When is it OK to talk about money?
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
When is it OK to talk about money?
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Omaha, NE · Member since 2020 · 611 posts · 665 votes
4yI love, love, love this discussion. Talking about money should be as natural as talking about the weather. Those of us who have it, by and large, worked for it. Like you, I grew up poor. Not government-cheese-poor, but grape-drink-and-bologna-on-Wonder-Bread poor.
No one taught me how to make or spend money. The extent of my financial education was from my dad, and I'm grateful to him that he tried anything. We used the cash-in-envelopes system. All that taught me was that my meager paycheck didn't go very far.
I knew a few wealthy people around us, but you couldn't go up to them and ask, how'd you do it? And I knew a lot of people who looked wealthy, but lived way above their means.
I'm frankly lucky to have stumbled onto a resource on YouTube that changed my life. YouTube! I'm a millionaire because I saw a video on YouTube. That's both sad and fortunate. The evil empire isn't all bad, I guess. But anyway, that early video was one of Clayton Morris's and I watched a ton of his stuff, then found, who I thought was an inferior educator, Brandon Turner. (Yes, humble pie, history proved me wrong.) That set up the real estate investing.
But at the same time, I came across videos about velocity banking, infinite banking, and money management. Those are the ones that showed me the tragedy of what we're doing. By hiding our wealth, refusing to talk about money, bowing to people who get uncomfortable with money talks, and people who accuse us of bragging, we're participating in their enslavement to banks.
People actually think thirty-year mortgages are a good thing! People thing their primary home is an asset! People believe the stock market is the surest way to build wealth! People buy brand new cars off the lot with money they don't have, take trips to the beach with credit cards they can't repay.
Talk about money. Say to people, I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I came from government cheese and now I sleep on a mattress of Benjamins with a pillow of solid gold and you can too, with relative ease and speed.
Just by paying attention to where money goes first, you can quadruple your wealth in two years and not even notice a difference in your lifestyle. That's a start. Imagine if you used that new wealth to buy assets. But I'm rambling. Please talk more about money. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be ashamed.
47 Replies
- Omaha, NE · Member since 2020 · 611 posts · 665 votes4y
I love, love, love this discussion. Talking about money should be as natural as talking about the weather. Those of us who have it, by and large, worked for it. Like you, I grew up poor. Not government-cheese-poor, but grape-drink-and-bologna-on-Wonder-Bread poor.
No one taught me how to make or spend money. The extent of my financial education was from my dad, and I'm grateful to him that he tried anything. We used the cash-in-envelopes system. All that taught me was that my meager paycheck didn't go very far.
I knew a few wealthy people around us, but you couldn't go up to them and ask, how'd you do it? And I knew a lot of people who looked wealthy, but lived way above their means.
I'm frankly lucky to have stumbled onto a resource on YouTube that changed my life. YouTube! I'm a millionaire because I saw a video on YouTube. That's both sad and fortunate. The evil empire isn't all bad, I guess. But anyway, that early video was one of Clayton Morris's and I watched a ton of his stuff, then found, who I thought was an inferior educator, Brandon Turner. (Yes, humble pie, history proved me wrong.) That set up the real estate investing.
But at the same time, I came across videos about velocity banking, infinite banking, and money management. Those are the ones that showed me the tragedy of what we're doing. By hiding our wealth, refusing to talk about money, bowing to people who get uncomfortable with money talks, and people who accuse us of bragging, we're participating in their enslavement to banks.
People actually think thirty-year mortgages are a good thing! People thing their primary home is an asset! People believe the stock market is the surest way to build wealth! People buy brand new cars off the lot with money they don't have, take trips to the beach with credit cards they can't repay.
Talk about money. Say to people, I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but I came from government cheese and now I sleep on a mattress of Benjamins with a pillow of solid gold and you can too, with relative ease and speed.
Just by paying attention to where money goes first, you can quadruple your wealth in two years and not even notice a difference in your lifestyle. That's a start. Imagine if you used that new wealth to buy assets. But I'm rambling. Please talk more about money. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be ashamed.
- 4ySiyavash FooladianPro MemberInvestor · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 11 votes
First off, thank you for your service! Secondly, congrats on your hard work, determination, and success Nathan!!
I don’t think you should feel guilty or hide in the shadows of the success you’ve achieved in life. Very few people who achieve success in real estate or other fields were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. I’m an immigrant from Iran in the 1980s and was solid lower-mid middle class growing up. My Dad was an ice cream man and locksmith among other things. Now I’m a doctor and a commercial real estate operator/managing partner. I don’t “brag” about it but I think it’s important to speak your story/truth because success leaves clues and inspires.
There are people who will brag about how much money they make or what they have, but you don’t strike me as such a person. I think we at some point come to the understanding that we can’t control what others think or say about us because a lot of those perceptions are rooted in the other person’s own saboteurs and judgments and comparisons. As a result, instead of building and lifting others up, some people try to tear them down to make themselves feel better about their own perceived inadequacies. It sucks that this comes from your family and there is love there and you can choose to play small or be proud of your grit. What you’ve achieved took risk, hard work, determination and those are all qualities you should celebrate. If others want to emulate your success, I’m sure you would be happy to take them under your wing and reach them how you did it.
Here’s to your continued growth, fulfillment, success, contribution.-Sia
- Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes4y
Marley in his usual waistcoat and boots. The chain he drew was clasped about his middle. It was long and wound about him like a tail; and it was made (for Scrooge observed it closely) of cash-boxes, keys, padlocks, ledgers, deeds, and heavy purses wrought in steel. His body was transparent; so that Scrooge, observing him, and looking through his waistcoat, could see the two buttons on his coat behind.
Be not a Scrooge!
- Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes4y
@Nathan Gesner - I feel a very similar way. Now, I dit not exactly grow up poor, just middle class I guess, but also in a family where money was usually the limitation for things. It is difficult outside the REI and BP community to talk about financial success - we embrace it here. But outside of this circle people don't understand how it works, what it takes and maybe most importantly, the responsibilities that come with having financila success: the bigger you grow your business the more money is also required to maintain it, hire people and ensure you can sustain their payroll etc.. It's basically the same issue with tenants when they think you get to keep 100% of the rent they pay.
Frankly the biggest issue for me personally in recent year is that family members start to hint about me providing financial support, in a substancial way, like help fund real estate. I don't want to go into details in a public forum, but there were some hardships in my immediate family and I have helped out here and there when things got tough. I paid for some medical stuff, I have bought a few things that family members needed. Nothing crazy, like a laptop to replace one thats like 10 years old as a christmas gift. But of course it does not go unnoticed and now I can tell that I am being considered a bit of a "ressource" within the family, not in a demanding way, but yet, it is there, sometimes just unspoken and it makes me feel uneasy, if not sometimes uncomfortable. And that's difficult for me, because I am happy to help, within reason, but the line gets blurry quickly..
It is a cultural norm in our society not to ask friends and family for money - maybe you ask to borrow, but that's already a strech for many. I begin to understand why individuals with money want to hang out with other people with a similar financial background. You don't have to consider every word you say. We are not stuck up and I don't like to choose my friends based on net worth.
But if you want to do things with your friends or family that costs money, you have to be considerate. And I am not talking vacations or exotic cars. We just had a family gathering and did some fun stuff that week to keep the tenagers engaged. But that also means that everyone had to pay $35 admission for axe throwing and $25 for discovery world and then a dinner (nothing fancy) - some of our family members don't make that much, as a teacher for example - when you make $1,700 every two weeks spending $100 casually is just not in the cards.
Knowing this, I picked up the tab for a few things and I am happy to do that and try to keep it quite, but of couse everyone knows eventually that it was paid for and they have a good idea who it was. It's appreciated but also adds to that unspoken divide.
I have worked too hard (and I still do) to not enjoy what I worked for, that includes nice cars, we do a lot of weekend trips and vacations and I don't want to stay at home all the time and drive an old beater just so I can maintain a nothing-here appearance. We are not flashy, our house is nice, but not a masion, I wear jeans and a t-shirt, my watch is a $400 Citizen, which I love because it runs on light, we shop groceries at Costco. My wife cuts my hair and she asks me if she should get her nails done for a special occasion. We are not lavish.
Where we do spend money is on experiences and those are just more fun if you share them with others. But the question always comes, just like you get it: how many units do you have? We don't answer it anymore, which is not easy because we are both very close with family and our family culture is very open, but not giving an answer does not really help sometimes, because then facts get replaced with imagination.
So I am not sure how to handle all this. At the moment I think I will just have to live with it, because I am not willing to pretend I am broke, just to avoid unpleasant conversations.
Would love to hear how others deal with mony and friends&family.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
For me at this point I grew up in a real estate family and my wife has been a high producing broker for 30 years now.
And our kids are in the business well a few of them anyway.. our middle daughter is a very high producing agent in Vegas selling multi million dollar props and enjoying the commissions that come with them.
so nothing to really hide other than we dont talk about bank balances.. But they have also seen me in the low points of 08 to 2011 were we got our butts handed to us.. so there is that.. :)
- 4yBonnie LowPro MemberLender · Asheville, NC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesThis is such an important conversation, Nathan, so thank you for bringing it up. Most of us grew up believing you don't discuss religion, politics or money in public. With the way things are in our hyper-polarized society today I agree it's risky to discuss the first two. But the stigma around discussing money has to be overcome, just like we're recognizing the importance of being able to talk about nutrition, anxiety, depression and addiction. What little mainstream financial "education" there is is dated, dogmatic or both. For people who don't have money, getting it and keeping it can be misunderstood and mysterious - sometimes despite working their hardest (i.e. working smarter, not harder). Those of us who do have money can share information tactfully in a supportive, non-bragging way. That said, you do have to be able to read your audience. Sounds like maybe your brother was asking a rhetorical question or trying to pick a fight. Criticizing you for your success sounds a lot like envy, right? It's hard to change family dynamics and trigger issues like money make it harder. Normalizing the conversation (not just you - all of us) will take some of the powder out of the keg. One thing I've found helpful is to take a personal experience and make it a generalization. For example, say you're talking to a friend about a recent purchase. You can say 'let me give you an example or a hypothetical: Purchase price = $x, rehab = $x, ARV = $x. That's how money gets made in real estate.' This can come straight from your own experience but you've anonymized it so it feels less personal, which may be less awkward for both of you. Sharing the HOW is very important. What that person does with that information is, of course, up to them.
- Rental Property Investor · Bow, NH · Member since 2016 · 216 posts · 185 votes4y
@Nathan G.
Very interesting topic. This is just starting to affect me personally. I am by no means a millionaire (yet) or in the 1% but I have been acquiring some investment properties over the last 2 years and being in my early thirties I am getting alot of questions from friends and family. The questions I get are not out of courteously with the intent to learn but more so out of jealousy and has strained at least one friendship. Similar to some of the posts above, I don't live a lavish life style but have started upgrading our primary residence, cars, etc because I can. My friends and family assume it is because of strong w 2 income and fail to see the years I spent learning how money works, paying down consumer debt and buying cashflowing / appreciating assets. I wish I knew the answer but talking about money with people who don't care to learn how money works seems to be a loose-loose situation and seems to only breed jealousy. I've started trying to surround myself with like minded people who push me to be better.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Great input, everyone!
The only reason I want to share money is to motivate others! Not everyone needs to be wealthy, but they can increase their earnings to pay for vacations, escape a mundane W-2 job, put kids through college, cover an unexpected medical issue, and so much more.
Example: my mom has been living with my brother for five years. I just learned that she's been paying half her monthly income as rent. He's moving to another state and she didn't want to go, so I offered to move her to Cody and let her live in one of my apartments for free. She now has 3x the space all to herself and she's saving $750 a month. I'm glad we worked hard to put ourselves in a position we can help her.
If I need to quit my job, I can. If I want to give more to charity, I can. If something happens to me, my family is cared for. If things go well, I get to live like a king.
Why wouldn't I want to share that with others?!?
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - 4yBjorn AhlbladPro MemberInvestor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
For me, there are only two places to have this conversation, one is sometimes here; and the other is at LL Association meetings. I never discuss it with friends and family, except for those few who have also made it.
I have one daughter who has made megabucks investing in RE and a few friends who have done well through their entrepreneurial endeavors and stock market. We sometimes talk factually and that feels pretty safe. Just talking and not bragging.
- Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes4y
well.... its public domain what I paid for the properties i own..... so that I cant do much about.... if someone were to honestly ask me what i make i would tell them. Its not a lot and i live pretty frugally (well except for the horses ;)).... money can be a touchy subjects so you just need to know your audience and share accordingly.
- Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2019 · 433 posts · 743 votes4y
I love what @Jody Sperling said. I grew up with people always saying “you shouldn’t talk about money.” Then I got into the real world and realized I don’t know how money really works. I knew nothing about investing, leverage, cash flow, budgeting, value creation, etc. All I knew was to spend less than I make and put it in the bank.
I’m also super thankful that I stumbled onto real estate and learned all these concepts. I thought I was going to work til I was 65, hope I’d have enough in my 401k, then retire. But I attribute the fact that I don’t like being told what to do and questioning everything to finding the concept of financial freedom. Instead of being 65 and able to retire, I did it this year when I turned 28.
I actually think the reason why we have so many financially illiterate people is because nobody talks about it. Maybe if we stopped being so afraid to talk about money we would stop being afraid of the scarcity of money itself
- 4yJoe S.Pro MemberInvestor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
In 2005 my oldest brother asked me how my house sale was going. I mentioned it went under contract in three days and we were making $125,000 profit. I was in the military and would be considered lower middle-income at the time, so this profit was pure luck and a real blessing. I only answered his question, but later learned he felt I was "bragging" about it.
We grew up poor (I would pay good money for more of that government cheese if anyone has a source!) but all my siblings are now middle class. I've worked hard to grow a successful business, a strong investment portfolio, and am now part of the evil 1%. I try to keep it on the down-low with everyone, not just my family, but they do know I own investment property, that I travel quite a bit, etc. Even when they ask questions about how many properties/units I have, I try to play it down (without lying) and then change subjects quickly. I just learned my mom has been referring to me as her "millionaire son" even though I've never told any of them what I earn or what I'm worth.
Anyway, I'm just throwing this question out for my own curiosity: when do you feel it's safe to discuss income or net worth with others? Do you feel it's better to lie about it so they never know anything?
So Nathan. When you reference top 1% of wage earners is that pure wage/commission/paid for services/flips etc. It crossed my mind that there are a number of people that have way more income than they realize as far as Networth increase yearly due to appreciation especially if they have a number of houses. Since you don’t mind talking about money I thought I might ask? :-)
- Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 975 votes4y
@Nathan Gesner I don't understand why there is such taboo around talking candidly about money and finances. That taboo has negatively contributed to people's awareness of personal finance and education. If more people talked about topics like avoiding consumer debt, investing in retirement accounts, and delaying gratification, you would see more people in better financial situations. Instead, we have a consumer society focused on feeling good and looking good right now, fueled by credit cards, car loans, and payday lenders.
To answer your question, OP: the sooner the better! I'm not ashamed of what I've created and no one else should be either.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Joe S.:
So Nathan. When you reference top 1% of wage earners is that pure wage/commission/paid for services/flips etc. It crossed my mind that there are a number of people that have way more income than they realize as far as Networth increase yearly due to appreciation especially if they have a number of houses. Since you don’t mind talking about money I thought I might ask? :-)I'm glad you asked because I don't track this very closely, don't really care, and haven't done the research. I remember reading some articles that the top 1% included people earning $250,000 or more, but I've never actually looked. I just found a couple calculators that determine your standing based on annual income or net worth. Pretty cool.
Annual income is $350,000 so I'm top 3%
https://dqydj.com/household-in...
Net worth is $2.2M so I'm top 6%
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-pe...
This isn't anything I would track or really care about. I've never even looked at my net worth until a few months ago when talking to my CPA. My focus is financial stability, freedom, and the ability to help others. When it comes to talking about money, my intent is to show people where I started as a kid (poverty), where I was before starting this journey six years ago, and where I am now to show the power of hard work, education (personal research, not formal education), and sound financial practices (managing and growing).
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Doug Spence:
@Nathan Gesner I don't understand why there is such taboo around talking candidly about money and finances. That taboo has negatively contributed to people's awareness of personal finance and education. If more people talked about topics like avoiding consumer debt, investing in retirement accounts, and delaying gratification, you would see more people in better financial situations. Instead, we have a consumer society focused on feeling good and looking good right now, fueled by credit cards, car loans, and payday lenders.
To answer your question, OP: the sooner the better! I'm not ashamed of what I've created and no one else should be either.
This is exactly right! There are basic, proven principles that anyone can learn and employ to improve their lives. The average household earns $67,000 and has $16,000 in debt, not including their mortgage. That's almost 25% of their annual income in debt and it keeps growing.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - 4yJoe S.Pro MemberInvestor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Joe S.:
So Nathan. When you reference top 1% of wage earners is that pure wage/commission/paid for services/flips etc. It crossed my mind that there are a number of people that have way more income than they realize as far as Networth increase yearly due to appreciation especially if they have a number of houses. Since you don’t mind talking about money I thought I might ask? :-)I'm glad you asked because I don't track this very closely, don't really care, and haven't done the research. I remember reading some articles that the top 1% included people earning $250,000 or more, but I've never actually looked. I just found a couple calculators that determine your standing based on annual income or net worth. Pretty cool.
Annual income is $350,000 so I'm top 3%
https://dqydj.com/household-in...
Net worth is $2.2M so I'm top 6%
https://dqydj.com/net-worth-pe...
This isn't anything I would track or really care about. I've never even looked at my net worth until a few months ago when talking to my CPA. My focus is financial stability, freedom, and the ability to help others. When it comes to talking about money, my intent is to show people where I started as a kid (poverty), where I was before starting this journey six years ago, and where I am now to show the power of hard work, education (personal research, not formal education), and sound financial practices (managing and growing).
Very insightful. :-)
- Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes4y
I don't talk about it (other than RE here or concepts on the BP Money FB group) unless asked sad to say. I may say in 2022 I will celebrate 20 years of being job free if people ask, but that's about it.
Our sons are in the loop since they have been apt bld LLC members since diapers, get k-1s, have mutual funds and Roths, but stealth wealth has been our mantra. Hard to discuss without coming across as a bragger. Most people are too busy talking about themselves to listen anyway.
Then dad calls one day and says he knows people from church and Vets groups that need help budgeting and stuff. I sent a box of books to hand out saying let me if you need more. I guess parents always know more than we think. It was a compliment to be asked.
I do correct misconceptions about money and wealth when I hear people complain about being broke. I tell stories though, never saying I would or I did.
I will always just be that bad handyman in his minivan to my world. Both of my licensee tenants I've retained to list or be my agent have been floored. Sharing on BP is enough for me.
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2019 · 78 posts · 66 votes4y
@Nathan G. In my experience, it depends upon your audience. A fair number of folks have no interest in hearing about success and don’t want to be told how to achieve wealth. They’re content as-is, and that’s their prerogative.
I enjoy talking money and investments with like-minded folks, and gravitate towards those people…And then tone it down around others. Folks like the ones in this thread are probably driven to an extent not representative of the mainstream.
Congrats on your achievements!
- Coupeville, WA · Member since 2016 · 93 posts · 73 votes4y
I agree with a lot of what @Bonnie Low said. Knowing and reading your audience is important. Understanding why the topic of money is being discussed is important in helping to frame the conversation. Having conversations with family or friends when I feel I can be helpful with knowledge or perspective is what I consider to be my safe zone. I have provided feedback and examples or educational content to family several times over the years. Sometimes they run with it sometimes they don't. I have a sister who has been very aggressive in investing in the past to her detriment and a brother who is incredibly conservative in that regard. With friends it's more about different opportunities/approaches and less often about dollars.
- 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
@Nathan Gesner It just depends on the person(s) and circumstance for me. Good friends probably already know or can guess, same for relatives......but talking money at parties is just tacky......
- Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes4y
See, knowing where you stand in relation to everyone else is pretty meaningless iMO... I am in the top 4% of net worth.... but sadly only in the top 20% of gross income. why are my numbers so different than others?? I live in a low CAP rate area... so my properties generate less income..... yippee ;)
- Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes4y
@Nathan G. Hmmm… I don’t have a significant net worth *yet* but my goal is to be like the case studies in The Millionaire Next Door, ie wealth on the down low. How open I am with people would depend on the level of trust. I’m not interested in flaunting any level of success but at the same time I do want to help others succeed and offer encouragement that financial success is achievable. I have financial conversations on a regular basis with peers, select family members. I talk to my kids about finances often.
- MN · Member since 2018 · 78 posts · 19 votes4y
Great topic, and similarly to you, I’ve been VERY careful not to talk money or assets around anyone really, as it is perceived as bragging and brings out passive-aggressiveness in others, which I feel stems from jealousy.The only person I am truly honest with, is my mother, who is beyond proud. Similarly, my spouse and I purchased a home for her when she was in a bind. A couple of years later, she has come out of said bind and that home is now a great-performing rental, though we intended for that home to be hers permanently.
I always find your posts and advice extremely professional, rational and business-savvy, and now you are a true legend in my eyes with what you did for your mother. - 4yJohn MorganPro MemberRental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Talking about money is such a touchy subject in our society. I wish it wasn’t. I appreciate when people tell me directly the costs of everything. Or even their salary as long as they aren’t running it in my face and bragging about it. But discussing finances has always been a big no-no for most people. No wonder most people grow up completely clueless about money and can’t manage it.
But with RE, I really appreciate people whether they’re family or not telling me their numbers, whether they made a killing off a deal or not. It’s just now my brain is wired and I want to know details. Not being nosy, I just think it’s interesting.
- Investor · CT · Member since 2019 · 71 posts · 29 votes4y
I wish more people would talk about it. Every time someone has opened up about it, I have learned something that has helped me.
I try to talk to my younger coworkers about saving and investing and they are mostly resistant. They save the minimum to get the employer match and spend everything else.
I was that way at 22 until a coworker showed me his account that had 5 times as much in it as mine. He was saving more than the minimum- it had never occurred to me to do that. I was saving 3% and had a ROTH too, so I thought I was doing great. I immediately changed mine and tried to catch up to him :). Twenty years of growth later and I’m really glad I did.
Same thing with real estate. I don’t know anyone who owns property. Someone at a party said they were a real estate investor and I asked, What does that mean? 🤪🤣
I think you can talk about investing and planning without it being tacky. Most people just don’t know what is possible. They think it’s for someone else.
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