Getting crushed by HELOC interest

Getting crushed by HELOC interest

Greenwich, CT · Member since 2017 · 81 posts · 8 votes
Quick background: We purchased a multi family that was to be a live in flip and to fund the purchase and the reno we leveraged our primary residence at the time. We moved into the live in flip and once the flip was over we refi’d hoping to recoup everything. We didnt do a cashout refi because the rate on the mortgage wouldve been too high, so we took out another HELOC. Since we did not recoup the costs to pay back the first HELOC, we now have two maxed out HELOCS. Long story short, the reno cost way more that anticipated. Whats done is done and we learned a lot during the process but now we’re gettting hammered with those HELOCS because the interest rates are skyrocketing. One is at 7.5% and the other at 9.3%. I’m considering taking out a 401k loan to knock down the amount of one of the helocs (9.3% because its highest and also interest only). This way, the interest payments will go to us, we can pay back the heloc faster, and 9.3% is not a gain im seeing in the market anytime soon. I know theres no way to time the market but things are looking bleak in the future so i feel any unrealized gains we would be missing wouldnt be so bad. The real problem is paying a pre tax value back with post tax dollars. Anyone have any suggestions?
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V.G JasonPro Member
Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
3y

A loan to payoff another loan. You need to get out of the property. Hopefully, people read this and stop playing the super leveraged game.

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  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    A loan to payoff another loan. You need to get out of the property. Hopefully, people read this and stop playing the super leveraged game.

  • Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2022 · 158 posts · 118 votes
    3y

    Sounds like you should've done a cash out refi in the first place. Last I checked, 7/1 ARMS were definitely lower than the rates you mentioned. I don't see why you can't simply cash out refi now and correct your error.

  • Greenwich, CT · Member since 2017 · 81 posts · 8 votes
    3y
    @V.G Jason is this not what the concept of debt consilidation is? @Jon A the rate on our 1st mortgage is 3.5%. Reefinancing out of that to lock the whole lump sum in at something like 6% would be silly no?
  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    3y

    @Nick Causa best would be to cut your budget to bare minimum and pay down the 9+% heloc.  What's the balance?

    For future reference, there is a rate lock option of 3 or 5 years when we take out helocs.   It's hard to see that a lock at a higher rate than floating could be beneficial,  but it hedges risk when borrowing for longer term holds.  

    For reference, when I took mine out in '21, the floating rate (for a 1st) was 3.75%.  3 yr lock 4.3%.  5yr lock 4.75%.  I did a 3yr and kinda wish I did a 5 yr.  Was a lock available to you?

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @V.G Jason is this not what the concept of debt consilidation is? @Jon A the rate on our 1st mortgage is 3.5%. Reefinancing out of that to lock the whole lump sum in at something like 6% would be silly no?
    You're not a rates trader. You're an aspiring investor. You're crippling your outright ability to perform. Don't compromise yourself from financial freedom & peace of mind due to trying to get cute. This board is notorious for wanting to apply more debt to solve current debt issues. With rates historically low between '12-'22, that wasn't a terrible idea but not a solvent one. In this new economy, get yourself out of your hole. And invest carefully. 
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    Quick background: We purchased a multi family that was to be a live in flip and to fund the purchase and the reno we leveraged our primary residence at the time. We moved into the live in flip and once the flip was over we refi’d hoping to recoup everything. We didnt do a cashout refi because the rate on the mortgage wouldve been too high, so we took out another HELOC. Since we did not recoup the costs to pay back the first HELOC, we now have two maxed out HELOCS. Long story short, the reno cost way more that anticipated. Whats done is done and we learned a lot during the process but now we’re gettting hammered with those HELOCS because the interest rates are skyrocketing. One is at 7.5% and the other at 9.3%. I’m considering taking out a 401k loan to knock down the amount of one of the helocs (9.3% because its highest and also interest only). This way, the interest payments will go to us, we can pay back the heloc faster, and 9.3% is not a gain im seeing in the market anytime soon. I know theres no way to time the market but things are looking bleak in the future so i feel any unrealized gains we would be missing wouldnt be so bad. The real problem is paying a pre tax value back with post tax dollars. Anyone have any suggestions?

    Refi to 5% ARM.

  • Greenwich, CT · Member since 2017 · 81 posts · 8 votes
    3y
    @Carlos Ptriawan been looking and most rates are 6-7+
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @Carlos Ptriawan been looking and most rates are 6-7+

     Cash out Refi your primary to 4-5% rate ; to pay off other higher debts.
    Check with local CU.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    3y

    @V.G Jason

    I agree. They should get out while they still can.

    Taking money from one place to pay another is not sound. Short term yes but once you start taking from your 401k and as a newer investor who doesn’t know what they don’t know you can cripple yourself for decades.

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  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @Carlos Ptriawan been looking and most rates are 6-7+

     Cash out Refi your primary to 4-5% rate ; to pay off other higher debts.
    Check with local CU.

    You're getting 4-5 even on primary on ARM? I'm not seeing ARM very much discounted to CONV even on primary. Not that I would do it, but I see the ARM flat to it. Thinking CONV goes up. My new investment conventional pre approval is 6.875. Think the average person is looking at 7.5 These are getting atrocious. 
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @Carlos Ptriawan been looking and most rates are 6-7+

     Cash out Refi your primary to 4-5% rate ; to pay off other higher debts.
    Check with local CU.

    You're getting 4-5 even on primary on ARM? I'm not seeing ARM very much discounted to CONV even on primary. Not that I would do it, but I see the ARM flat to it. Thinking CONV goes up. My new investment conventional pre approval is 6.875. Think the average person is looking at 7.5 These are getting atrocious. 

    ya , the rate for me was 5.65 for 10/10/10 ARM ; if I bought 45 days ago it was 4.8 Dannnggg :) I'm in contract from last week.
    This market is heaven for owner occupant but very tricky for rental, I would rather do flip.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @Carlos Ptriawan been looking and most rates are 6-7+

     Cash out Refi your primary to 4-5% rate ; to pay off other higher debts.
    Check with local CU.

    You're getting 4-5 even on primary on ARM? I'm not seeing ARM very much discounted to CONV even on primary. Not that I would do it, but I see the ARM flat to it. Thinking CONV goes up. My new investment conventional pre approval is 6.875. Think the average person is looking at 7.5 These are getting atrocious. 

    ya , the rate for me was 5.65 for 10/10/10 ARM ; if I bought 45 days ago it was 4.8 Dannnggg :) I'm in contract from last week.
    This market is heaven for owner occupant but very tricky for rental, I would rather do flip.


     Yeah it's only going to run. We need a significantly below print to reverse course. I think Powell is going to wreck this year, at this rate.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @Carlos Ptriawan been looking and most rates are 6-7+

     Cash out Refi your primary to 4-5% rate ; to pay off other higher debts.
    Check with local CU.

    You're getting 4-5 even on primary on ARM? I'm not seeing ARM very much discounted to CONV even on primary. Not that I would do it, but I see the ARM flat to it. Thinking CONV goes up. My new investment conventional pre approval is 6.875. Think the average person is looking at 7.5 These are getting atrocious. 

    ya , the rate for me was 5.65 for 10/10/10 ARM ; if I bought 45 days ago it was 4.8 Dannnggg :) I'm in contract from last week.
    This market is heaven for owner occupant but very tricky for rental, I would rather do flip.


     Yeah it's only going to run. We need a significantly below print to reverse course. I think Powell is going to wreck this year, at this rate.


     It's funny that every leader in this country from Fauci to Powell is running very fast to ruin the civilization LOL

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @V.G Jason is this not what the concept of debt consilidation is? @Jon A the rate on our 1st mortgage is 3.5%. Reefinancing out of that to lock the whole lump sum in at something like 6% would be silly no?

    What does the math say about the refi? You need to look at two numbers 1) what is the blended rate you're paying now? 2) what is the possible avoided cost of completing the refi?

    The first tells you what you are really paying in interest rate...it's not 3.5%. It's 3.5% on some and 9.3% on other, so the effective rate is....? Who knows; that's the point. You're preserving a perceived value in that low interest rate 1st even if it is costing you...the 6% on the total may be lower than what you're paying now. 

    The second tells you that if you go through this effort, you'll save $2k per month(just a made up total). In that case does it matter if you're paying more interest? Not really since you're still ahead $24K a year...now if that is $50/mo maybe it's not worth it...

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @V.G Jason is this not what the concept of debt consilidation is? @Jon A the rate on our 1st mortgage is 3.5%. Reefinancing out of that to lock the whole lump sum in at something like 6% would be silly no?

     Seems like you are stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime. Stop focusing on the one low rate of your fixed debt and how much it would hurt to lose that and rather look at the rate you pay on the entirety of your debt. 

    To Illustrate lets assume you have $100k in total debt between your two properties, $40k fixed @3.5%, $30k HELOC @ 7.5% and $30k HELOC @ 9.3%. The weighted average of those yields is 6.4% (.4*3.5+.3*7.5+.3*9.3). In this example, you'd want to refi everything to the fixed term 6%. The 6.4% above is what matters; we don't know exact numbers so one one can tell if refi-ing makes sense.

    I agree with @V.G Jason as a new-ish RE investor you need to seek simplification in your strategy not complexity. There is already a mountain of things you have left to learn and adding variables like 'what will rates do in the next x months' distracts you from the important learnings of how to run rentals successfully.

    Once you have a few rentals under your belt with stable cash flows and an understanding of what style works for you, sure go take some interest rate risk by getting some variable rate debt. 

    If you want to get to the point where you have cash flowing rentals, suck it up, pay the piper for making a dumb call with the HELOCs, find a 30 yr fixed or at the least a 7/1 ARM, and consider the lost % tuition in the school of hard knocks.

  • Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Do not borrow on 401k. DO NOT withdraw from 401k.

    Get your CPA in on planning now.

    Don't refinance -sell if you cannot make the payments. 

    Get a second job if you want to hold.

    HELOC max cap probably is 20- 21% so things are not getting better staying the course.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Caroline Gerardo:

    Do not borrow on 401k. DO NOT withdraw from 401k.

    Get your CPA in on planning now.

    Don't refinance -sell if you cannot make the payments. 

    Get a second job if you want to hold.

    HELOC max cap probably is 20- 21% so things are not getting better staying the course.


    Yeah sell is good option especially if LTV from ownership has reached more than 60%.

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    3y

    I do not understand.  This was a live-in flip, flip is complete.  Time to sell and realize the profits (if there are any other than the learning). 

    Borrow from 401k seems very high risk at this point.  

    Fed recently announced next increase may be more than had been anti pared prior to the comment.  This is strong indication rates are going to go up more.  

    Sell, pay back debt resulting from this flip.  Learn and be more successful next time.  Also remember the only people who never fail are those that do not push their limits.  Nothing wrong with failing if you learn from it.  

    Good luck

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Dan H.:

    I do not understand.  This was a live-in flip, flip is complete.  Time to sell and realize the profits (if there are any other than the learning). 

    Borrow from 401k seems very high risk at this point.  

    Fed recently announced next increase may be more than had been anti pared prior to the comment.  This is strong indication rates are going to go up more.  

    Sell, pay back debt resulting from this flip.  Learn and be more successful next time.  Also remember the only people who never fail are those that do not push their limits.  Nothing wrong with failing if you learn from it.  

    Good luck


    what we don't know is his actual LTV position to comparative sales.  

    The basic principle of investing is, to do leveraging when interest rate is low with fixed-rate debt; and ride the wave until it hits ceiling ; but when the wave change course, a better option is to do deleveraging/consolidation. Sell one or two properties if equity is high enough. If you can't sell then refi to lower rate fixed rate debt is good option.

     
    Btw I'm in proponent of borrowing from 401k since interest rate is low and you're theoretically borrowing from yourself , for the output that you could enjoy today, not when you're 59. When I purchased a few properties decade ago I was also borrowing from 401k and paid it back. The IRR from that 401k is triple digit LOL.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    Wow, the narrative is really changing on here. Just a little while ago, it'd be someone recommending to take on some other form of debt to manage new debt. And 3-5 others piggybacking that.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 75 posts · 37 votes
    3y

    at this point, either sell and pay down the debt, stick to the plan you described or do something else.

    If it were me...not legal advice here, but...knowing what I know about the monetary system and banking I'd be exploring all my remedies in equity to eliminate (setoff/recoup) the debt (recission, injunction, account of profits, rectification/reformation, equitable estoppel, etc). 

    One of the spaces I like to play in is the foreclosure arena because honestly banking under the fractional reserve system and emergency banking act inherently lends every transaction entered into to fraud. There's no money of exchange..so that means all of those promissory notes signed by "borrowers" are the value that funds the loan transaction, but the "lender" never tells the "borrower" this. So effectively, the "lender" gets a $350k (or whatever the loan amount is) financial asset (promissory note) for free (unjust enrichment, fraud, swindle). 

    All that being said, not knowing what I know...I'd probably look to consolidate the debt into a fixed-rate product and hope the property appreciates to where I can sell and break even. Feel free to PM me if you want some more direction on remedy that is probably not spoken of very regularly in public spaces. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 75 posts · 37 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Dan H.:

    I do not understand.  This was a live-in flip, flip is complete.  Time to sell and realize the profits (if there are any other than the learning). 

    Borrow from 401k seems very high risk at this point.  

    Fed recently announced next increase may be more than had been anti pared prior to the comment.  This is strong indication rates are going to go up more.  

    Sell, pay back debt resulting from this flip.  Learn and be more successful next time.  Also remember the only people who never fail are those that do not push their limits.  Nothing wrong with failing if you learn from it.  

    Good luck

    With the recent bank failures, it's likely the FED will not raise rates as much as initially anticipated...but that just means inflation will rise again.
  • Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2022 · 158 posts · 118 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nick Causa:
    @V.G Jason is this not what the concept of debt consilidation is? @Jon A the rate on our 1st mortgage is 3.5%. Reefinancing out of that to lock the whole lump sum in at something like 6% would be silly no?

     I was suggesting you do a cash out refi on the newest property which appears to be 100% financed by high rate heloc debt. Take out as much cash as possible so that you pay off as much of the helocs as possible, starting w the highest debt. If after doing that you're still hemorrhaging, then it sounds like your deal doesn't work and you'll have to sell an asset. I personally would not try to save a bad deal by dipping into retirement funds.

  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    @Nick Causa

    I'm a fan of 401k loans. I've done 3 401k loans for rehabs and one to buy a house with cash for 48k. I would do one to pay off your HELOC. Then pay it back over 5 years or less.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    Wow, the narrative is really changing on here. Just a little while ago, it'd be someone recommending to take on some other form of debt to manage new debt. And 3-5 others piggybacking that.

     Perhaps sanity is finally winning out in these forums.

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