Wealth Management for RE Investors

Wealth Management for RE Investors

Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
I’ve recently been exploring wealth management strategies/options to make sure our assets grow and are protected. The problem is I don’t really know what we should be doing to take things to the next level. For those of you who work with financial advisors or have accumulated significant assets - any advice for someone trying to get started? We have 8 units and both work solid W2 jobs - our rental income more than covers our modest living expenses. We hope to be at 10 units by the end of 2018 and have a family net worth of $1M by 2020/21. Met an Edward Jones advisor who was recommended to me by a guy I met on a plane (wealthy business owner with similar life POV). The advisor seems solid and has recommended we keep a smaller amount liquid ($20-30k), then take the rest of our cash and do a combo of 60% stocks/funds, 40% laddered CDs in addition to our IRAs and 401ks, just to get company match. We’ll keep growing our real estate portfolio as well. Haven’t signed anything yet other than have her manage a small stock trade for me. My understanding is that Edward Jones is a reputable company but Is it crazy to trust hundreds of thousands of dollars to someone I met via the recommendation of a guy on a plane? How did you find your financial advisor? What was your strategy to get from middle class to wealthy? How best to diversify one’s investments if real estate is the core of your strategy? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
7Reply
301 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 17 votes
8y

I have a very strong opinion on wealth management: unless you are a high net worth (multi-millions) and it requires more time than you have available, I consider that you should have a DIY approach with the right team to support you. The main reason is that nobody takes better care of your money than yourself.

For asset protection, I would agree with Caleb that a mixture of lawyer,  insurance and tax help (cpa) should cover it.

For asset growth, I would stay clear of financial advisors and keep it very simple: ETF with low fees (like wealthfront.com) and index funds with low fees (like vanguard.com). To understand how to approach it, I would recommend to read "The simple way to wealth" by JL Collins. 

See this reply in the discussion

73 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2017 · 22 posts · 6 votes
    8y

    I love the book "Money" by Tony Robbins. I avoided the high fee mutual funds and switched to the index fund. My $10 book saved me thousands. 

  • Justin WindhamPro Member
    Banker · Nationwide · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 10 votes
    8y
    One of the most easy to understand books is "The Little Book of Common Sense Investing" by John Bogle. Short. So Easy to read and follow. Simple. I also would recommend Tony Robbins and Dave Ramsey books. Dave's more for a bit of a basic foundation and Tony's more comprehensive. Good luck!
  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 190 posts · 117 votes
    8y

    @Glen Whipkins Dave Ramsey is awesome! Totally changed the way I view money in general.

  • Investor · Los Angeles County, CA · Member since 2012 · 962 posts · 279 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ericka G.:

    Yes I’ve heard index funds are great I’m just not sure what they are or how to get into them. Hopefully wealthfront can help that that.

    Buy more real estate. 

    Before you buy managed funds are u sure you don't want to just buy more real estate and keep the control and scale up and/or just diversify into diff areas and markets. Commercial: retail, multifamily, office, NNN, etc. Use the 1031 as a tool to diversify and expand your portfolio . Sell some of your units, and upleg while u can (I assume you have SFRs-4 units?)

    Edward jones is not your friend...

    If you do feel the need to buy into stocks/funds... buy index funds and focus  on the top Vanguard funds.  (a google search is all you need) They're well diversified and have low expenses.  That's what you want.  

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 30 votes
    8y

    @Erika Grant

    As literally the only licensed wealth manager (7/66), Real estate Broker, Life Insurance and Life Settlement Broker in America, I pride myself in the ability to cut through the BS and provide my clients with unfiltered, and unbiased advice. Much like in life, there are no black and white answers, but as a Wealth Manager myself, with $140M AUM personally, here are a few things everyone needs to consider:

    1. As a real estate investor, by default you ARE a wealth manager. You are managing the wealth of your current and future family. The ability for you to a great wealth manager yourself, is a function of your investment knowledge, your current market, your "edge" (what do you know that nobody knows to provide you outsized returns) and your ability to leverage your assets, knowledge, and rules for a return that is stable, and hopefully better than average.

    2. Wealth Managers by default will gravitate towards stocks/bonds/mutual funds etc, and insurance. This is both a function of their licensing (if you can only sell insurance, you wont recommend anything else) and their firms ability to accommodate. Edward Jones, Merril, JP Morgan, Goldman, they are all hamstrung by regulations, so by walking to a firm like that, you WILL get the Stock/Bond pitch.

    3. There is a place for every investment in a portfolio. Nobody should be 100% in real estate, as nobody should be in cash 100%. Each choice has a risk/reward ratio that is driven by personal needs/fear and timeframe/financial goals. However, I would counter that real estate is a far superior investment on a long term horizon due to its tax efficiency, leverage, and inefficient market (everyone knows what a stock of Apple is worth. What is your 4-plex worth? That depends on the buyer, their creativity, and your ability to sell the story) Hence, there are opportunities to turn $4 Million in real estate into $80 Million in 2 years...Its always been there, nothing changed, just the creativity of the buyer in this example. You don't have that power with stocks. (I'm not saying the market is efficient, I'm saying the price of a stock that second is the right price)

    4. As a hypothetical. How much stock can you buy with $100,000?   Answer: $100,000 (or $200K with margin, or $400K with institutional help)

    How Much Real Estate Can you Buy with $100,000? Answer: $500,000 (Typically) but in some cases unlimited amounts (consider a master lease Option as an example)

    So if both the stock market and the real estate asset go up 5% a year, what did you earn on the stock and real estate investment?  Stock= $100,000*5%= $5,000   Real Estate = $500,000*5%=$25,000 ( I am obviously ignoring taxes and mortgage payments in this example)

    So would you rather make $25,000 or $5,000 on your $100K investment per year? The answer should be $25,000 assuming the risk is the same. Once you consider the mortgage payment of $16,200 per year your actual return is $8,800 vs $5,000. That's a a 76% difference in returns. 

    5. That's the Capital Appreciation. Real Estate is also paying you a dividend each month (rents) which provide you with cash flow. You also get to depreciate the full purchase price of the real estate over 27.5 years (or do Cost Segregation and accelerate the depreciation for 5 years). So the after tax return on real estate is higher (it reduces your income tax)

    6. Once you want to sell, you can use a 1031 Exchange (or our Alternatives) to continue to defer the capital gains/depreciation recapture tax virtually indefinitely (until your children inherit, or you have an estate tax problem) Can't do that with stocks.

    7. Stock/bonds come into play when you are required to (your work 401k wont allow you to buy a 4-plex no matter how great the investment) or if you can't find any deals the put your money to work... ie. you win the lottery and won $50 Million. Where would you place your money if you had to invest it within 5 days? You couldn't (or shouldn't) buy $50 Million in real estate efficiently in such a short time period.

    8. Exit Plan-We all think we are going to live forever, and our investments will continue to appreciate. Well, what if they don't? What if we get too old to manage the property ourselves, are tired of investing, want some free time? What if you wanted an easy life? How do you sell your assets in such a way that is tax efficient both to you and your heirs? This is where trust/tax planning comes in. Unfortunately, most will consider this when it is too late, instead of planning to be fabulously wealthy in the beginning where these concepts and strategies are easier and cheaper to implement.

    9. As a real estate investor, your #1 Priority should be to offset your jobs income tax hit. Typically you should own $1 Million in real estate for every $36,000 in income. It won't happen immediately, but if you didn't pay taxes on your income today, you would be receiving at least a 30% salary increase (when has that last happened) which allows you to put away 30% more (all else being equal) to reach your tax-free goal sooner, and by default your financial goals much quicker.

    This might seem like a rant, but an investor should always make their money work the hardest with the most efficiency. Anyone who tells you differently, is just trying to sell you a product. Ask yourself, how hard is your money working for you today, and what can you do to make it work even harder?

  • TX · Member since 2017 · 70 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    @Dan Rudolph Yes Personal Capital will restrict or remove REITs from your portfolio, if you ask for that.  

  • TX · Member since 2017 · 70 posts · 38 votes
    8y

    I like Dave Ramsey but the only problem I have with him is that he doesn’t want you to be leveraged. He wants you to pay off your house ASAP. 

  • Akron, OH · Member since 2015 · 178 posts · 189 votes
    8y

    People like Dave Ramsey are fine for just the very BASIC ideas that they are trying to get across, the principles of not trying to keep up with the Jones, and not being a slave to debt, for example.

  • Rental Property Investor · Huntington, NY · Member since 2016 · 102 posts · 74 votes
    8y

    Hey @Ericka G..  I opened a Vanguard account because there was one fund I wanted to be in.  The account is free and there is no trade commission when buying Vanguard products.  I also have an account with Charles Schwab.  This too is a free account with low transaction fees.  I believe they now have the lowest cost total market tracking fund available.  I think with a little research you can outperform an advisor based solely on not paying any added fees.  Warren Buffet offered a $1 million bet almost 10 years ago to any hedge fund manager willing to take to take the following bet; no hedge fund manager can outperform a SP500 tracking fund over the course of 10 years.  The bet was taken and is due to conclude at the end of this calendar year.  The hedge fund has already admitted defeat.  I believe most people can invest in paper themselves, even as simply as one total market tracking fund/etf.  What you save in cost ratio really adds up.  There is a rule of 7.  It states, if you earn 7.2% return annually compounded, you will double your money every 10 years.  By lowering that compounded a return by even 1% (a broker fee), you drastically reduces your long term growth.  I'm currently trying to diversify into real estate.  I have 6 units over two properties currently and am looking to add more.  I'm using a line of credit off my stock/fund investments to finance deals and then refinancing to pay back line of credit and have property itself as collateral against the loan.  Best of luck to you.

  • Lender · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2009 · 825 posts · 486 votes
    8y

    A Comprehensive Wealth Management plan

    Just as a dream home includes comforts as well as protects from the elements, a wealth management plan both provides for life’s desires and protects against risks.

    Specifically, a Comprehensive Wealth Management plan:

    1.Creates and Grows Wealth

    Assures that their investments are appropriate to achieve desired goals.

    Reviews their income tax situation to make sure they are not paying unnecessary taxes on investment income and excessive capital gains tax.

    Assures their life insurance is adequate in case of premature death.

    2.Protects and Preserves Wealth

    Reviews current plans for paying for the consequences of life’s unknowns. This includes a discussion of their overall risk management program -- Life, Disability, Long Term Care and Liability -- to make sure the plans are adequate and cost effective.

    Considers the overall investment portfolio to make sure investment selection and diversification are managed appropriately.

    Reviews the overall tax sensitivity of these investments.

    3.Plans the Distribution of Wealth during Life in the Most Advantageous Way

    Considers the IRA and qualified retirement plan distribution plan; not as an accountant, but using a tax expert as appropriate.

    Assesses who serves as their durable power of attorney or successor trustee of a revocable living trust in case of an incapacity - again using the appropriate advice from a CPA and legal counselors.

    Considers ways to distribute wealth to children and descendants for well-being, education and other purposes and doing so in the most tax-efficient method.

    Reviews charitable giving for both tax savings and control issues.

    4. Plans for the Distribution of Wealth at Death in the Most Tax-Advantaged way.

    Reviews the titling of all the assets and whether Joint Tenants with Rights of Survivorship makes sense - using the appropriate advice from a CPA and legal counselors.

    Considers who will serve as the executor or trustee and whether a lack of continuity in the financial arrangements is an issue.

    Analyzes the plan to distribute wealth at death to their spouse and descendants for both tax efficiency and control - not as a CPA or Attorney, but bringing in those advisors as appropriate.

    Reviews the charitable inclinations at death for both tax savings and control issues.

    To create this Comprehensive Wealth Management plan one must consult with an accountant and an attorney to assure accuracy and legitimacy.

    A thorough discussion of these four areas provides people with the comfort in understanding the comprehensiveness of their wealth management.

    Wouldn’t it be great to have a comprehensive plan so that no matter what happens in the economy, in the world or your personal life

    you would still feel confident about achieving your goals?

  • Butte, MT · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Haven't read through all the posts, but if not already mentioned... An easy to read book is Money, Master the Game by Robbins. I'm not following the exact steps but I learned a lot of the very basics of finances through this. Or The Four Pillars of Investing although slightly more technical. Explains index funds and a lot more. My wealth adviser is a fiduciary and I need him because I have a busy surgical career and family and can't do all the self-educating and monitoring necessary to be successful. He was the one who suggested investment real estate and I'm loving it and thank him for encouraging that. 

  • Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2012 · 93 posts · 32 votes
    8y
    Check out Tasty Trade if you want to manage your own money. It's taught me a lot about options investing and taking your financial education into your own hands. Definitely worth checking out.
  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
    8y
    Wow. So much great advice - thanks again to everyone who chimed in. My 5 key takeaways: 1. Say NO to Edward Jones 2. Research and DIY instead Read: -Little Book of Common Sense Investing, John Bogle -The Simple Path to Wealth, JL Collins -Money, Tony Robbins 3. Consult with attorney and tax expert for proper estate, insurance, and tax planning 4. Clarify goals - be a millionaire by 2020 ;) 5. Execute DIY with lowest cost possible - aim for mix of real estate, no load index funds, and 401k (up to match) -wealthfront, Scottrade,Charles Schwab, and Vanguard are some of the more popular DIY sites Did I miss anything?
  • CA · Member since 2017 · 153 posts · 74 votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock what cut off  do you use for high dividend stock, 4%?  Do you mind sharing a few companies you invest in?  Thanks.

  • Investor · Bayside, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Hau N.:

    @Joe Splitrock what cut off  do you use for high dividend stock, 4%?  Do you mind sharing a few companies you invest in?  Thanks.

    I have one IRA portfolio that I self manage. It consists of long term hold stocks. Recently, one of them GE, fell on hard times. It fell from $35.00/share to a little over $20.00. Analyst says $20.00 should be the bottom, and their short terms forecast is around $27.00 but possibly $35.00. The current yield is 4% though it might be cut.

    I picked up 450 shares yesterday, and possibly more this week. Currently have 1,000 shares. GE was in the Dow Jones when the Dow Jones Industrial average started.

  • Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 210 posts · 80 votes
    8y

    "I don’t really know what we should be doing to take things to the next level"?

    1. Buy more real estate!!!!!!!!!!

    2. Save enough cash reserve for CapEx, etc.

    3. Put your properties under LLCs.

    4. Get a RE focused CPA ( I personally have one), a good insurance policy with umbrella insurance, and a RE focused attorney.  

    5. Continue contributing the 5% (whatever % that's required) to 401K to get company match

    6. Self-directed IRA which can be invested to RE too

    Btw, the so-called "investment diversification" has been misguided, or worse, a twisted lie promoted by the best funded marketing minds from Wall Street.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ericka G.:

    Wow. So much great advice - thanks again to everyone who chimed in. My 5 key takeaways:
    1. Say NO to Edward Jones

    2. Research and DIY instead
    Read:
    -Little Book of Common Sense Investing, John Bogle
    -The Simple Path to Wealth, JL Collins
    -Money, Tony Robbins

    3. Consult with attorney and tax expert for proper estate, insurance, and tax planning

    4. Clarify goals - be a millionaire by 2020 ;)

    5. Execute DIY with lowest cost possible - aim for mix of real estate, no load index funds, and 401k (up to match)
    -wealthfront, Scottrade,Charles Schwab, and Vanguard are some of the more popular DIY sites

    Did I miss anything?

     Great summary, Ericka.  Thank you for listening and providing feedback! I think your summary is great.

    I used to be all about 'the market', including having a series-7 license to broker securities.  Everything I had was in paper in some form until about 2003.  Now I'm about 94/6 in RE. Real estate has passed up my market money by a factor of 20:1.  And I was a 'market geek' watching cnbc and subscribing to 4 magazines on it!

    Wealth managers, financial advisers, etc start coming out of the woodwork when you acquire some dollars as you have found.  Here's what's funny, for me anyway -  the bank's investment rep will call me or my gym buddy will call or contact me via linked-in or whatever.  "I see you have some money. Would you like to come in and discuss some investment options?"  Me- "Nah.  I'll just keep doing what I've been doing.  Keep doing what got me that money in the first place."    They never ask first, you know?  If I was a suit selling investment advice, I'd be curious as to how someone acquired and has more sitting idle than I've ever seen in my own bank acct or hope to make in 3 years of hustling.

    The moral of my story, the underlying theme to my (and most of us on here) wealth anyway, is real estate.  I have some mutual funds, stocks, etf's, IRAs, etc too, but RE is the meat and potatoes. Stock market, just gravy and corn.  I'd suggest you do it that way as well and not lock in large sums to something sophisticated or illiquid.  When a real estate deal comes your way, be able to jump on it with minimal pain and cost. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Hau N.:

    @Joe Splitrock what cut off  do you use for high dividend stock, 4%?  Do you mind sharing a few companies you invest in?  Thanks.

    It depends on the company what I want to see for dividend. My largest individual stock position is ATT, which is paying 5.8% as of today. It is a good buy right now and it is a huge company with massive infrastructure. The wireless licenses alone are worth a killing. 

    I have also invested in oil field royalties, such as Permian Basin Trust. It pays 6.8% as of today, but when I got in it was paying over 10%. It is going to fluctuate with oil prices. I will probably sell the shares next time there is a major spike in oil prices.

    Sorry wish I had better stock tips. They always say, buy what you know. Most my money is in real estate, but I have a little fun with the stocks.

  • Realtor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2016 · 229 posts · 159 votes
    8y

    @Ericka G.

    Why would you pay someone who is clearly steering you towards investments that give them kickbacks. Just open a vanguard account and pick some balanced funds which are comprised of both stocks and bonds and and and this is the best part the fees are so low that they are pretty much non existent. For example I invest in S&P 500 indexed fund and the expenses are 0.03% per 10K. that is way less than you would be paying your edwards jones guy, Just my $0.02. 

    FYI i prefer real estate though cause I can touch it......

  • Rental Property Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2013 · 188 posts · 228 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ericka G.:

    Yes I’ve heard index funds are great I’m just not sure what they are or how to get into them. Hopefully wealthfront can help that that.

     @Ericka Grant: Index funds are non-actively-managed funds that track some sector, or the broader market in general (like the S&P 500). In actively managed funds, someone is sitting there deciding what companies the fund should invest in, when to buy, when to sell, etc., and that person gets compensated for doing that work - that compensation comes out of the money that investors have in the fund (and/or the profit the fund makes). This is generally in the 0.5-1.5% range.

    Typically, actively managed funds are measured by how they perform relative to an index fund. Because index funds are not actively managed, they do not change holdings very often, and thus their overhead costs are very low, often near 0.1%. Index funds are seen as a good measure of the performance of their whole sector, and thus serve as a benchmark. A good example is the S&P 500 Index fund VFINX - the S&P500 is simply the largest (by total stock worth) 500 companies on the market, very simple to know who they are and it takes little work to maintain a fund that invests in them, as there is no judgement or expertise involved - whoever the biggest 500 companies are, that's the S&P500. You dont need to pay someone to use their expertise to pick them, hence the low overhead.

    Here's the little secret of actively managed funds - you are paying on the order of 10x more in commissions to the fund managers (vs index funds) for their expertise, BUT the VAST majority of fund managers DO NOT reliably beat the index against which they are measured. So at the end of the day, you pay them more and get worse performance. What this means is that fund managers (read: Wealth Managers) don't make their money actually growing wealth, they make their money SELLING you their funds. They are sales people, period. 

    Many companies have index funds, Vanguard being the most well known in the area due to its founder Jack Bogle being a loud proponent of them.

  • Dan MahoneyPro Member
    Financial Advisor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 256 posts · 350 votes
    8y

    @Ericka G. I'm a little late to the thread but I wanted to add that there is a difference between an adviser and a broker.  A registered investment adviser (RIA) is a fiduciary that is required by law to put clients' interests first.  A broker (registered representative, Series 6 or Series 7 license) is contractually obligated to put their company's interests first.  Edward Jones is a brokerage - their representatives' job is to sell you investment products.

    I think you are looking for help evaluating investment opportunities in the context of the rest of your financial life.  This means you need to find someone who understands real estate, taxes, business entity structure, debt, insurance, estate planning, asset allocation, etc., to help you make decisions.  Ideally, this person wouldn't have conflicts of interest like being compensated based on how much money you invest with him or her.

    Here are some criteria to consider in choosing a financial services provider...are they:

    1) Independent (not affiliated with a Wall Street brokerage or insurance company)

    2) Skilled (strong educational and technical background, not just a salesperson)

    3) Experienced in real estate (personally invests in real estate)

    4) Fiduciary (registered investment adviser)

    5) Fee only (no commissions or kickbacks accepted)

    6) No required investments/deposits (you pay for advice, not products)

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 366 posts · 283 votes
    8y
    Dan Mahoney that is a great list of things to consider when selecting an external financial advisor. I screenshot it and will keep in mind for future. Steve Vaughan really interesting to hear your perspective as both a real estate investor and finance person. It’s amazing how much better your real estate did vs funds 20:1! You all have given me a lot to think about.
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.