Terrible Sewage back up--how to handle with tenant?

Allentown, Pennsylvania
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Terrible Sewage back up--how to handle with tenant?

Jordan Sachs
Member since 2022 · 32 posts · 17 votes

Hi all! So I have a tenant living in a single family house. Apparently there is a terrible sewage back up in the basement and it's going to cost $4k to remedy. She never reported it to me or my management company but the smell was so bad that her neighbors finally reported it to the management company and to the city! She hasn't paid her rent yet this month and her lease says she's responsible for sewer issues. I sort of suspect she did't report it since she hadn't paid her rent. She's a nice older lady, definitely low income and I've been super lenient with her about her rent previously but I'm not happy about paying $4k to fix this problem that she clearly let go. Any suggestions on how to handle this? Would you bill it back to her? Evict her? Just eat it? I'm kind of clueless here. I'd hate to charge her $4k but I'm also quite sure if this had been brought to management's attention much earlier we could have avoided this massive clean up. Any advice would be appreciated and thank you in advance!

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
3y
Quote from @Jordan Sachs:

This is what happens when you make tenants financially responsible for maintenance. They can't afford it - or don't want to pay for it - so they refuse to report it. Now you have a $400 problem that turned into a $4,000 problem.

Yes, you should get rid of the Tenant. You should also change your lease so it complies with general Landlord-Tenant law and makes you responsible for ordinary maintenance. The tenant should only be responsible if they abuse or neglect, or if they fail to report a maintenance issue that then causes additional problems that could have been prevented by timely reporting.

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  • Jonathan GreeneBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Madison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y

    There is a difference between a plumbing issue and a sewer issue. I can see plumbing issues being on the tenant if they are flushing the wrong stuff or careless, but sewer line issues are never going to be a tenant's responsibility as the line from your house to the street can be cracked by trees (or blocked by debris or from what tenant's flush).

    A backflow into the house indicates a stoppage so the tenant has either clogged it, which would not cost 4k, or the line is obstructed or broken between the house and the street, which a full replacement where I am is 15k.

    What's the 4k repair for?

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  • Kim Meredith HamptonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · St Petersburg · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    I’m confused, what is the problem with the sewage, and how do you make a tenant responsible for this? I’m trying to understand this? Do you mean if she backs up a toilet?

    Sewage pipes, drain fields etc… are the responsibility of the owner

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  • Mohammed Rahman
    Real Estate Broker · New York, NY · Member since 2020 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    Hey @Jordan Sachs - sorry to hear of the situation you're in right now! I'm going to glance over the other comments here that are asking you to explain the $4k cost and why you would think the tenant is responsible for the sewer issue since it's a structural responsibility of the landlord. 

    In this instance, I think you would agree that you could have done a better job of managing expectations with the tenant. You've already given up your authority by being lenient with rent in the past and any tenant in this scenario would likely want to push the boundary of what else they can get away with. Even if she is a nicer old lady, it doesn't mean she's a bad person - would you want to pay for something if you could simply get away with not paying for it?

    I would first explore the extent of the damage from different vendors - one plumber quoting you $4k for a "Sewer problem" that could be a clogged pipe vs. a broken line is a big difference in costs. Once you're certain that the cost is assessed accurately, then you can decide where the issue is. If it truly is caused by the tenant's negligence, then you should be able to bill her for it as in the lease it should say that the tenant is responsible for any damages caused by their own recklessness. 

    If it's a structural issue with the piping, the tenant isn't responsible. Sorry :( 

    Good luck and feel free to connect if you have more questions! 

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  • Jordan Sachs
    OP
    Member since 2022 · 32 posts · 17 votes
    3y

    Sorry, I wasn't very clear! The $4k is basically to clean up the basement because there is a ton of sewage in there and it needs to be pumped and sanitized and it also includes unclogging the drain. My point with the tenant is that she failed to tell anyone about the issue until it got so bad the neighbors actually reported it. If it had been reported immediately then I'm sure the cost to address it and clean it up would be much less.

    When I say I've been lenient before basically she has paid her rent several weeks late or paid in installments. She has always paid though and has paid late fees each time she was late. I don't think she's trying to push her limits and I can't imagine who would want to live in a house that reeks of sewage. The whole thing is disgusting and disturbing. Obviously if it is found that there is a back up due to her negligence (wipes, debris being thrown down drains, etc) she will be assessed but is there any liability here given the fact that she waited until the basement literally filled up with sewage? She even has belongings down there that are destroyed now.

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  • Carini Rochester
    Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 576 posts · 358 votes
    3y

    @Jordan Sachs I think you were quite clear from the beginning that the tenant was at fault for not reporting the problem. I didn't think you were saying that the tenant needed to be expected to be responsible for the clogged lateral (unless is was her improperly flushed debris that clogged it.) You might get the municipality to declare the house unlivable until cleaned and sanitized. That would get the tenant out (perhaps the Red Cross or some other organization in the area has funding for temporary emergency housing.) Contact your insurance company, make sure the tenant is contacting her renter's insurance adjuster. If she moves back in after the clean-up, I would not extend the lease.

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  • Jordan Sachs
    OP
    Member since 2022 · 32 posts · 17 votes
    3y

    Thank you!

    0Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jordan Sachs:

    This is what happens when you make tenants financially responsible for maintenance. They can't afford it - or don't want to pay for it - so they refuse to report it. Now you have a $400 problem that turned into a $4,000 problem.

    Yes, you should get rid of the Tenant. You should also change your lease so it complies with general Landlord-Tenant law and makes you responsible for ordinary maintenance. The tenant should only be responsible if they abuse or neglect, or if they fail to report a maintenance issue that then causes additional problems that could have been prevented by timely reporting.

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  • Will Fraser
    Real Estate Broker · Salt Lake City & Oklahoma City · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Well said, Nathan!

    This is one of the ironies of great management -- it seems like it would be great for the tenant to be liable for everything, but a certain percentage of the time small problems become big ones that negates the benefit across the whole portfolio :( 

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y

    A couple other points:

    1. Why hasn't your management company already answered this question for you?

    2. Why has your PM kept a tenant that pays late or pays in installments? That's a red flag that more bad things are coming your way and should be nipped in the bud.

    3. This is the 20th day of the month and rent is unpaid. Why hasn't your PM started eviction?

    4. Your lease says she's responsible for sewer issues, so why are you asking if she's responsible for sewer issues?

    5. Even if the clog is natural and not her fault, she is definitely liable for failing to report it and allowing it to get this bad.

    If it were me, I would give her two choices: be out by 1/31/2023 or face an eviction and you'll come after her for unpaid rent and the sewage bill. I suspect she will leave.

    Tell your PM to up their standards. Rent is due on the first day of the month. You can start the eviction process one day after rent is late. You normally wouldn't do this the first time someone is late, but after they've been late 2-3 times, it's time to crack the whip or get rid of them.

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  • Andrew B.
    Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    You've gotten some good advice so I'm going to throw a devil's advocate opinion in here. As we age (im not sure how old this tenant is), we lose some of our abilities like sense of smell and ability to walk up and down stairs. Is it possible, this tenant truly didn't smell the issue? Does she have any reason to go in the basement on a periodic basis? I could see an older tenant choosing to just stop going downstairs because it's difficult and they have no reason too. At the end of the day, it wasn't the tenant that caused the backup, so you may want to err on the side of caution. 

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  • Jordan Sachs
    OP
    Member since 2022 · 32 posts · 17 votes
    3y

    Thanks for all your posts. I'm pretty new to this and definitely learning as I go. I have three properties and have had them for only about 1.5 years so I haven't encountered many issues before (although I did have to evict a tenant previously). I'm not sure why my management company hasn't mentioned eviction but I also don't really care to evict an elderly lady who pays her rent even if she is a couple weeks late. I think this is maybe the third time it's happened but she has always paid. I may be her landlord but I am also a compassionate person who doesn't care to throw an old lady and her cat out on her ***!

    My property management company also had the tenant renew their standard lease which states they are responsible for sewage issues and is legally compliant. She is NOT responsible for the general maintenance of the property. Any time issues have arisen I have paid for them and would not expect her to be responsible for general maintenance. I guess I'm waiting to see why this back up resulted. If its a result of her negligence (putting things down the drain, etc) then I would hold her responsible. My main concern here is that she didn't report it. Sure, it's possible she didn't smell it but her son lives with her and she has another son who comes over with her grandchildren. If neighbors were smelling this so badly that they called the city I can't see how it's possible that no one smelled it. 

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  • Bob S.
    Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jordan Sachs:

    Hi all! So I have a tenant living in a single family house. Apparently there is a terrible sewage back up in the basement and it's going to cost $4k to remedy. She never reported it to me or my management company but the smell was so bad that her neighbors finally reported it to the management company and to the city! She hasn't paid her rent yet this month and her lease says she's responsible for sewer issues. I sort of suspect she did't report it since she hadn't paid her rent. She's a nice older lady, definitely low income and I've been super lenient with her about her rent previously but I'm not happy about paying $4k to fix this problem that she clearly let go. Any suggestions on how to handle this? Would you bill it back to her? Evict her? Just eat it? I'm kind of clueless here. I'd hate to charge her $4k but I'm also quite sure if this had been brought to management's attention much earlier we could have avoided this massive clean up. Any advice would be appreciated and thank you in advance!


     Just like in Cleveland the sewer lines are old. We spend about 8k to replace the line from basement to the street. 4k not really sure what they are doing. If they are just snaking it you are getting ripped off . 

    Get other estimates, and BTW this will be your cost, 

    1Reply
  • Jordan Sachs
    OP
    Member since 2022 · 32 posts · 17 votes
    3y

    $4k is to clean the basement and snake. The basement is literally filled with sewage and it needs to be cleaned and sanitized unfortunately.

    0Reply
  • Leo R.
    Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
    3y

    @Jordan Sachs it sounds like there are a couple separate issues:

    First is the issue that the property had a major problem that would be apparent to any tenant, and the tenant did nothing to notify you or the PM about the problem--thereby making the problem even worse. You should have terms in your lease that require tenants to immediately report all issues--particularly time-sensitive issues like flooding/sewage backups. If a tenant fails to report such a serious issue, it's usually more than enough justification to look into eviction options and retain the deposit (depending on local laws). If the tenant can't be bothered to report a sewage backup so severe that neighbors smell it, that's a sign of serious incompetence/negligence--which is a major liability to you.

    Second is the issue of what caused the backup. Sewer backups are often caused by tenant misuse, but not always. It is possible that the sewer backup was not the tenant's fault--for instance, tree roots are a common cause of sewer backups. Sometimes sewer mains deteriorate and collapse. So, you need to know what caused the problem, and that will presumably impact how you handle the situation. However, even if it was not the tenant's fault, the tenant's lack of reporting the issue still shows a level of incompetence/negligence that puts you at serious risk--and which more than justifies looking into eviction options (or, at minimum, not renewing their lease).

    And, as others have mentioned, there are a litany of other serious red flags here from the tenant and the PM that justify corrective action on your part. What @Nathan Gesner said is 100% correct--you'd be well-advised to follow his suggestions.

    Good luck!

    1Reply
  • Lilly ShamamBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · NJ · Member since 2023 · 13 posts · 3 votes
    3y

    Have you checked with your insurance company? Find out if the problem is on the city property outside. Some insurance companies have a smaller print on what they cover depending on how old the pipes are. Worth looking into.

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  • Bud Gaffney
    Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    @Jordan Sachs call a certified drain specialist. Take care of this the correct way. Trust me from my experience trying to cheap out on it.

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  • Jay ThomasPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 715 votes
    3y

    When it comes to Real Estate, plumbing and sewer line issues are two very different things. Plumbing problems can usually be attributed to a tenant's carelessness or incorrect disposal of items, and in such cases the tenant could be liable for the repair costs. On the other hand, sewer line issues are generally caused by outside factors like tree roots or debris buildup, and would never be a tenant's responsibility.

    In cases where there is backflow into the house, it likely indicates a problem with the line from your house to the street (such as cracks or blockages). Depending on where you live, full replacement of this line can cost up to 15k, which is much higher than 4k. It pays to know what the issue is before making any decisions about who to hold responsible for the repair.

    Remember, a plumbing issue and a sewer line issue are two very different things when it comes to Real Estate! Being aware of the differences can save you time and money in the long run.

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  • Scott Mac
    Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    I have seen this before.

    Sewer lines under the road run down hill.

    10 houses away something blocked the main sewer line under the road.

    All of the houses flushing and drains behind the blockage filled the line.

    (SOME) basements flooded over a matter of hours--some a little, some up to the windows, some none.

    Rather than pump it out (where???), the city recommended leave it until the line was cleared in 48 hours, then the disgusting mess receded.

    Furnace, water heater, kids toys, anything in storage in the maxi-flooded basements was contaminated.

    This was caused by someone way down the line, and some other blockage in the main sewer line combining to clog it up under the road.

    Just my 2 cents.

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  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jordan Sachs:

    Hi all! So I have a tenant living in a single family house. Apparently there is a terrible sewage back up in the basement and it's going to cost $4k to remedy. She never reported it to me or my management company but the smell was so bad that her neighbors finally reported it to the management company and to the city! She hasn't paid her rent yet this month and her lease says she's responsible for sewer issues. I sort of suspect she did't report it since she hadn't paid her rent. She's a nice older lady, definitely low income and I've been super lenient with her about her rent previously but I'm not happy about paying $4k to fix this problem that she clearly let go. Any suggestions on how to handle this? Would you bill it back to her? Evict her? Just eat it? I'm kind of clueless here. I'd hate to charge her $4k but I'm also quite sure if this had been brought to management's attention much earlier we could have avoided this massive clean up. Any advice would be appreciated and thank you in advance!


     You probably have to replace the main stack to the street. All of this would be your cost. Welcome to the biz.

    2Reply
  • Carlos Ptriawan
    Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    I guess the most practical aspect of it is to have a sewer camera inspection first to determine where the fault is. I recently had this problem but I know it's not a tenant problem, it's a root tree problem from giant tree and older pipe, luckily we can still waterjet the backup. At this time in your case it's not clear who is the owner of the  problem, but my tenant is very proactive. This type of thing is very easy for 'blaming game' to move around, I don't think eviction would solve the problem if the root cause is something else.

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  • Phillip AustinPro Member
    Property Manager · Denver, CO · Member since 2023 · 236 posts · 204 votes
    3y

    @Nathan Gesner and @Leo R. have give you the best advice, in my opinion. Your management company should definitely be providing you the answers.

    You have 2 separate issues:

    1. Mitigating damage from a sewer backup

    2. Tenant failing to report a maintenance issue

    It sounds like you're mostly seeking advice on the second issue and the answer lies within your lease. Is there a provision within the lease requiring the tenant to report maintenance issues in a timely manner? If there is such a provision, then you need to determine what to bill the tenant because, chances are, she cannot afford a $4K repair bill. 

    If there is no such provision, you need to take the loss. Then, fire the PM for failing to include standard lease terms in their lease agreements.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jordan Sachs:

    She's three weeks late on rent (not the first time) and she caused $4,000 in damages. The sewage smell in your basement was so bad that the neighbors reported it. And your response to our advice is to defend the Tenant?

    When you are a Landlord, it's best to rent to people that can afford your rental and maintain it. If you choose to keep this Tenant, you must accept responsibility for the problems she causes. And I suspect there will be more.

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  • Bob S.
    Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jordan Sachs:

    Sorry, I wasn't very clear! The $4k is basically to clean up the basement because there is a ton of sewage in there and it needs to be pumped and sanitized and it also includes unclogging the drain. My point with the tenant is that she failed to tell anyone about the issue until it got so bad the neighbors actually reported it. If it had been reported immediately then I'm sure the cost to address it and clean it up would be much less.

    When I say I've been lenient before basically she has paid her rent several weeks late or paid in installments. She has always paid though and has paid late fees each time she was late. I don't think she's trying to push her limits and I can't imagine who would want to live in a house that reeks of sewage. The whole thing is disgusting and disturbing. Obviously if it is found that there is a back up due to her negligence (wipes, debris being thrown down drains, etc) she will be assessed but is there any liability here given the fact that she waited until the basement literally filled up with sewage? She even has belongings down there that are destroyed now.


     4k to clean and snake, 100% rip off, PLEASE get other estimates. I have been dealing with this for many years. This should be about 1500 -2k That would include, remove, clean, paint/kilz , and snake, 

    All the best 

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  • Albert Hasson
    Investor · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2012 · 366 posts · 214 votes
    3y

    You have gotten a lot of good advice and a lot of harsh criticisms.  I believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a compassionate landlord!  I wouldn’t move to evict this lady.  I would work with her to get her caught up on rent as she’s been a reliable (albeit late) payer of rent.  I own 26 houses and inevitably have one or two that pays rent late for one reason or another.  At this point I welcome it because I get $75 late fee and $10/day penalty.  One of my tenants this month was 14 days late (highly unusual for her) and just sent me a check for $215!   People will criticize this post and say “you’re running a business not a charity”.  I don’t run a charity but I realize that s**t happens sometimes and try to give people the benefit of the doubt. There are many ways to run a successful business, you have to chose what works for you.  Good luck.

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  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 13k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    3y

    This should be billed to the tenant or they will not learn anything

    Change your lease as Nathan suggests.

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