don't talk about my properties. I don't need to. I always use examples of actual properties so what I way has merit....not just mine.
- Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes4y
Seek like-minded peers informally or formally through a mastermind, and share stories, questions, opportunities, and hold one another accountable. More people are discussing money and investing...that's where it's happening.
- Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes4y
For this can be said of men in general: that they are ungrateful, fickle, hypocrites and dissemblers, avoiders of dangers, greedy for gain; and while you benefit them, they are entirely yours, offering you their blood, their goods, their life, their children,...when need is far away, but when you actually become needy, they turn away.
-- Niccolo Machiavelli
As long as I keep that quote firmly in mind, I find I have very little need to blab about my business and and its profitability outside of Bigger Pockets.
- Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Excellent points, everyone.
It doesn't help when we have so many people believing wealth is only gained by stomping on others. Again, talking about it would quash these false beliefs and help improve perceptions.
Come on, Nathan, next you're going to tell us real estate is really full of saints and angels. Butter wouldn't melt in all our mouths. Heartwarming stories, Hallmark movies, cotton candy and balloons 24/7, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor as thyself.
Every single time I drive by one of my rentals during normal business hours and I see my tenant's car parked in front, it annoys me. I want them OUT THERE. I want them EARNING, God damn it. Why are they taking the day off, loafin' around? THE RENT'S TOO LOW! I start planning the increase letter right there, I do. - Chicago · Member since 2018 · 214 posts · 165 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jody Sperling:
People actually think thirty-year mortgages are a good thing! People thing their primary home is an asset! People believe the stock market is the surest way to build wealth! People buy brand new cars off the lot with money they don't have, take trips to the beach with credit cards they can't repay.
I like most of what you're saying except for this. A 30 year mortgage is GREAT in times of high inflation. You pay off the loan with future cheaper dollars. Nothing wrong with that. For most, the home is the greatest asset. It is the asset that will have the most equity since most folks own it the longest. And that's not wrong. Nor is building wealth in the stock market. Bitcoin is appreciating at 100% per year. I know of no greater way to build wealth over longer time frame than buying RE and Bitcoin.
- Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Tom O.:
I would really love to know how many Jewish investors are putting their money in Bitcoin.
Tom, have you read Executive Order 6102, which Roosevelt used to confiscate gold in the USA in 1933? The unbelievable bullcrap Roosevelt got away with using in the early 1930s to denounce gold ownership as "hoarding" in America was deftly tied into the then-widespread and largely condoned anti-Semitism in this country, which Roosevelt very much shared as a matter of course.
That American Jews tended to trust gold investments over others meant that Roosevelt's gold edict disproportionately stole more from them versus other ethnic groups in the country (most notably white Anglo-Saxon Protestants like Roosevelt). It tied very neatly into the race-baiting happening in Germany at the time. "Look, the Americans are doing it, too..."Power is never innocent, Tom. Never, ever, ever, ever. Power does not play by the rules. Power does not respect spreadsheets or laws or lives.
I completely believe that when the economy goes south, and we know it will given what we know of the business cycle, Bitcoin holders will be heavily demonized by the powers that be. Just how bad this will get is anybody's guess.
On the eve of Hitler's invasion of Poland, he sent around a copy of a speech to his commanders called "the Obersalzberg Speech." The speech concludes:
Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?Fun fact: it took 106 years for the USA to admit that the Turkish people committed genocide and tried to murder every Armenian they could find from 1915-1917.
When was the last time you heard that Franklin Delano Roosevelt, generally acclaimed by Americans as our third finest President, ordered a gold grab in America in 1933, and that it disproportionately hurt American Jews versus American Protestants, who tended to keep more of their wealth in real estate and corporate investments? Who, after all, speaks of that today?
I just don't see good outcomes for Bitcoin once you accept governments ain't gonna play nicey-nicey when their power to control money is well and truly threatened.
- Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Tom O.:
Originally posted by @Jody Sperling:
People actually think thirty-year mortgages are a good thing! People thing their primary home is an asset! People believe the stock market is the surest way to build wealth! People buy brand new cars off the lot with money they don't have, take trips to the beach with credit cards they can't repay.
I like most of what you're saying except for this. A 30 year mortgage is GREAT in times of high inflation. You pay off the loan with future cheaper dollars. Nothing wrong with that. For most, the home is the greatest asset. It is the asset that will have the most equity since most folks own it the longest. And that's not wrong. Nor is building wealth in the stock market. Bitcoin is appreciating at 100% per year. I know of no greater way to build wealth over longer time frame than buying RE and Bitcoin.
Just like the Dutch tulip bulb market.
- Rental Property Investor · Ithaca, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes4y
@Nathan G.
My parents moved to FL. While my Dad and I were on his new boat, I met the guy who docks next to my Dad. He told me he owns 150 million in RE. But I had to tell him I do Airbnbs before he mentioned what he owned. So I guess, after someone tells you they own real estate?
- Investor · MI · Member since 2015 · 227 posts · 478 votes4y
As a general rule for myself, I keep it fairly tight around people who I know have less than me.
I'll tell them what I do, and if they press how many units I have, but never real numbers unless they're really persistent in which case I'll drop a percentage "my last deal I got a 20% return, I was really excited about that".
Around people who are hustling I don't mind sharing numbers at all. Mostly curious about how different strategies are returning, and trying to figure out how I can adjust, or incorporate some of their strategies in my own investing, or sharing ways I have succeeded. I find people who are out actually hustling are competitive, but not jealous like those who are sitting on a career W2 job often seem to be.
- Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 33 posts · 15 votes4y
@Nathan G.
There are two contexts here
1) personally how much you’re worth what you’re making etc
2) anonymously and money concepts as ideas or learning info
For 1 probably talk about it anytime that you’re okay with it changing a personal relationship dynamic or when you know the other person is on equal footing. Regardless of whether or not talking about money shouldn’t change an interpersonal dynamic, it does. You have the ability do do things others can’t, you did things others didn’t, and thus people will compare themselves to you.
For 2 in the context of an ig account or YouTube account or on BiggerPockets probably when you’re passionate about helping and teaching others and that outweighs the downsides from number 1
- Handyman · MN · Member since 2020 · 92 posts · 46 votes4y
At a recent holiday event: So-and-so talks about the lease on their brand new truck, someone else mentions the modern marvel that is a traeger grill, or an insta-pot. Pre- Christmas junk sold on Black Friday, or who had the best pumpkin lattes of the season. While the conversation flows a constant interruption from a phone chiming each time the wind blows a leaf in front of a doorbell.
It's not wrong to talk about it, and there is no reason to ever feel guilty about having it. There's just people who don't have any concept of it.
- Member since 2019 · 63 posts · 60 votes4y
@Nathan G. Love the original post, love the thread. Keep it up, and don’t forget to take a second, look around, and enjoy what’s been built.
- Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2020 · 562 posts · 554 votes4y
@Nathan G. The short answer is that it can be a hard discussion. Mostly because it’s not about the money. It’s about the mindset. Those of us that are in the game just fundamentally have a different mindset. When you talk about money, most people just don’t get it because they don’t have the mindset to understand. That is why they respond with jealousy or resentment or whatever.
In the past when I would try to talk to my kids about money they would just crinkle up their faces and look at me like I had 3 heads. Then I gave them a copy of Rich Dad with a letter in the back that said don’t open until you read the whole book. The letter explained my “why” and related the concepts from the book to my life. Plus I included a check for a few hundred bucks with the caveat that they had to buy an asset. Suddenly they were asking me questions, and at least understood that there was a different level to the game.
The book shifted their mindset a bit, the money gave them a tool to learn. Now we can talk without roadblocks and they are on their way.
- Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes4y
I think it is important to talk about money but with the disclaimer. Recently I spoke to a family member and we were discussing money. I told him, "I'm going to tell you information about our financial position not to brag but in an effort to have a meaningful discussion. Imagine if we never spoke about money, then how would we know that women get paid less than men?" Many, including myself, came from a position where we were told people who are very well off were either lucky (lottery or "right place, right time") or extremely smart (like an Elon Musk). I'm not a millionaire (yet) but on track (looking like Q1 of 2023) and I'm neither of those scenarios. I just work hard and surround myself with people smarter than me that are willing to have that discussion.
By having the discussion, you are opening the opportunity to let others know that they can be there too.
If we don't discuss, how do we grow?
- Omaha, NE · Member since 2020 · 611 posts · 665 votes4y
Originally posted by @Tom O.:
Originally posted by @Jody Sperling:
People actually think thirty-year mortgages are a good thing! People thing their primary home is an asset! People believe the stock market is the surest way to build wealth! People buy brand new cars off the lot with money they don't have, take trips to the beach with credit cards they can't repay.
I like most of what you're saying except for this. A 30 year mortgage is GREAT in times of high inflation. You pay off the loan with future cheaper dollars. Nothing wrong with that. For most, the home is the greatest asset. It is the asset that will have the most equity since most folks own it the longest. And that's not wrong. Nor is building wealth in the stock market. Bitcoin is appreciating at 100% per year. I know of no greater way to build wealth over longer time frame than buying RE and Bitcoin.
I understand where you're coming from, @Tom O., but I still think home ownership is a prison and not a blessing, unless people use their homes to produce wealth by forcing appreciation. Otherwise they are settling for giving less to the next generation.
At least, rent. It's proven to be cheaper, and invest the difference. And there's no way I can argue with the 5,000% increase in Bitcoin over the past 4 years, but I can say that my returns on investment houses have been infinite in several cases.
I bought, rehabbed, rented and refinanced all without using my money, which allowed me to do the same thing over again. Now someone else's money is making me infinite returns. So I'll stand by my original conclusion.
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